Rebuild Ending encourages viewers to embrace reality less than the EOE ending

[Asunji_Yuko]

For the sake of this discussion, I consider EOE to be the true ending to the original series rather than an AU unto itself since it's closer to what Annual Hideki wanted to the original ending anyway.

The final rebuild movie ends with all of Shinji's former reality, or rather its painful parts like the Eva and the angels, pretty much erased. Some chick likes him for unclear reasons and says "let's go!" Cue credits.

Despite many claiming this encourages viewers to move on in the real world, it actually sends the opposite message. Reason being, this wasn't Shinji's reality, it was an idealized world. Shinji's reality was one damaged by multiple impact events and one that really did have alien kaiju, EVAs, and the pain of loss.

In contrast, Shinji has to face the real world in the original i.e. EOE ending. Not 'real' in the sense of resembling ours, but 'real' in the sense that there's no quick fix to most of what happened. There's a sense that nearly everyone he knew is dead because we don't see them but rather their graves. I get that Yui said anyone could return, but it's more important what we're shown rather than what we're told.

Thus, the ending of the Rebuilds was actually more of an escapist fantasy than the original EOE ending. And yet another reason they are inferior.

[ChrisTamv]

I think that is a very surface level interpretation of the 3.0+1.0 ending.

Shinji has been facing the real world in this movie from the moment he pulled himself up again after Rei Q's death, and in the end he finds himself as the master of an Impact, wielding the same magical powers as Shinji in EoE. This time, he decides not to basically kill everyone, but give his own life so that every other (innocent) person can live in a world where Evas don't exist from then on (I know that some people believe Shinji wished that Evas never existed in the first place, but in my opinion at least that's by far the least plausible interpretation of the ending. Based on what the characters say and what I saw on screen, absolutely nothing was erased from the Eva world outside of the Eva Units themselves). Emphasis on "give his own" life, because if Yui and Gendo hadn't unexpectedly stepped in to take his place in the last moment, Shinji would had gone through with what he started and selflessly sacrifice himself for everyone else's sake. The fact that this intervention happens, and naturally, where he subsequently ends up and with who were not planned by Shinji. Therefore, considering his actions as escapist is utterly illogical when his actual intentions were anything but that for most of the movie's runtime.

Whether or not the ending itself is escapist depends on whether the character behaviors it portrays as good / correct are escapist or not. What Shinji does here, no matter of your specific interpretation of the ending, is completely selfless, and just to be clear I consider the idea that I've seen thrown around a few times that Shinji's self - sacrifice itself is "escapist" and "coward" as offensively nonsensical, especially when considering the alternative ways the ending could had played out. Now, if some people think that Shinji deciding not to use the divine power he's given responsibly this time around, in order to give everyone a better future, except his own self of course as in any case he won't be around to enjoy the fruits of his wish, is enough to invalidate the genuinely anti - escapist messaging of literally everything that came prior, well I don't think there's anything I can do to change their minds lol.

[C.T.1290]

Emphasis on "give his own" life, because if Yui and Gendo hadn't unexpectedly stepped in to take his place in the last moment, Shinji would had gone through with what he started and selflessly sacrifice himself for everyone else's sake.

I wondered how everyone would react if Shinji had gone through with his sacrifice; Asuka, Mari, even the crew of WILLIE.

Asuka would no doubt be grateful for Shinji freeing her from the curse of the EVA and gave her a normal human body, then she would wonder “At what cost?”. Mari would have also been devastated of his lost.

[Asunji_Yuko]

I think that is a very surface level interpretation of the 3.0+1.0 ending.

Shinji has been facing the real world in this movie from the moment he pulled himself up again after Rei Q's death, and in the end he finds himself as the master of an Impact, wielding the same magical powers as Shinji in EoE. This time, he decides not to basically kill everyone, but give his own life so that every other (innocent) person can live in a world where Evas don't exist from then on (I know that some people believe Shinji wished that Evas never existed in the first place, but in my opinion at least that's by far the least plausible interpretation of the ending. Based on what the characters say and what I saw on screen, absolutely nothing was erased from the Eva world outside of the Eva Units themselves). Emphasis on "give his own" life, because if Yui and Gendo hadn't unexpectedly stepped in to take his place in the last moment, Shinji would had gone through with what he started and selflessly sacrifice himself for everyone else's sake. The fact that this intervention happens, and naturally, where he subsequently ends up and with who were not planned by Shinji. Therefore, considering his actions as escapist is utterly illogical when his actual intentions were anything but that for most of the movie's runtime.

Didn't say his actions were escapist, I said the ending was.

Since he got his life back instantly anyway, it's no different than just getting everything he wanted without having to give anything up.

[kuribo-04]

I posted about this elsewhere on the site, bit I really don't thini the ending scene is meant to be read literally. It's about Anno and the audience moving on, with the rest of the Eva cast (other than protag Shinji and newish character Mari) leaving the frame on a train.

[Archer]

I posted about this elsewhere on the site, bit I really don't thini the ending scene is meant to be read literally. It's about Anno and the audience moving on, with the rest of the Eva cast (other than protag Shinji and newish character Mari) leaving the frame on a train.

I agree that that’s (probably) the intent behind the scene, but that doesn’t excuse how badly it reads on a first (and second, and third, and….) watch. Like it honestly baffles me that this made it past editing, there’s a hundred ways you could tweak the scene to keep the whole “moving on from Eva” idea WITHOUT the (hopefully) unintended implication that Shinji just created a fantasy perfect world to chill with his waifu.

Honestly, I think any ending that doesn’t end up with Shinji unambiguously back in the real world actively helping to rebuild is still escapist. The idea that you can just sacrifice your life to magically fix your mistakes and all will be forgiven is itself an escapist fantasy.

[ChrisTamv]

Didn't say his actions were escapist, I said the ending was.

Since he got his life back instantly anyway, it's no different than just getting everything he wanted without having to give anything up.

Yes, and as I said, logically the ending itself can only be considered as escapist if the character behaviors it portrays as good / correct are escapist. Shinji's behavior clearly wasn't escapist, and according to almost all interpretations of the ending, including the most plausible one by far, Shinji's wish erased nothing outside of the Evas themselves from that point on. Meaning, many of Shinji's loved ones remain permanently dead, and the ones that are actually still alive are literal universes apart from Shinji. Shinji even misses them so much that he sees visions of them at the train station, so he neither got his life back completely, nor did he not have to sacrifice anything.

there’s a hundred ways you could tweak the scene to keep the whole “moving on from Eva” idea WITHOUT the (hopefully) unintended implication that Shinji just created a fantasy perfect world to chill with his waifu.

Shinji never wished for such a thing though, things aren't even close to perfect in the end, and there's even a good argument to be made that Shinji and Mari aren't even together in the end. You are completely correct that the ending could had been written in many different, much simpler / less ambiguous ways that would had most probably been even more positively received by fans. This as well as the fact that the actual narrative basically ends the moment Shinji makes his wish and Gendo, Yui take his place make it even more apparent in my eyes that in this segment the subtext (and especially the metanarrative) is the dominant element. It's like a "bonus" ending, here the Evas represent the Evangelion franchise itself and a tool for escapism more than the Units themselves.

[Archer]

I’m not arguing about what Anno intended by the ending, I’m arguing that it’s shockingly poorly written because what the text seems to imply is completely antithetical to the presumed authorial intent.

e.g.

Shinji never wished for such a thing though

That may not have been the intent, but it certainly LOOKS like he wished for a “world without Eva” and ended up in a “world without Eva”. If this easy mixup was intentional then Anno is too galaxy-brained for me. If it’s not intentional, then it’s just shitty writing.

You are completely correct that the ending could had been written in many different, much simpler / less ambiguous ways that would had most probably been even more positively received by fans

The problem with the ending isn’t that it’s ambiguous, it’s actually the complete opposite - the text is entirely unambiguous that Shinji created a new reality for himself, to the extent that the most charitable interpretation is that it’s nothing more than a dying vision. So unambiguous that the only way to reconcile it with the message of the movie is to posit that it never really happens at all, and is purely 100% metatextual.

Which, again for the record, I do agree that that was (probably) in the intended interpretation. My issue is more with how ridiculously poorly it’s conveyed.

[ChrisTamv]

That may not have been the intent, but it certainly LOOKS like he wished for a “world without Eva” and ended up in a “world without Eva”. If this easy mixup was intentional then Anno is too galaxy-brained for me. If it’s not intentional, then it’s just shitty writing.

I also think this was intentional, all I'm saying is that when the context is factored in the text isn't in fact antithetical to the intended authorial intent.

The problem with the ending isn’t that it’s ambiguous, it’s actually the complete opposite - the text is entirely unambiguous that Shinji created a new reality for himself, to the extent that the most charitable interpretation is that it’s nothing more than a dying vision.

Is it not ambiguous? The only thing here that even suggests that Shinji literally created a "new" world and didn't simply remove all Evas from then on, before ending up in a parallel reality that is hinted to have always existed beyond the Anti Universe is the use of the word "new" in this line:

"I'll just rewrite it to a world without Eva"
"A new world where people can live"

The meaning of the word "new" is ambiguous here, because pretty much everything else that's shown or said in the movie strongly suggests that it isn't being used literally, that the world being the same outside of all Evas vanishing from it from then on will equate to a "new" world being born.

Also, the interpretation that Shinji's wish concerned anyone but him and was his dying vision isn't charitable at all. It's probably one of the only things that's absolutely certain here, as everything he does and says confirms that he's planning to sacrifice himself.

[Archer]

We literally see him go into what appears to be an entirely new world at the end of the movie. If the language was intentionally chosen to trick the audience into believing that Shinji created a new world separate from the “main reality” of the story, then I truly don’t understand what Anno was going for. I do not understand how the story is improved by making the surface-level message completely opposite to the actual intended message.

Needing context to gain a full/deeper appreciation for the story is fine, but I should not need extranarrative context to understand that the message is actually a full 180 degrees from what the text seems to imply.

Also I mean being charitable to Anno as a writer that he wouldn’t intentionally write a movie whose message is what 3.0+1.0’s appears to be, not to Shinji as a character.

[Axx°N N.]

Some things I disagree with stated itt so far:

1)That a less convoluted ending would have led to more positive reception.
2) That Shinji ends up in the world he wished for.
3) That the ending isn't ambiguous.

My additions to each:

1) I don't think the mostly positive reception has anything to do with anything we see after Instrumentality. Based on reviews, I think positive reception is based mostly on the fact that the characters are released from miseries through unambiguous exposition. In my experience, general audiences are willing to overlook many things because their bigger priority, as compared to picking apart issues elsewhere using, like, critic-speak, is that they can tell what they just watched was intended to lift them up into a positive mood, as a kind of other-focused service. I've seen many, many people explicitly and articulately list flaws in the film but then say they didn't care because they just wanted the characters to end up happy.

2) I thought the consensus was that he remains in minus space, but the Eva-less world is for the other characters?

3) EoE was less ambiguous. We could parse the text and apply the logic it presented, and rest assured that this was the world we were in and people could return, and even though everything seems reduced to the most post-apocalyptic puddle of land imaginable, somehow things could all turn out well.

Thrice however suspends us in total limbo in regards to its physics for no discernible reason. An entire new universe is dumped on us at the end and none of its implications are explored to the degree the concept warrants, outside of functioning as another nth-degree escalation of prior elements and the same exact trump card of "we can show anything visually, psychedelic freakout or flashback" that Instrumentality already logically allowed. But as someone who found it hard to swallow NTE's unwillingness to actually explore and engage with the premise it presented, it's too big a pill to swallow that the minus space is dragged out and used so expediently as pure plot device.

I think the main problem with the ending sequence specifically is actually its ambiguity, or more exactly that the ambiguity is inelegant and unnecessary and doesn't service the narrative. Why be crystal clear with the state of the characters psychologically but maintain such a thick soup of confusion about where it is they are in space-time? Is it supposed to reinforce that Shinji should just be happy no matter his state of being is and that it matters more to be happy, enthusiastic, eager, etc., no questions asked, no matter what, as compared to questioning the state of things at all? Here's the problem: there's no way to parse. Is Shinji as happy-go-lucky as he would be if it were the real world he was in at the end, or does his happy-go-lucky nature rely on the fact that he knows through omniscience he's in an unreality, and so screw everything? Maybe that's a reasonable deduction, but there's no insight to how either of these states is reached in a human way, it's all explored in a "this screenplay is out of space" way; Shinji just snaps to what he needs to snap into in terms of perspective. Minus space might as well not exist. Groundhog Day has more depth, nuance and philosophical insight into this kind of headspace and how it would organically develop, as that's an example of a narrative actually utilizing and acknowledging and exploring the hell out of its premises.

All that aside, why compound all of that by being so reticent to show (and thus clearly demarcate) each world, and leave such a strange void? We don't see Asuka outside of her state of shock, or Toji and Hikari again, or anyone involved in the fiasco stretch their legs out in the wake and start to build back up. The narrative stops relying on exposition for no comprehensible reason or consistency. If there's something integral about the ending being ambiguous, outside of just "that's how you make a memorable ending!" screenwriting 101, why wasn't it important to avoid being so unambiguous in every single other scene?

[Konja7]

Honestly, i feel this thread was created in bad faith. I wouldn't go to a NGE/EoE section to open a thread about how bad I find its ending compared to NTE.

The meaning of the word "new" is ambiguous here, because pretty much everything else that's shown or said in the movie strongly suggests that it isn't being used literally, that the world being the same outside of all Evas vanishing from it from then on will equate to a "new" world being born.

This is true. It isn't implied Shinji created a new world.

We see Asuka (with an adult body) return to the Earth. We also see the Earth return to a normal (habitable) state. This wouldn't be necessary if Shinji was literally creating a new World.


The only weird thing is the Epilogue in the train station. That place is left to the interpretation of the audience.

My interpretation is that the train station is the Earth. Maybe a lot of time just passed before Mari could save Shinji from minus space.

[Archer]

2) I thought the consensus was that he remains in minus space, but the Eva-less world is for the other characters?

Well, it’s the specific nature of the minus-space. Is the “epilogue” taking place in a new world that he created there, or is it purely a “going into the beyond” afterlife type scene where Shinji and Mari dissolve into the minus space once leaving the “train station”?

[Axx°N N.]

Well, it’s the specific nature of the minus-space. Is the “epilogue” taking place in a new world that he created there, or is it purely a “going into the beyond” afterlife type scene where Shinji and Mari dissolve into the minus space once leaving the “train station”?

At this point I'm not entirely convinced that it literally doesn't matter, per intention. Picking apart anything rationally matters less than to take it on a purely visual level: the minus-space is a vehicle to take our 2D characters and jettison them into reality. Implications, follow-up, their existence as tangible characters be damned, what matters is the visual language. Or to put it another way, minus-space is an irrational zone and somewhat contradictory in nature, meaning that it's a non-plot place used as a plot device to render the plot device-less.

[Konja7]

Well, it’s the specific nature of the minus-space. Is the “epilogue” taking place in a new world that he created there, or is it purely a “going into the beyond” afterlife type scene where Shinji and Mari dissolve into the minus space once leaving the “train station”?

The beach is minus space, but we don't know if the train station is minus space too. That part is pretty ambiguous.

My interpretation was that the train station is already the Earth after Mari bring Shinji back (as she assure Misato).

[AlphaZero]

I find the decision to kill all units as opposed to giving them lilin bodies or any other form or let them live in their own space as a(I'm hoping unintentional) very evil message. These are cloned living beings that didn't have any autonomy against their own will because Seele decided to turn them into weapons. It comes off as if the end of their suffering is only possible through death. The same can be applied to the Angels being forced to have a deathmatch with the lilins. Which begs the question of why should I care for this version of Asuka then or at least her clone backstory? She gets the happy ending but the other cloned beings which I'd argue had a much worse existence get to be exterminated instead. It just comes off as very hypocritical. If the intention was indeed to kill them all instead of giving them new bodies that happened off screen. I know the event is for meta purposes but it still should make sense and be as morally good as possible without it.

If there was a moment where Shinji questions whether sacrificing himself is selfish or selfless but still goes through with it it would be less jarring at the very least. I agree that would be better if Shinji was explicitly shown helping rebuild the whole world like doing manual labor or anything else really as an epilogue.

I'd say at least the water did get reset or was replaced with brand new water otherwise how did it go from undrinkable(mixed with Angel core blood) to drinkable.

I'm personally more of the idea that the ending is not at all what it seems. That Shinji and Mari are actually back in the normal world, Yui didn't just push Shinji out of the Golgotha object but minus space as well and he came out of a sea that's close to the village instead, Mari then escapes as well using her unit and that's why she says she made it just in time as in she escaped minus space just in time instead. Then Shinji turns into his real age with his school uniform and the choker looking into the horizon seeing illusions of those close to him. Then Shinji and Mary run up the beach away from the sea towards the village. In other words the events happened it's just that we are seeing them through the lens of minus space. Like sea = railway track and everything beyond it.

[Axx°N N.]

That's one of many implications you can read into that NTE itself is really seriously unconcerned with. With what goes down in EoTV and EoE, Shinji is given pretty linear, binary things to realize, consider, and choose. But he's made the center of all potential in NTE, and there are so many implications to that and serious considerations that the plot really broadly glosses over so that it arrives where it wants to go regardless. Wishing away all Eva being the most sensible and meaningful course of action given that he can do anything isn't even itself justified with argument or a display of cause and effect. We're meant to just take it for granted and accept it contrary any evidence.

[ChrisTamv]

If the language was intentionally chosen to trick the audience into believing that Shinji created a new world separate from the “main reality” of the story, then I truly don’t understand what Anno was going for.

I don't think there was the intention to trick anyone. Everything suggests that Shinji didn't literally create a new world, so in my eyes the use of the phrase "new world" in the line I referenced before is used metaphorically and not literally. That's all.

I do not understand how the story is improved by making the surface-level message completely opposite to the actual intended message.

How is getting over Eva as a franchise that has become source of unhealthy escapism (even without extending it to unhealthy escapism through media in general which has been a message in development since 2.0), "completely opposite" to the intended message?

Needing context to gain a full/deeper appreciation for the story is fine, but I should not need extranarrative context to understand that the message is actually a full 180 degrees from what the text seems to imply.

Apologies if I'm missing something but I can't see what point you're getting at... You believe that the text here seems to imply that Shinji made an escapist wish in the end (and therefore that story's message here is escapist), correct? If so, I just can't see how that's the case, and none of the counterpoints I brought up in my first reply especially have to do with extra-narrative context. It's all textual context which mainly has to do with Shinji's character intentions.

I find the decision to kill all units as opposed to giving them lilin bodies or any other form or let them live in their own space as a(I'm hoping unintentional) very evil message. These are cloned living beings that didn't have any autonomy against their own will because Seele decided to turn them into weapons. It comes off as if the end of their suffering is only possible through death. The same can be applied to the Angels being forced to have a deathmatch with the lilins.

Not going to lie, while not really fitting with the rest of the ending it would had been pretty interesting if the film delved into this perspective more akin to the original. However it must be noted that even though Shinji can wish for anything he seems to only have one wish and everything else that happens seems to be a consequence of said single wish. The Angels are all already dead, so there's that, and I don't see how turning the Evas into Lilin or giving them their own living space could possible be a consequence of Shinji's wish.

But I guess you do have a point. It's technically a bit evil and hypocritical indeed.

If there was a moment where Shinji questions whether sacrificing himself is selfish or selfless but still goes through with it it would be less jarring at the very least.

In my opinion at least, I don't believe there is nothing more selfless in the world than sacrificing your life for someone else.

I'd say at least the water did get reset or was replaced with brand new water otherwise how did it go from undrinkable(mixed with Angel core blood) to drinkable.

46h pretty much confirmed that the red L - field contamination around the Earth is caused by and spreads around the Failures of Infinity, which turn white and dissolve in the end, therefore taking the Earth contamination along with them. This doesn't cover the water contamination though, whose disappearance I can only explain as being the result of the "Gates of Hell" in Antarctica, which were always in direct contact with the surrounding oceans, finally closing in the end.

I'm personally more of the idea that the ending is not at all what it seems. That Shinji and Mari are actually back in the normal world, Yui didn't just push Shinji out of the Golgotha object but minus space as well and he came out of a sea that's close to the village instead, Mari then escapes as well using her unit and that's why she says she made it just in time as in she escaped minus space just in time instead.

This is imo the second most likely interpretation of the ending (which I lowkey wish was the most plausible one because of how much more straightforward it is). However a big problem I have with it is that without the element of being transported to a parallel reality, the last scene can only make sense if it happens after a significant timeskip, during which humanity has been able to rebuilt to a good extent and Shinji has been able to get educated to a degree that he can get an office job at a company which should function normally in this post - apocalyptic setting. However Shinji and Mari don't look that old here...

[Konja7]

Not going to lie, while not really fitting with the rest of the ending it would had been pretty interesting if the film delved into this perspective more akin to the original. However it must be noted that even though Shinji can wish for anything he seems to only have one wish and everything else that happens seems to be a consequence of said single wish. The Angels are all already dead, so there's that, and I don't see how turning the Evas into Lilin or giving them their own living space could possible be a consequence of Shinji's wish.

In itself, Shinji has a lot of power at that point. He could repair the World I think this is a totally intentional part of his wish to dissapear the Evas.

However, the Evas don't seem to have their own souls. So, I don't he could turn them into Lilins.

[Archer]

Apologies if I'm missing something but I can't see what point you're getting at... You believe that the text here seems to imply that Shinji made an escapist wish in the end (and therefore that story's message here is escapist), correct? If so, I just can't see how that's the case, and none of the counterpoints I brought up in my first reply especially have to do with extra-narrative context. It's all textual context which mainly has to do with Shinji's character intentions.

Yes, taken at face value, the final scene really makes it look like Shinji created a new world to go live with his waifu. Or, rather, on a very surface level you might assume that it IS a legitimate time skip and they’ve simply returned to the Eva world (not escapist), but this interpretation immediately falls apart when you try to make sense of the logistics, forcing the adoption of an alternative hypothesis, which is that he created a new world inside the minus space (escapist). That or he’s just fucking dead and it’s all just a dying hallucination, which I also don’t think was intended because it has some seriously problematic implications w.r.t. redemption through death.

Based on the extranarrative context I know that this almost certainly isn’t what Anno intended to imply, and with that context we can make rationalizations such as “the epilogue is 100% metatextual and does not happen within the narrative at all”, but I don’t think there’s anything in the text to suggest that it exists outside the narrative.

This is imo the second most likely interpretation of the ending (which I lowkey wish was the most plausible one because of how much more straightforward it is). However a big problem I have with it is that without the element of being transported to a parallel reality, the last scene can only make sense if it happens after a significant timeskip, during which humanity has been able to rebuilt to a good extent and Shinji has been able to get educated to a degree that he can get an office job at a company which should function normally in this post - apocalyptic setting. However Shinji and Mari don't look that old here...

This is kinda what I meant when I said there was a lack of ambiguity in the ending… I’d be completely satisfied if the ending was ambiguous enough for me to be able to rationalize it as a plain ol’ timeskip, but there’s so much evidence in the scene that directly contradicts this interpretation that you have to make some serious handwaves to make it happen.