Kaworu Nagisa and his intentions

[DatDude]

Shinji meets Kaworu at a time when he has no one. Misato distant, Rei's not human, Asuka run away/ ina coma, and he's lost his friends. Then he meets Kaworu some one that tells him just waht he wanted to hear. " I love you" Must have been nice know some one cared even if it was just a total stranger. The shape Shinji was in mentaly he probly didn't care.

Then we get to the point of my rant. We find out what Kaworu really is and he offer Shinji a choice. TO kill him or he'd kill the human race. Killing Kaworu put Shinji in the state he was in during EoE, easy to break when the eva series put unit one on the cross so to speak.

Do you think his goal was to assule Shinji mental like thins and make him easy pry for selees efforts ?

Do you think this was Kaworu's intention to harm Shinji this way?

[Hand of God]

yes because you attack the worrior from the inside in the heart

[AchtungAffen]

I don't know about Kaworu's own intentions, but I have a guess on SEELE's ones on Kaworu. I believe Kaworu was the ace in sleeve card for SEELE, as by holding the last Angel instrumentality could not be accomplished by anyone, not them, less Gendou. So, by holding Kaworu they controlled the times of instrumentality, could move it forward or slow it. So, SEELE's intentions when sending Kaworu was to get him killed to start instrumentalization, in hopes it would be too early or too late for Gendou's plans.

[thewayneiac]

I don't know about Kaworu's own intentions, but I have a guess on SEELE's ones on Kaworu. I believe Kaworu was the ace in sleeve card for SEELE, as by holding the last Angel instrumentality could not be accomplished by anyone, not them, less Gendou. So, by holding Kaworu they controlled the times of instrumentality, could move it forward or slow it. So, SEELE's intentions when sending Kaworu was to get him killed to start instrumentalization, in hopes it would be too early or too late for Gendou's plans.

I think you have half their motive figured out; I believe they also hoped that Rei would learn her true nature from Kaworu, which would also be detrimental to Gendo's plans. Shin-seiki has even speculated that Kaworu was play-acting when he claimed to have mistaken Lilith for Adam, because he wanted Rei to know it was Lilith. (This would explain the seeming contradiction introduced into 24' by having him make this mistake after Seele tells him Adam has been united with Gendo.) I call this the Casablanca theory: "I'm shocked, Shinji, shocked to find Lilith here!"

Dat Dude: I would say no. Maybe Manga Kaworu would do something underhanded like that, but Anime Kaworu's motives are pure.

[AchtungAffen]

Why would it be detrimental to Gendou for Rei to know about Lillith?

[bp32]

Dat Dude: I would say no. Maybe Manga Kaworu would do something underhanded like that, but Anime Kaworu's motives are pure.

What do you mean by "pure"? It seems to me he is conflicted from the start--he is aware of what he must do--reunite with Adam, which would seal the destruction of the human race. Even though he knows this is what must be done is genuinley curious about humans and their emotions. He comes to "love" Shinji and the lilum--hence his act of self sacrifice at the end. I just don't know what pure means in this context--do I believe he was trying to form a bond with Shinji so that it would be harder for Shinji to harm him in the end--no (even though it is certainly a wonderful strategic move), but he was certainly prepared from the begining to bring about an end to the human race...

[DatDude]

If he really cared about Shinji he would have spared him the pain of killing a friend.

HE was SUPPOSED to be the angel of free will and the only choice he offered Shinji was kill me or I kill your entire race.

This was my original impression of the character and as of yet i've seen nothing that changes my mind. EoE just proved that Shinji was happy to see him but the condition of Shinji's mind was an issue at that point.

Im not even sure it was him at the end with Rei or just Shinji's mental impressions of them.

I know im the guy that started the thread about over anlyzing things in eva but this is somthing that still has me confused.

[bp32]

Being the angel of free will had to do with Kaworu, not with the choices he offered others (even though he did offer Shinji a choice in a manner of speaking). Unlike other Angels who seemingly search out Adam (yeah, I know this is problematic) and seek only to reunite with him, Kaworu makes a choice at a moment in time which other Angels would not/could not have--to allow the lilum to be the chosen race, to survive. That in my mind is what his character is about--his choice, not the one he leaves to Shinji...

[DatDude]

And the fact that he was smart/wise ehough to let humans live but not enought to think " Gee I think crushing me like a grape would hurt Shinji that kid I said I loed yesterday."

If he was just like Rei as he clamed he could have done himself with little trouble and hurt shinjji less.

Heck he could have tryed to help the poor kid you do that when you " love "some one right? All he did was set Shinji up for a fall. Shinji was made of glass be this point in the story and Kaworu is the one that broke him.

[bp32]

And the fact that he was smart/wise ehough to let humans live but not enought to think " Gee I think crushing me like a grape would hurt Shinji that kid I said I loed yesterday."

If he was just like Rei as he clamed he could have done himself with little trouble and hurt shinjji less.

Heck he could have tryed to help the poor kid you do that when you " love "some one right? All he did was set Shinji up for a fall. Shinji was made of glass be this point in the story and Kaworu is the one that broke him.

Since when does free will entail making choices that are entirely smart/wise? It is not a prerequisite for free will--in fact, it is our free will that is the cause of great pain and suffering around the world. Our actions have consequences, many times terrible ones that were not considered. Free will simply means making a choice for oneself, it does not imply that the actions one takes will be completely smart/wise or otherwise the best possible option...

[DatDude]

So he let Shinji kill him because he loved him?

Are you saying that " gee killing me will hurt Shinji" never passed through pale head of his?

[Reichu]

Why would it be detrimental to Gendou for Rei to know about Lillith?

Because it results in her betraying him...?

[bp32]

So he let Shinji kill him because he loved him?

Are you saying that " gee killing me will hurt Shinji" never passed through pale head of his?

Maybe, I don't know--if he wanted to cause Shinji real pain he could have simply tried to return to Adam and cause 3rd Impact--instead he surrenders himself to Shinji and allows Shinji to stop him--even though he is compelled to return to Adam he is able for a moment to excercise free will and change the course of history--I am not sure why the causing of pain is such a problem in this regard--I fail to see how this was an elaborate plot by Kaworu to mentally persecute Shinji--if anything he was giving Shinji and the lilum a chance through his death--it aint pretty, but it is better than the alternative...

[AchtungAffen]

Why would it be detrimental to Gendou for Rei to know about Lillith?

Because it results in her betraying him...?

But, was Rei knowing about Lilith the immediate cause why Rei betrayed Gendou? I always thought that she betrayed him because she had to choose (during that specifical moment) wether to be with Shinji or be with Gendou, and chose Shinji.

[DatDude]

So he let Shinji kill him because he loved him?

Are you saying that " gee killing me will hurt Shinji" never passed through pale head of his?

Maybe, I don't know--if he wanted to cause Shinji real pain he could have simply tried to return to Adam and cause 3rd Impact--instead he surrenders himself to Shinji and allows Shinji to stop him--even though he is compelled to return to Adam he is able for a moment to excercise free will and change the course of history--I am not sure why the causing of pain is such a problem in this regard--I fail to see how this was an elaborate plot by Kaworu to mentally persecute Shinji--if anything he was giving Shinji and the lilum a chance through his death--it aint pretty, but it is better than the alternative...

Kaworu was Seele's answer to Rei and they were planning to use unit-one as mediean to lilith to start thrid impact. In order to do this the pilot needed to be broken mental wise. I don't think it was conwincidence that the straw that broke the shinjis back was Seele's creation.

[Reichu]

But, was Rei knowing about Lilith the immediate cause why Rei betrayed Gendou? I always thought that she betrayed him because she had to choose (during that specifical moment) wether to be with Shinji or be with Gendou, and chose Shinji.

If she had not acquired knowledge of her true self, would it have occurred to her to ABSORB Gendo's arm, REGENERATE her missing one, then LEVITATE up to Lilith and RETURN to her? Hmm....

[thewayneiac]

Do you think his goal was to assule Shinji mental like thins and make him easy pry for selees efforts ?

No, what you need to remember is that Kaworu doesn't know what Seele's real plans are. They've convinced him that they are siding with the Angels, calling them the true successors, and man the false successors. As far as he knows, they sent him to unite with Adam and cause the destructive version of 3I which would wipe out all Lilith-based life permanently.

but he was certainly prepared from the begining to bring about an end to the human race...

If he decided it was the right thing to do. As the Angel of Free Will, he had the choice to go against his instinct to unite with Adam (at least momentarily). He was plainly trying to learn all he could about the Lilim in order to make the right choice.

If he really cared about Shinji he would have spared him the pain of killing a friend.

I think the idea is that there was no other way. That even the Angel of Free Will would soon be fored by his instincts to unite with Adam unless killed.

So he let Shinji kill him because he loved him?

Are you saying that " gee killing me will hurt Shinji" never passed through pale head of his?

Quite possibly it didn't. It's not clear if he understood just how messed-up Shinji was.

Kaworu was Seele's answer to Rei and they were planning to use unit-one as mediean to lilith to start thrid impact. In order to do this the pilot needed to be broken mental wise. I don't think it was conwincidence that the straw that broke the shinjis back was Seele's creation.

If the pilot were neccessary to cause 3I, then the attacking soldiers would not have had orders to kill the pilots. Seele, by this point is really just rolling with the punches. They try to kill the pilots, then say that Shinji's crushed Ego will cause 3I. They curse that the Lance is lost to them, then act like they were expecting its return all along. They remind me of PeeWee Herman crashing his bicycle. I keep expecting them to say "We meant to do that."

[Reichu]

No, what you need to remember is that Kaworu doesn't know what Seele's real plans are. They've convinced him that they are siding with the Angels, calling them the true successors, and man the false successors. As far as he knows, they sent him to unite with Adam and cause the destructive version of 3I which would wipe out all Lilith-based life permanently.

Wasn't that an awfully risky move on Seele's part? Or did it not matter to them, because the outcome was all written down anyway? (Not that their scenario is written down in stone. :P )

[AchtungAffen]

But, was Rei knowing about Lilith the immediate cause why Rei betrayed Gendou? I always thought that she betrayed him because she had to choose (during that specifical moment) wether to be with Shinji or be with Gendou, and chose Shinji.

If she had not acquired knowledge of her true self, would it have occurred to her to ABSORB Gendo's arm, REGENERATE her missing one, then LEVITATE up to Lilith and RETURN to her? Hmm....

Good point.

[houtaru]

I always thought that Kaworu wanted to get close to Shinji in order to put him off balance so he could join Adam when the time came. When he realized Adam was Lilth, and got to know human emotion through Shinji, he changed his mind, and wanted to die so Shinji could live on. I could be wrong about that.

I always thought the meaning of that scene when Shinji is holding Kaworu in his hand is that Shinji must kill his only friend out of respect for himself (rather than the whole world). Shinji never thought himself worthy or loved himself, but I thought Kaworu was trying to make Shinji see his own value, and protect himself, and his own race.

Am I overthinking?