Hey everyone. I want to share my thoughts on the fight between these two evas. I felt really dissapointed on how things turned out because we got this near-God evas with such amazing powers fighting as just two normal evas in the minus space. I expected to see a lot of powers used like eyebeams and laser shots; hell, even the two spears looked like normal eva weapons in this fight. They were teasing us with these two mighty evas since 3.0, but in reality they turned out to be pretty plain evas with no God-like powers at all.
I don't know if it was a budget restriction problem, like the real minus space that we were supposed to see according to the pictures they once put in a gallery while presenting some of the new concepts in Shin Eva. It was a dark place where there were some rocks and a river flowing and dividing itself into four paths ending in different colored cross-shaped lights. Even the Golgotha Object felt misused in the movie. Like, what was even its purpose at all? It has glyphs and all but they don't even explain why was it so important that it had to be left inside the minus space.
Then came the concept of Eva Imaginary. I mean, what the hell? If Anno wanted to use a Lilith in this movie, he shouldn't have killed the Original Lilith in 3.0, he just needed to put her in a hibernation state or something. There was no need to kill her and the invent some sort of Eva that's not supposed to exist in our reality. For me it felt super far-fetched to use this concept and a last-time-minute resource to achieve a parallelism between the events of EoE and Shin Eva.
What are your thoughts on these subjects guys?
Eva 01 vs 13, the minus space, Golgotha Object and Eva Imaginry
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- AsukaShikinami10
- Adam
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Re: Eva 01 vs 13, the minus space, Golgotha Object and Eva Imaginry
I turned my brain off whenever bullshit technobabble popped up and immediately assumed it didn’t matter (it didn’t). I find it increased my enjoyment of the movie a lot more, over trying to make sense of the overloaded lore that has little bearing on the message of the movie.
- AdamMalkovitch
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Re: Eva 01 vs 13, the minus space, Golgotha Object and Eva Imaginry
Anno projects change during development, that's just how he is. Nadia turned from adventure into horror at points and had those godawful outsourced filler episodes, NGE... well, you know how NGE went, Kare Kano only had like 2/3rds of the episodes actually directed by Anno- the only projects of his I can think of that didn't change during production were Gunbuster and his live-action movies. But those projects are so short that there wasn't enough time for Anno to fall into depression, or become interested in psychology, or be too experimental to the point he's alienating the audience.
I highly doubt the movie had any budgetary issues. This is mf Evangelion bro, MODERN Evangelion. They have so much goddamn cash coming in from merch. Besides, it's length should be testament alone to that. 2 and a half hours is expensive for live-action or 3D animation, doing it with 2D is almost unheard of. While I do think it would have been sick as hell to see some of that concept art shown in the gallery come to fruition, like that waterfall cave valley one of the EVAs was standing in, I'm more than satisfied that the Golgotha Object actually got an explanation and a purpose, considering how long this movie was in production hell being directed by someone notorious for drastically changing his plans during development.
The GO needs to be sealed away because it can turn thoughts into power. It's like the Phantom Ruby on super crack. If it were easy to access, if you didn't have to make any sacrifices, anyone could get it and fuck with shit. The rest of this post is based on how I understand things, just a disclaimer. EVA Imaginary is an entirely different being from Lilith. Lilith was a real being that existed and would act as an Impact Trigger, while EVA Imaginary is something that doesn't actually exist. Because the Golgotha Object creates a centralized pocket where the thoughts of the one interacting with it turn into power, Dr.Akagi theorized that it would be possible to use that power to think of a being capable of rewriting ALL of reality, and then use that being to become god. Meanwhile Lilith was just a big fat naked dude dropped off on Earth for daycare by the guys who hid the REAL treasure inside the Gates of Guf. Again, the EVA Imaginary bit is all just what I've picked up from my first two viewings. Gonna watch it again tonight and I might update if I learn something new.
I highly doubt the movie had any budgetary issues. This is mf Evangelion bro, MODERN Evangelion. They have so much goddamn cash coming in from merch. Besides, it's length should be testament alone to that. 2 and a half hours is expensive for live-action or 3D animation, doing it with 2D is almost unheard of. While I do think it would have been sick as hell to see some of that concept art shown in the gallery come to fruition, like that waterfall cave valley one of the EVAs was standing in, I'm more than satisfied that the Golgotha Object actually got an explanation and a purpose, considering how long this movie was in production hell being directed by someone notorious for drastically changing his plans during development.
The GO needs to be sealed away because it can turn thoughts into power. It's like the Phantom Ruby on super crack. If it were easy to access, if you didn't have to make any sacrifices, anyone could get it and fuck with shit. The rest of this post is based on how I understand things, just a disclaimer. EVA Imaginary is an entirely different being from Lilith. Lilith was a real being that existed and would act as an Impact Trigger, while EVA Imaginary is something that doesn't actually exist. Because the Golgotha Object creates a centralized pocket where the thoughts of the one interacting with it turn into power, Dr.Akagi theorized that it would be possible to use that power to think of a being capable of rewriting ALL of reality, and then use that being to become god. Meanwhile Lilith was just a big fat naked dude dropped off on Earth for daycare by the guys who hid the REAL treasure inside the Gates of Guf. Again, the EVA Imaginary bit is all just what I've picked up from my first two viewings. Gonna watch it again tonight and I might update if I learn something new.
*injects Angel blood* I know what the fuck an EVA is now :)
- deepseawaterport
- Embryo
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Re: Eva 01 vs 13, the minus space, Golgotha Object and Eva Imaginry
For me, the fight felt a lot like "talk no jutsu", which was very disappointing.
To be honest I didn't even under why Shinji had a motivation to stop his father.
To be honest I didn't even under why Shinji had a motivation to stop his father.
- AsukaShikinami10
- Adam
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Re: Eva 01 vs 13, the minus space, Golgotha Object and Eva Imaginry
deepseawaterport wrote:For me, the fight felt a lot like "talk no jutsu", which was very disappointing.
Yeah, I felt it was very disappointing too. Gendoh had a plan cooked for more than over 20+ years, and then Shinji wants to talk to him and suddenly he decides to back off. Man, it was a planned scenario for years and it only took 10 minutes of talk with Shinji for Gendoh to decide he should stop his plans. I don't think a repressed person would bare his mind and soul so easily like Gendoh did with Shinji. Believe me, I have family and friends with repressed angst and depression and they don't open their heart so easily even if you try to support them and give them a hand. So for me the pep-talk with Shinji was so unrealistic an illogical to begin with.
- Gendo's Glasses
- Adam
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Re: Eva 01 vs 13, the minus space, Golgotha Object and Eva Imaginry
A few things...
The dialogue is said to be a key part of actually getting the Impact to happen. As Gendo says, violence and strength have nothing to do with the Additional Impact process. It appears that he had to convince Shinji to go along with due to the symbolic nature of Unit 01 and Unit 13. The violence on Shinji's part is pointless. This resonates with Instrumentality in the original series and EoE, where breaking down someone's ego is a necessary component.
Gendo only really opens up to Shinji after he thinks he's won and then fails to find any trace of Yui -- just Rei, over and over again -- and he grows increasingly distraught. It's that moment that allows Shinji and him to talk to each other. Gendo gives up on his plan because it appears that his plan is all for naught. Even in the space where fiction and reality are one and the same, even after everything he's done, there's no Yui! And, as Gendo says very soon after, he thinks it's his weakness that prevents him from finding her.
I'm not sure I'd call Gendo repressed as much as I'd call him schizoid, and in that case -- thanks to the wonders of Making Anime Real -- Shinji is able to pierce through the covert/overt schema and get right at Gendo's psyche. The AT field is another wonderful metaphor for that divide in a schizoid individual. On the outside, there's cold, secretive, ruthless Gendo behind a barrier that cannot be penetrated. Internally, hidden and protected at all costs, is soft, sensitive, heart-broken Gendo.
Shinji's motivation to stop Gendo was because, as far as everyone knew, the Additional Impact would wipe out all life on the planet.
The dialogue is said to be a key part of actually getting the Impact to happen. As Gendo says, violence and strength have nothing to do with the Additional Impact process. It appears that he had to convince Shinji to go along with due to the symbolic nature of Unit 01 and Unit 13. The violence on Shinji's part is pointless. This resonates with Instrumentality in the original series and EoE, where breaking down someone's ego is a necessary component.
Gendo only really opens up to Shinji after he thinks he's won and then fails to find any trace of Yui -- just Rei, over and over again -- and he grows increasingly distraught. It's that moment that allows Shinji and him to talk to each other. Gendo gives up on his plan because it appears that his plan is all for naught. Even in the space where fiction and reality are one and the same, even after everything he's done, there's no Yui! And, as Gendo says very soon after, he thinks it's his weakness that prevents him from finding her.
I'm not sure I'd call Gendo repressed as much as I'd call him schizoid, and in that case -- thanks to the wonders of Making Anime Real -- Shinji is able to pierce through the covert/overt schema and get right at Gendo's psyche. The AT field is another wonderful metaphor for that divide in a schizoid individual. On the outside, there's cold, secretive, ruthless Gendo behind a barrier that cannot be penetrated. Internally, hidden and protected at all costs, is soft, sensitive, heart-broken Gendo.
Shinji's motivation to stop Gendo was because, as far as everyone knew, the Additional Impact would wipe out all life on the planet.
Re: Eva 01 vs 13, the minus space, Golgotha Object and Eva Imaginry
Eva 01 vs 13 is the alpha and omega colliding, and the alpha and omega are equals on the opposite ends of the scale, hence hope and despair.
the eye beams stop mattering once we're talking about battle at that level...at least in canon because the spear's are actual god killers for evangelion's who have become literal god's seeing as both have previously opened the doors of guf and started an impact and could only be stopped with spears, perhaps they are still false gods too, regardless the eye beams and brutality are not god killers, gendo made that clear.
but 01 and 13 being equals means that violence can't resolve the battle, the violence would only escalate, maybe there'll be some elite directors cut released later where that happens and reality itself breaks at the encounter as the combat turns into storyboard, but that's wishful thinking considering we actually got a movie in the middle of these years.
eva imaginary is creation itself, combining fantasy and reality, the engine of creation. maybe one true god but could jsut be hopium.
chaos and order, the keys of creation, represented by hope and despair, 01 vs 13, and Gendo and Yui.
i'm not sure if eva imaginary exists above or below the FAR or if it is replacing the role of the FAR in the rebuild, or even if this is literally Shinji running a take 3 of getting instrumentality right and he's tricked his father with some eva imaginary and he finally decided that eva's can't exist and no one can be an eva pilot, or if Anno himself is running his third take of instrumentality and fourth impact has literally been stopped from happening because there will be no more evangelion.
but that aside, eva imaginary is the engine for instrumentality, permission to author reality as one wishes having presented it with the keys of two perfect opposites.
it is also every evangelion that could ever exist(?my headcanon too strong?), all of them having the same potential to warp reality the same way imaginary does...even writing itself out of reality as Shinji chose.
either way it is perceived, it doesn't actually exist, and because humans are born of lillith it presents itself as black lillith because lillith is "god" to the first humans that rise out of LCL. the assumption is that it would present itself as "black adam" to an angel, perhaps kaworu, hence why he said something was wrong with the last attempt at third impact in 3.0 but i doubt he knew exactly what it was, just that 13 was not to become the one true god despite having the potential for it, or perhaps knowing Shinji wasn't ready to rebuild reality in a thoughtful manner so he decided to give Shinji another shot at piloting an eva by going into deep thought before suiciding, a failure by Commander Nagisa, as Kaji has pointed out.
kaworu says something 4th wall breaking by saying him and Shinji will keep on meeting each other, i can only guess that's a jab from Anno saying we're going to keep on replaying all his content, even talks about playing this role of his for all of eternity surrounded by coffins of what i can only assume are the amount of replays we've given the verse and how many times Kaworu has been booted back up for us to dissect all these pointless plot details that are oh so considered.
the golgotha object i have no ideas for, i can only assume it's the spear used to stop eva imaginary, which for sure would mean that the FAR placed it there along with eva imaginary when they no longer saw a need to write reality. but then i wonder if the spear wields itself or if an entity must wield it to stop the additional impact and how they would even do so. only Anno knows.
could even be a reality stabilizer due to the existence of eva imaginary and being in the anti-verse.
"it might not look stable but you have no idea what it would look like without this here" type of vibe.
whatever everything is, this has been a fun ride, Anno smashed it.
the eye beams stop mattering once we're talking about battle at that level...at least in canon because the spear's are actual god killers for evangelion's who have become literal god's seeing as both have previously opened the doors of guf and started an impact and could only be stopped with spears, perhaps they are still false gods too, regardless the eye beams and brutality are not god killers, gendo made that clear.
but 01 and 13 being equals means that violence can't resolve the battle, the violence would only escalate, maybe there'll be some elite directors cut released later where that happens and reality itself breaks at the encounter as the combat turns into storyboard, but that's wishful thinking considering we actually got a movie in the middle of these years.
eva imaginary is creation itself, combining fantasy and reality, the engine of creation. maybe one true god but could jsut be hopium.
chaos and order, the keys of creation, represented by hope and despair, 01 vs 13, and Gendo and Yui.
i'm not sure if eva imaginary exists above or below the FAR or if it is replacing the role of the FAR in the rebuild, or even if this is literally Shinji running a take 3 of getting instrumentality right and he's tricked his father with some eva imaginary and he finally decided that eva's can't exist and no one can be an eva pilot, or if Anno himself is running his third take of instrumentality and fourth impact has literally been stopped from happening because there will be no more evangelion.
but that aside, eva imaginary is the engine for instrumentality, permission to author reality as one wishes having presented it with the keys of two perfect opposites.
it is also every evangelion that could ever exist(?my headcanon too strong?), all of them having the same potential to warp reality the same way imaginary does...even writing itself out of reality as Shinji chose.
either way it is perceived, it doesn't actually exist, and because humans are born of lillith it presents itself as black lillith because lillith is "god" to the first humans that rise out of LCL. the assumption is that it would present itself as "black adam" to an angel, perhaps kaworu, hence why he said something was wrong with the last attempt at third impact in 3.0 but i doubt he knew exactly what it was, just that 13 was not to become the one true god despite having the potential for it, or perhaps knowing Shinji wasn't ready to rebuild reality in a thoughtful manner so he decided to give Shinji another shot at piloting an eva by going into deep thought before suiciding, a failure by Commander Nagisa, as Kaji has pointed out.
kaworu says something 4th wall breaking by saying him and Shinji will keep on meeting each other, i can only guess that's a jab from Anno saying we're going to keep on replaying all his content, even talks about playing this role of his for all of eternity surrounded by coffins of what i can only assume are the amount of replays we've given the verse and how many times Kaworu has been booted back up for us to dissect all these pointless plot details that are oh so considered.
the golgotha object i have no ideas for, i can only assume it's the spear used to stop eva imaginary, which for sure would mean that the FAR placed it there along with eva imaginary when they no longer saw a need to write reality. but then i wonder if the spear wields itself or if an entity must wield it to stop the additional impact and how they would even do so. only Anno knows.
could even be a reality stabilizer due to the existence of eva imaginary and being in the anti-verse.
"it might not look stable but you have no idea what it would look like without this here" type of vibe.
whatever everything is, this has been a fun ride, Anno smashed it.
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