The Adams/ Eva 13/ The ships/ The vessels

[Cookie H Wilson]

Hello everyone
I open this topic cause I’d like your opinion about what the Adams are/is, how they connect with the ships, with unit 13 Mark 6 Mark from 9 to 12

[Raikyu]

I think that it's too early to speculate about those things, especially without watching the movie, but here it goes.

The 4 Adams seen in the flashback of the second impact must be the 4 Evangelions mark 09-12. Or at least the cores of the Adams and the ships are their bodies because we know that mark 9 is all made of core. But one thing for sure is that every one of these units is linked to every ship and to every one of the Adams.

There are some speculations that there is a fifth Adam, which could be the central one, while the other ones are its minions/bodyguards or something along those lines. This comes from the fact that there is a frame of the South Pole in Shin Eva with 4 identical crosses and with a fifth cross bigger than the others. If this theory is confirmed, that explains why there are 6 spears (5 to the Adams and 1 to Lilith). Kaworu could have the soul of this central Adam and the 4 minor Adams share the soul with the main one, being like a hivemind. Maybe that's why they are Adam's "vessels" because Adam is an omnipresent being that controls multiple vessels.

We know that Eva 13 is "one of the surviving Adams", so it could be the fifth central Adam. No clue why it needs two pilots. Maybe it requires the soul of Kaworu (the soul of Adam) to work properly and another pilot to effectively pilot it. Despite needing two pilots, Shinji blocked Kaworu's control and piloted Eva 13 alone, which confirms this hypothesis. Nebuchadnezzar's Key may have some sort of relationship with this unit, but we need more proof to confirm that. I suspect that the Key must be a component extracted from its body.

Now, regarding the remaining units, I have no idea which angelic being is the genetic basis of each individual Evangelion. I like to think that Unit-01 and mark 6 are the only ones based on Lilith. I choose Unit-01 only because of the original show and mark 6 due to its similarities to Unit-01 (they are the only ones with a horn) and due to its resemblances with Lilith while it was under construction. Besides that mark 6 was able to fuse with Lilith, replace her head, and took control of her body. However, the fact that Kaworu can pilot mark 6 may contradict this theory.

These are my thoughts about what we know now. Just like I said, it is possible that after watching the movie or a hypothetical 3.33+1.11 with extra scenes, all these ideas may be discarded. What are your thoughts about this? Do you have any theories to fill the gaps that I presented?

Edit 1: I forgot to say one thing. I don't think that Unit-01's transformation into a Radiant Giant was caused because it was an Adam, but due to the Tenth Angel's core, which gave the Fruit of Life to the unit, resulting in a god with both fruits. What I mean is that only those with the Fruit of Life can achieve that state. Unit-02 with angelified Asuka may be another example. Talking about Asuka, I suspect that she may be the Eleventh Angel, that was born at the moment the Ninth Angel infected her, but I'm not certain about this one.

Edit 2: Returning to Kaworu. Despite being Adam in a Lilin Body, he's still the First angel, just like the central Adam and its 4 vessels were. But Kaworu's godly status was stolen by Gendo, when he fused with the key, and in consequence became a new Angel.

[Cookie H Wilson]

Thank you for your reply
I wonder about these things since Q came out
Also the 11th angel is such a bummer not to know more
They have been so keen on presenting all evas and marks
I dunno

[DantesInferno]

I’m in the “the Adams and the Adams Vessels are seprate entities” camp.

In Q, Mark 09 is consistently refered to as “Adams Vessel”, and unit 13 as the “surviving Adams” instead.

The white outline in the shore in 1.0 strongly suggests that one of the Adams washed there after 2I, most likely it was turned into Unit-01. Similar for Mark-06 and its spear, being flown to the moon (and let to play among the stars!).

Another hint is that, despite Mark 09 being destroyed at the end of Q, somehow Nerv has reassembled all four Adams Vessels (Mark 09~12) for the climax of Final. This means that the Adams Vessels are man-made, core-based tech, and likely not “the Adams original cores” as previously hypothesized by e.g. Reichu.

The unanswered questions are: The fifth cross at 2I ground zero, and why Mari fairwells the Nerv Wunders by calling them “Adams” when they sink at the end.

[Giji Shinka]

We know that Eva 13 is "one of the surviving Adams", so it could be the fifth central Adam. No clue why it needs two pilots. Maybe it requires the soul of Kaworu (the soul of Adam) to work properly and another pilot to effectively pilot it.

Nothing in these movies have implied that it needs two pilots or soul of an Adam to operate. It was still active even when Kaworu, an angel died and only Shinji was left alive. Even Gendo pilots it alone just fine.
The reason why it needed two pilots was for the spears to work in the 4th impact.

[Konja7]

The reason why it needed two pilots was for the spears to work in the 4th impact.

I don't think this is implied either. After all, Shinji was the only one to take the spears in 3.0

In 3.0, Eva 13 seems to need two pilots.

It is possible Gendo could pilot Eva 13 alone, because Kaworu's soul seems to be in that Eva (after his death).

[Raikyu]

It was still active even when Kaworu, an angel died and only Shinji was left alive.

Yeah, the mechanics of Eva 13 are still a mystery. Tbh nothing is implied, so everything can be a possibility.

It is possible Gendo could pilot Eva 13 alone, because Kaworu's soul seems to be in that Eva (after his death).

That's the only explanation that I can think at the moment too.

[Gendo's Glasses]

I thought the two souls for Evangelion 13 were so it was able to breach the barrier above Lillith? Kaworu mentions that is why they need to be in sync, for one.

[DantesInferno]

I thought the two souls for Evangelion 13 were so it was able to breach the barrier above Lillith? Kaworu mentions that is why they need to be in sync, for one.

The actual words by Kaworu re: the need for two pilots are:

It takes two souls to take home the two spears

(translation mine)

It seems weird though, given that apparently you just need to pull them out. Perhaps that wouldn’t imbue them with the necessary power to be used in fourth impact? (elaborating on what Giji Shinka said above).

[Konja7]

The actual words by Kaworu re: the need for two pilots are:

It takes two souls to take home the two spears

(translation mine)

It seems weird though, given that apparently you just need to pull them out. Perhaps that wouldn’t imbue them with the necessary power to be used in fourth impact? (elaborating on what Giji Shinka said above).

Thanks for the translation.

However, Kaworu doesn't know that the Fourth Impact would start. Then, his phrase wouldn't be related to that.

His plans seems to be the restoration of the world. So maybe two souls taking the spears of Longinnus and Cassius would be necessary for that.

[Pluto]

Ok I'm gonna give a really super rough outline from this video which goes into all the details behind this.

This really isn't in my purview of expertise and I really don't have the time/effort to go through the specifics because it just makes a lot of sense when you see it. I might get into the particulars of this video at a later time.

This is going to sound weird but the explanation originates from an obscure episode of ultraman and the book of revelations.


We can think of the 4 battleships and Eva Opfer Types (Adam's Vessels) as the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse. Each of the colors on the Eva Opfer Types correlate to the colors of the four horsemen of the apocalypse in the book of revelations. They're clones of the 4 adams that we see in the second impact flashback in 2.0. They are also referred to as the guardians of Guf (I think this refers to the ships). They're needed for the ritual but they are NOT the trigger. Essentially, Gendo and Fuyutsuki drive Nerv HQ and the black moon to Antarctica so that they can turn the black moon into two spears. They need the energy from the battleships/Opfer types to convert the black moon into two spears. (I think there's like a total 4 or 6 spears in all -- I don't remember). In the video they also mention something about the 5th cross having to do with the ultraman episode as well and it's context to the plot of eva (but I forgot this part already).

That is to say, in short, Gendo and Fuyutsuki are trying to recreate the conditions from the second impact and manipulate it. You need 4 Adams, some spears, and a "power source". The Wunders represent the horses and the adams represent the horsemen of the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse in revelation. The Adams need souls so you've got the Advanced Ayanami Series to pilot the adam clones (Eva Opfer types). The energy from 4 Wunders + 4 Adams = enough energy to convert the black moon into two spears.

The trigger for an impact is an ascended or the pseudo deified form of an evangelion (same as we've seen in 2.0 and Q absorbing the fruit of life etc). It seems a pseudo deified form is needed to enter the minus space. I took it as Gendo can pilot Eva 13 because he used the key of Nebuchadnezzar which is pretty much what they say when he's trying to take back Eva 01.

Again, if you'd like more detail/clarification the video link I posted has most of the info sketched out in detail with a bit of literary allusion sidebars.

[DantesInferno]

Great post, Pluto.

Regarding the spears, apparently it’s 6 in total (not 4), and this is mentioned by Gendo in the movie. The two we see in Q, and later in Shin (one of which reverts to the Cassius shape Kaworu expected, when Shinji grabs it with Eva-01) are supposed to be “the last two” of those 6 (again, as per the dialogue).

This number is puzzling, given that there are four Adams and one Lilith (5). Perhaps the mysterious fifth cross at the epicenter of 2I has something to do with it. I think it has one of the ultraman symbols (see this Japanese page: http://evaq.web.fc2.com/q/04kousatu/03adams.html)when seen through the Wunder monitor “schematic view” for a split second, before it switches to actual video feed.

Edit: these are the images from the link above:

[Raikyu]

This number is puzzling, given that there are four Adams and one Lilith (5). Perhaps the mysterious fifth cross at the epicenter of 2I has something to do with it. I think it has one of the ultraman symbols (see this Japanese page: http://evaq.web.fc2.com/q/04kousatu/03adams.html)when seen through the Wunder monitor “schematic view” for a split second, before it switches to actual video feed.

So, this implies that Kaworu, just like in the original continuity, is related to Adam/Adams. I'm still confident in my theory about a central fifth Adam, whose soul reincarnated in Kaworu and its body became Evangelion 13.

I still don't exclude the possibility of the vessels (that later became the Opfer Evangelions) being "remotely" controlled by the main Adam. Maybe anyone that has seen Shin Eva can confirm (or reject) this hypothesis, but at least in Q, Mark 9 became "autonomous" when Eva 13 awakened.

[DantesInferno]

This number is puzzling, given that there are four Adams and one Lilith (5). Perhaps the mysterious fifth cross at the epicenter of 2I has something to do with it. I think it has one of the ultraman symbols (see this Japanese page: http://evaq.web.fc2.com/q/04kousatu/03adams.html)when seen through the Wunder monitor “schematic view” for a split second, before it switches to actual video feed.

So, this implies that Kaworu, just like in the original continuity, is related to Adam/Adams. I'm still confident in my theory about a central fifth Adam, whose soul reincarnated in Kaworu and its body became Evangelion 13.

I still don't exclude the possibility of the vessels (that later became the Opfer Evangelions) being "remotely" controlled by the main Adam. Maybe anyone that has seen Shin Eva can confirm (or reject) this hypothesis, but at least in Q, Mark 9 became "autonomous" when Eva 13 awakened.

Somebody hypothesized that each Adams could control its assigned vessel (in this case, Eva-13 and Mark 9), independent of any “central Adams”. I don’t rule out its existence though; it would explain a thing or two.

What I do think is that the four Adams weren’t separate entities from the beginning. I think the “seed of life” thing from NGE pretty much still stands, amd having Adam and Lilith both land on the same planet already is enough of a coincidence; but one Lilith and four Adams (and all four on the south pole) is outright implausible.

I think one Adam landed on antarctica and, either spontaneously or by human intervention, A) split into four (no “central Adams”) or B) Spawned four children (“central Adams + four Adams seen in the flashback”).

The only major problem with the central Adams hypothesis is, all depictions of second impact or its effects (save for the 5 crosses seen in Shin) suggest four Adams, including “Until You Come to Me”.

[Blockio]

It's obviously out of date by a bit, but the basic ideas of Reichu's theories still stand in some key ways. Specifically this portion here is relevant for this thread.

[Raikyu]

It's obviously out of date by a bit, but the basic ideas of Reichu's theories still stand in some key ways. Specifically this portion here is relevant for this thread.

It's interesting how Reichu was able to predict that Evangelions mark 09-12 were the Adams' Vessels (or their cores), and now we know that they are known as Opfer.

Before the release of Shin Eva, I used to speculate, that before the second impact, there was indeed an original Adam that exploded, which resulted in the 4 Adams. I excluded that idea after knowing that Eva 13 ("one of the surviving Adams") and the 4 Opfer Units exist at the same time. Unless the original survived and regenerated. Or it was artificially regenerated and repurposed as Evangelion 13, which may explain why it lacks a Fruit of Life and needed to consume the Twelfth Angel.

[DantesInferno]

It's obviously out of date by a bit, but the basic ideas of Reichu's theories still stand in some key ways. Specifically this portion here is relevant for this thread.

It's interesting how Reichu was able to predict that Evangelions mark 09-12 were the Adams' Vessels (or their cores), and now we know that they are known as Opfer.

Before the release of Shin Eva, I used to speculate, that before the second impact, there was indeed an original Adam that exploded, which resulted in the 4 Adams. I excluded that idea after knowing that Eva 13 ("one of the surviving Adams") and the 4 Opfer Units exist at the same time. Unless the original survived and regenerated. Or it was artificially regenerated and repurposed as Evangelion 13, which may explain why it lacks a Fruit of Life and needed to consume the Twelfth Angel.

Yes; I’m surprised that even though Reichu could predict four Adams Vessels (Mark 09~12), he didn’t make the final step and predict the four Wunders! In retrospect, it seems obvious (four Adams, four vessels, the vessel we see in Q is “Wunder’s original/intended master”…)

I do not think the vessels are the original cores extracted from the Adams though. In Shin we learn that Nerv can manufacture them at will (if not easily), and thus they could replace the Mark 09 that was destroyed at the end of Q.

[Heaven Piercing Man]

Predicting the 4 Opfer Evas was not hard, considering that the action figures of Black Mark.09 from the climax of Q were named "Evangelion Mark.09 - First Adams Vessel", and we knew there were 4 Adams.

Nobody expected 4 Wunders. We thought the AAA Wunder was some kind of exception, a special something WILLE got their hands on. Even when we were expecting a Dark Wunder, somehow we didn't connect the dots between [4 Adams]-[Mark.09 being called the "First" Vessel]-[Mark.09 being related and possibly the missing core of Wunder] to arrive at the now obvious [there must be 4 Wunders paired with each vessel]

[UrsusArctos]

Predicting the 4 Opfer Evas was not hard, considering that the action figures of Black Mark.09 from the climax of Q were named "Evangelion Mark.09 - First Adams Vessel", and we knew there were 4 Adams.

"Not hard?" Really? The only person who ever predicted that in advance was Reichu.

[Heaven Piercing Man]

I have no bloody idea, and the internet is bigger than our circlejerk. I remember long ago, when an action action figure for Mark.09 First Adams Vessel (Transitional Intermediate Form) came out, I posted alongside others "what, FIRST Adams Vessel? You mean there are 3 more of these abominations?" or something like that as a throwaway observation. We weren't that hardcore to keep tabs on that observation.

Can't remember for the life of me in what corner of the internet this took place.

EDIT: I remembered. It was on ETI/LUElinks, a gamefaqs spinoff message board which is now a shell of what it used to be.