Is it reasonable to believe that people would blame Shinji for 3I?

[Konja7]

That was well before the 10th Angel was actually killed though. Unit 01 wasn't floating in the air with a naked Rei core yet.

In fact, Ritsuko said it shortly before Shinji destroyed the 10th Angel (Eva-01 only needed to launch another attack to destroy it) .

Ritsuko noticed that the situation was becoming pretty dangerous, that's why she wanted Shinji to stop his "fusion" with Eva-01.

Shinji answer is that he only cares about saving Ayanami.

[Axx°N N.]

Regarding mysterious behavior, I do not agree that any of the Rebuild angels have done anything that ought to map into this situation as a warning. The closest is the 9th Angel, which appeared inside Unit 03 and silenced Asuka. But the 10th Angel is plainly outside of Unit 01 and hasn't silenced Shinji, and therefore I don't see why the characters would apply any lessons from the 9th Angel attack during this attack.

It's certainly a harder argument to make without reaching back to NGE and using it as a basis; Angels infiltrating physically and psychologically is way more prevalent there. NTE for instance, and quite significantly, omits the scene from Episode 1 of Unit 01 moving on its own to protect Shinji from rafters in the version of that scene in 1.0, so the autonomy of Eva Units is also reduced, if not eliminated completely. I take it by Misato's "Berserk?" that it's a likelihood they're aware of, but I can't remember a time an Eva is in complete control on its own; in NTE it seems to more imply something similar to someone pushing past rational limits (as Shinji is doing) or into some kind of Beast Mode and seems to require a pilot inside, and a pilot's will.

But still, everything they see before things get trippy is just standard combat. It's what Shinji should be doing. When things get surreal, though, what of their view of things leads them to reasonable certainty about anything? Why is the weirdo transformation and merging not read as some new kind of angel attack or infiltration, when the last attack was a discrete infiltration? The angels adapting to psychologically take over Asuka in NGE, for instance, was something unexpected and deduced in the moment, but the situation between Unit 01 and the angel is immediately surmised as Shinji deciding something. But again, they aren't seeing spirit Shinji fish out spirit Rei. So upon the transformation, why would they not expect his mind to be altered by what's happening, intruded upon, etc.? Just because it takes Rei's form? Why wouldn't they consider if that's not some kind of manipulation or appropriation of Rei's image for the sake of baiting Shinji? I guess my trouble with it comes down to the idea that any of this trippy stuff can be followed logically on the ground, or more that a single conclusion is reached so quickly with little deliberation or suggested alternatives.

What's more, even disregarding the presence of an angel, why would the potentially psychologically damaging interface past some kind of reality threshold itself be enough to blame Shinji as if he was fully in sound mind? If these are horrors and evolution beyond our comprehension, why is a rigid moral binary overlaid on Shinji for what happens to him when he's literally breaking down (without full informed context, as he's not privy to any of this) outside of human constraints? Why isn't anyone considering a compromise of his identity? Characters treat everything related to the Evas as deeply inscrutable and ineffable in certain cases, but then use anything as a basis for determining how much choice Shinji had in affairs, when it should be a quite inscrutable philosophical question.

Ritsuko's exposition comes a moment later after the levitation starts and the wings of light appear. Her exposition is based on these new indicia, which she immediately recognizes (as does Misato) from reports of the Second Impact. Only at this point is it clear that Shinji's pursuit of Rei, after removing the threat of the 10th Angel, threatens the end of the world.

I suppose for me the biggest problem isn't anything above, it's actually that it's hard for me to figure out what the source is for anything Ritsuko says. Is it merely an Impact report? Is it not some other kind of privileged knowledge on her part? How much is info only she was previously privy to before having said it? How much is she surmising in the moment? Moreover, how much is she absolutely certain about and how much is tentative or lacking in deductive strength or (pardon the facetiousness) peer review? In a way, any blame leveled on Shinji is a result of everyone else understanding the situation as Ritsuko understands it, so it's pretty important what basis she has for the cause and effect.

[kuribo-04]

I don't really think it's really possible for Shinji to back out at that point. Especially considering nobody except the actual guilty parties are aware of what's really going on at that moment and what would follow afterwards.

With Shinji saying he doesn't care what happens to the world, I think he is at keast aware of the whole ordeal being dangerous. It's the "I don't care what happens" mindset he gets punished for.
Also several warnings from Ritsuko. Don't know if he can actually hear those lol. But that might be the idea.

[Konja7]

With Shinji saying he doesn't care what happens to the world, I think he is at keast aware of the whole ordeal being dangerous. It's the "I don't care what happens" mindset he gets punished for.
Also several warnings from Ritsuko. Don't know if he can actually hear those lol. But that might be the idea.

Yeah. That is what is implied.

Shinji doesn't know what exactly is going to happen (he would likely act more rational if he knew), but he knows that the situation is dangerous.

As you said, Shinji get punished for his "I don't care what happens" mindset.

[TheFriskyIan]

With Shinji saying he doesn't care what happens to the world, I think he is at keast aware of the whole ordeal being dangerous. It's the "I don't care what happens" mindset he gets punished for.
Also several warnings from Ritsuko. Don't know if he can actually hear those lol. But that might be the idea.

That's a very heavy punishment for just a frame of mindset. "But the world was actually destroyed" doesn't back it up either since there were other actors who orchestrated that outcome and Shinji was just a tool to that end.

[Konja7]

That's a very heavy punishment for just a frame of mindset. "But the world was actually destroyed" doesn't back it up either since there were other actors who orchestrated that outcome and Shinji was just a tool to that end.

We don't know how N3I Impact was the trigger for the the Third Impact, but it's true that Shinji was just a tool for Gendo.

However, the story doesn't want to use Gendo's manipulations to free Shinji from responsibility for his actions. In the same way the story hardly takes Shinji's age into consideration.

The story definitely wants Shinji to be held responsible. I've understand part of the audience may have problems with this direction, but this is essential for the story in Rebuild.

[Archer]

That just begs the question though, narratively speaking, what was even the point of splitting up N3I and Third Impact?

Literally, if the events at the end of 2.0 are directly responsible for the state of the world in 3.0, then it would be MUCH easier to place the blame on Shinji, because then at least the situation would have been the direct result of his actions.

If the movie fundamentally requires you to believe that Shinji is responsible, WHY add in an extra layer of separation that clearly mitigates his responsibility in the eyes of any reasonable observer? It’s also an extra layer most people will not even notice, because if you just watch the movies without looking at any of the supplemental material the clear assumption you make is that whatever Shinji did at the end of 2.0 is indeed directly responsible for the state of the world in 3.0. This is very much a case of “it makes less sense the more you look into it”.

—

Actually, IS there even any direct evidence in the movies themselves that Third Impact didn’t happen, like, immediately (within days) after the end of 2.0? Like yeah we know from supplementary sources (I forget what specifically) the rough timeline of events that would’ve been covered in the original 3.0 concept, but is there any confirmation that this is actually still what happens in the story? Because really, the movies make a LOT more sense if you assume that the WILLE rebellion happened in the immediate aftermath of 2.0, with Gendo and Fuyutsuki nominally getting ousted from power, but pretty much immediately kicking off Third Impact in retaliation.

- Gendo and Fuyutsuki wandering around the desert in the 3.0 preview doesn’t count, because the 3.0 preview is obviously based on an old version of the story and shouldn’t automatically assumed to still be canon

- The construction of the Wunder (and its sister ships) don’t necessitate several-months time gap because they logically must have been secretly under construction for years, if not decades, at that point. There’s literally no way they could’ve been designed and built within the supposed several-months timespan between N3I and Third Impact.

- Kaworu apparently holding the title of Commander of NERV at some undefined point could still work with an accelerated timeline, it just means that he held the title for days, not months.

Unless there’s anything in the movies that specifically contradicts this, this is how I’m going to choose to believe events played out, because the alternative is just too stupid and nonsensical to accept.

[Konja7]

If the movie fundamentally requires you to believe that Shinji is responsible, WHY add in an extra layer of separation that clearly mitigates his responsibility in the eyes of any reasonable observer? It’s also an extra layer most people will not even notice, because if you just watch the movies without looking at any of the supplemental material the clear assumption you make is that whatever Shinji did at the end of 2.0 is indeed directly responsible for the state of the world in 3.0. This is very much a case of “it makes less sense the more you look into it”.

It seems Anno has plans for a movie without Shinji. Although he decided to cancel those plans, he mantained the events as a background (without reaveling the details to the audience). That's why that part is so confusing.

That said, I assume the idea that Shinji was considered responsible always existed. It just will be more clear why humanity blames N3I (and Shinji) for the Third Impact.

The idea that Shinji is blamed by humanity seems to exist even in early drafts of Q, where Kaji was alive (and he was who shows the destroyed World to Shinji).

Actually, IS there even any direct evidence in the movies themselves that Third Impact didn’t happen, like, immediately (within days) after the end of 2.0? Like yeah we know from supplementary sources (I forget what specifically) the rough timeline of events that would’ve been covered in the original 3.0 concept, but is there any confirmation that this is actually still what happens in the story? Because really, the movies make a LOT more sense if you assume that the WILLE rebellion happened in the immediate aftermath of 2.0, with Gendo and Fuyutsuki nominally getting ousted from power, but pretty much immediately kicking off Third Impact in retaliation.

I know what timeline you're speaking, but I don't think it's confirmed Anno said that timeline.

The timeline was created by twitter user. This twitter user was in a stage where Anno reveals some things (like his original plan for a movie without Shinji), but I suspect part of that timeline are only conclusions from the twitter user.

I don't think Anno really told so many details. After all, other twitter users in that event don't give so many details.

[Archer]

lol. I think the change of plans really does make things very confusing. Especially because there ARE details given out, it’s hard to tell what simply “hasn’t been shown” but is still implied to have happened (such as Commander Kaworu) vs. stuff that has been explicitly changed (such as Unit 8 being the “original” Mk 13 and having a different design).

[SEELE-01]

I think a lot of nuance is lost if the socio-cultural differences between Japanese and Western societies.

Shinji is not blamed for saving them, but for triggering N3I in an attempt to save Rei, the latter not because it was necessary, but because HE wanted it for himself.
Being in an utilitarian/conformist society, wanting something above and beyond what you "deserve" is seen as being awfully selfish.
Pink-hair girl and Sakura's reactions are understandable only in that framework, where they have to play a very narrow role in their perfectly functioning microcosm of survivors to A) be of use* and B) not do as Shinji did.
Shinji's actions are textbook example of what they ought not do, and now their commander is letting him do what caused all of this? This probably puts them in a strong cognitive dissonance...
Nevertheless, the presentation, execution and resolution of that whole affair is laughable at best, cringeworthy at worst.


*in Spanish we have to ways of saying this: ser de ayuda="be of use" in a helping way, supportive for the social group. We also have ser de utilidad=be of use, but with a connotation of being useful as a machine or in an unpaid intern way. You are of use as a part of something, not as yourself.
I mean Sakura and Pink-haired girl being of use in the second variation.

[nerv bae]

Actually, IS there even any direct evidence in the movies themselves that Third Impact didn’t happen, like, immediately (within days) after the end of 2.0?

Yes:

assuming that Misato only had a bone fissure in her injured arm, the fastest it can heal is 20 days(in the anime after 30 days she no longer her injure) and pregnancy symptoms can appear in the first month (unless Misato has taken a pregnancy test) and Kensuke mentions that Kaji jr is going to have his birthday soon so between 1 to 3 months from N3I until the actual third impact (to that we must add that wille was recruiting military personnel from the army and from nerv apparently)

In other words, Misato's arm heals and she becomes aware of her pregnancy between these two scenes:

Near Third Impact (Kaji interrupted her lunch at most a few weeks ago; no way she knows she's pregnant yet):


Third Impact (Misato knows she's pregnant here but there's no way she's hiding a sling under that turtleneck):


As further direct evidence, you have to account for the 11th Angel attack in between the 10th and 12th. It would be inconsistent with prior patterns to see the 10th on day 1, the 11th on day 2, and then the 12th on day 3 per your preferred "immediate" timeline.

[dzzthink]

Oh what, you're right! Very interesting.. It's clear these are separate scenes, suggesting that the impact went on for longer.

[nerv bae]

I take it by Misato's "Berserk?" that it's a likelihood they're aware of, but I can't remember a time an Eva is in complete control on its own; in NTE it seems to more imply something similar to someone pushing past rational limits (as Shinji is doing) or into some kind of Beast Mode and seems to require a pilot inside, and a pilot's will.

In 1.11, Unit 01 goes berserk to defeat the 4th Angel.

Like, if N3I and 3I happened much closer together - maybe a week apart - one could reasonably expect that in the ensuing chaos, the events would kinda get conflated, and Shinji might still catch flak for 3I even though he technically wasn’t around for the main event. But with the event taking place months apart, Shinji being effectively dead for that time period (and remaining “dead” for the next 14 years), and with there being a clear non-Shinji direct instigator, it just doesn’t make sense to me that normal survivors would necessarily make the connection in their head to blame Shinji for what happened. Like, you don’t need a scapegoat when you can literally point to the guy who everyone knows was directly responsible for triggering the end of the world.

Off-the-cuff thoughts on blame in general:

1) Can some measure of everyone's anger at Shinji be attributed to their use of him as a proxy for Gendo? In the sense of "we can't lay hands on the father who's locked away in his tower, but we can lay hands on the next best thing, his son, who was there at N3I and doing the father's bidding"? Visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children is a thing in the western religious tradition, after all.

2) In the western legal tradition there are sliding scales of intent and damage that move in opposite directions. That is, the greater the damage caused by one's crime, the less he needed to mean for it to happen while still being found blameworthy. At one end of this scale there are doctrines of strict liability. In this sense, it's perfectly reasonable to blame someone for ending the world, even if he didn't mean to do so. I don't know if there is a similar legal tradition on the Japanese side.

[Axx°N N.]

It all starts to seem like Shinji's crime is merely that he said "I don't care what happens to the world!"

Had he not said this, would this be an entirely different conversation? What's more, why would he say that in the situation? Is that itself believable or justified by the screenplay? Looking at it in isolation, it's kind of an absurd, random statement.

In the western legal tradition there are sliding scales of intent and damage that move in opposite directions. That is, the greater the damage caused by one's crime, the less he needed to mean for it to happen while still being found blameworthy. At one end of this scale there are doctrines of strict liability. In this sense, it's perfectly reasonable to blame someone for ending the world, even if he didn't mean to do so. I don't know if there is a similar legal tradition on the Japanese side.

Wouldn't this context fit only if Shinji's actions were in more of a vacuum? Like, a teenager accidentally falling on a big button that says "End the World" as compared to, you know, a teenager's father blindfolding him, pushing him into the direction of the button, placing a banana peel in his shambling path, and spearheading the manufacturing of said button.

If we're applying legal frameworks to this, we also need to consider the legal tangle of how at fault someone is if they're manipulated or forced into doing something. And if we're going to truly apply the Japanese cultural lens, we need to consider their legal environment as regards teenagers; Shinji is barely into the age of criminal responsibility in Japan, disregarding, again, the orchestrations of his father.

I think a lot of nuance is lost if the socio-cultural differences between Japanese and Western societies.

Never a fan of this read when it comes up. First of all, one half of Shinji's character arc guilt is in relation to Asuka, a German. There's also that Nerv is essentially above certain laws, and so I assume certain cultural norms, and the fact that, by definition, any espionage on Kaji's part and mutiny on Misato's side is technically illegal itself, because the villains are at the top of the legal system ... if not said cultural norms, come to think of it, Seele being ancient string-pullers.

[Konja7]

It all starts to seem like Shinji's crime is merely that he said "I don't care what happens to the world!"

Had he not said this, would this be an entirely different conversation? What's more, why would he say that in the situation? Is that itself believable or justified by the screenplay? Looking at it in isolation, it's kind of an absurd, random statement.

I assume Shinji could heard Ritsuko at that moment and "I don't care what happens to the world!" is his answer to Ritsuko's pleas to stop.

After all, Ritsuko tells him to stop, which wouldn't make sense if Shinji couldn't heard her.

[Axx°N N.]

Right, but world destruction isn't referred to or implied, really. The only time I can think of where that's set up as a firm possibility is Misato explaining Lilith in 1.0, and I guess the fact that certain events have already destroyed large portions of the world.

It almost makes me want to do a full rewatch right now just to see if I can track if Shinji ending up at the statement "I don't care what happens to the world" makes much sense character-wise; should he think world destruction is on the table in this situation given his understanding of things?

[Konja7]

Never a fan of this read when it comes up. First of all, one half of Shinji's character arc guilt is in relation to Asuka, a German. There's also that Nerv is essentially above certain laws, and so I assume certain cultural norms, and the fact that, by definition, any espionage on Kaji's part and mutiny on Misato's side is technically illegal itself, because the villains are at the top of the legal system ... if not said cultural norms, come to think of it, Seele being ancient string-pullers.

Fictional characters nacionality isn't really important. Evangelion is a Japanese anime, so it makes sense that Japanese cultural aspects are reflected in the story.

That said, you mentioned the Japanese legal system about minors. Japanese legal system is pretty lenient to crimes commited by minors. However, I should mention that many Japanese people have problems with that situation.

I always find interesting that the story or characters don't consider Shinji's age as a defense for his actions.

Right, but world destruction isn't referred to or implied, really. The only time I can think of where that's set up as a firm possibility is Misato explaining Lilith in 1.0, and I guess the fact that certain events have already destroyed large portions of the world.

It almost makes me want to do a full rewatch right now just to see if I can track if Shinji ending up at the statement "I don't care what happens to the world" makes much sense character-wise; should he think world destruction is on the table in this situation given his understanding of things?

No. Shinji didn't know that the world was going to be destroyed.

If Shinji knows the destruction of the World will happen, I think he would have stopped or tried to handle things more calmly.

The point is that Shinji acted without thinking or considering the consequences, because he only cares about saving Rei.

[AlphaZero]

Has anyone considered what would happen if Shinji calmed down after defeating the 10th angel accepting Rei's death? How would anyone stop an awaked unit 1? Would Seele cause an impact anyway? Now it almost seems like Kaworu waited for Shinji to extract Rei instead of prioritizing stopping the impact. So confusing.

Edit: Or maybe Kaworu was following orders + space physics, I don't know.

[Konja7]

Has anyone considered what would happen if Shinji calmed down after defeating the 10th angel accepting Rei's death? How would anyone stop an awaked unit 1? Would Seele cause an impact anyway? Now it almost seems like Kaworu waited for Shinji to extract Rei instead of prioritizing stopping the impact. So confusing.

Edit: Or maybe Kaworu was following orders + space physics, I don't know.

I will try to answer all the questions:

- It's implied that Awakening of Eva-01 would stop if Shinji calmed down. When he destroyed the 10th Angel, Eva-01 situation was still reversible, so everything could stop if Shinji calmed down.

- Kaworu wasn't waiting that Shinji extracted Rei. Kaworu was sent to Earth from the Moon, so he couldn't have a chance to impal Eva-01 before that moment. We could see that the Spear of Cassius was thrown to impal Eva-01 from a great height, then Kaworu must have thrown it as soon as possible.

- The Third Impact in 2.0 was totally orquested by Gendo (to Awaken Eva-01), while SEELE doesn't want it at all. In 2.0, SEELE sent Kaworu and Mark-06 to stop the 10th Angel, but they would also want to stop the Third Impact started by Awakened Eva-01. SEELE wouldn't want a Third Impact they don't control (Kaji even mentions that SEELE will retaliate against Gendo for this).

- SEELE has plans to start the Third Impact, but SEELE seems to want to use Kaworu and Mark-06 for this. In itself, this is a big fail in their plan, since Kaworu seems to be on humanity's side.


PS: I suspect Kaworu being unreliable for SEELE is the reason why SEELE needs to ammend things with Gendo and return him the NERV's Commander position. Not to mention that the reason why Mark-06 is modified to become autonomous.

[nerv bae]

It all starts to seem like Shinji's crime is merely that he said "I don't care what happens to the world!"

Had he not said this, would this be an entirely different conversation? What's more, why would he say that in the situation? Is that itself believable or justified by the screenplay? Looking at it in isolation, it's kind of an absurd, random statement.

Right, but world destruction isn't referred to or implied, really. The only time I can think of where that's set up as a firm possibility is Misato explaining Lilith in 1.0, and I guess the fact that certain events have already destroyed large portions of the world.

It almost makes me want to do a full rewatch right now just to see if I can track if Shinji ending up at the statement "I don't care what happens to the world" makes much sense character-wise; should he think world destruction is on the table in this situation given his understanding of things?

He said "I don't care what happens to the world!" because he understands the stakes of failing to defeat the 10th Angel: he understands (from the 1.0 Lilith conversation you reference) that as an Eva pilot he must protect Lilith from Angels, that Lilith might act as the trigger for an Impact, and that Lilith's Impact can cause the extinction of the human race. This understanding from 1.0 is underscored by Shinji's experience seconds prior of intervening against the 10th Angel in Terminal Dogma, where it was on its way down to Lilith. He sent the 10th Angel away from Lilith as fast as possible, by working with Misato to use the lift. But, in this line of dialogue, he rejects these stakes as his motivation. We learn that he doesn't care about the world, or his own health. He just wants to save Rei.

Based on this, I think the line is believable and justified by the screenplay, and neither absurd nor random. I have a feeling that if you went through with your proposed full rewatch, you would discover that the scripts hold together in reality a bit better than they do in your memory!

No. Shinji didn't know that the world was going to be destroyed.

If Shinji knows the destruction of the World will happen, I think he would have stopped or tried to handle things more calmly.

The point is that Shinji acted without thinking or considering the consequences, because he only cares about saving Rei.

Note that I think this line of dialogue is explicitly about Shinji's understanding of what will happen if the 10th Angel reaches Lilith, not what will happen if Shinji uses the full power of Unit 01 to save Rei. Per above, Shinji knows that the former will cause the destruction of the world, but he doesn't know that the latter will do the same.

In the western legal tradition there are sliding scales of intent and damage that move in opposite directions. That is, the greater the damage caused by one's crime, the less he needed to mean for it to happen while still being found blameworthy. At one end of this scale there are doctrines of strict liability. In this sense, it's perfectly reasonable to blame someone for ending the world, even if he didn't mean to do so. I don't know if there is a similar legal tradition on the Japanese side.

Wouldn't this context fit only if Shinji's actions were in more of a vacuum? Like, a teenager accidentally falling on a big button that says "End the World" as compared to, you know, a teenager's father blindfolding him, pushing him into the direction of the button, placing a banana peel in his shambling path, and spearheading the manufacturing of said button.

If we're applying legal frameworks to this, we also need to consider the legal tangle of how at fault someone is if they're manipulated or forced into doing something. And if we're going to truly apply the Japanese cultural lens, we need to consider their legal environment as regards teenagers; Shinji is barely into the age of criminal responsibility in Japan, disregarding, again, the orchestrations of his father.

Sure, we can put together some different hypotheticals about banana peels, blindfolds, manipulation, and the like in order to examine exactly when faultless actors shouldn't nevertheless be blamed for the extraordinary damage they cause. That's a fair exercise. But, I don't think playing with those hypotheticals should distract from the more significant point I'm trying to make, which is that in the west faultless people are still blameworthy if they cause enough mayhem. I haven't seen this point made at all in the conversations about N3I and 3I, (I know, I know, I'm very new here so I may have missed an old conversation about this) so I think it's important to get it out there.