Issues with the Religious Imagery

[Felipe]

Has anyone ever had any problems with all the religious references because you don't believe in any of it? Sure, if I could only enjoy "realistic" fiction I surely wouldn't watch most fiction, but since our western culture is so deeply filled with christianity as it is, I'd feel something of an aversion in the past because of that.

I already came to terms with it, actually, but I'd like to know if anyone else has ever felt similarly.

[Blue Monday]

Not really, but I do tire quickly when people take it too literally. In-setting it's all FAR stuff anyway technically, just subconsciously trickled down to lilin religion(s).

Wish it were that cool in real life.

[pwhodges]

I'd have thought that people who believe would be more likely to have a problem, because the imagery has so very little to do with actual religious belief.

[Felipe]

I never thought of it that way; you're probably right, actual christians would probably be much more bothered by it.

Now, since we know that the christian imagery was used to give an alien feeling, what kind of belief system or mythology do you think could be used to convey the same kind of thing to a western audience?

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I found that the trick is to not let the religious visuals become too important to the show. In fact, Anno has said several times that he chose the names and explosion types he did simply because he thought they looked cool.

Now some of the religious symbolism does have significant meaning in the show, but it isn't because the religious source said it had significance. The shape of the cross meant nothing in the world of Evangelion until Episode 12, when we are shown that Misato got her cross-shaped necklace from her father when he died to save her from Second Impact. This is the first time the cross shape in Eva was associated with a deeper meaning, in this case it meant sacrifice. Yet this meaning wasn't applied to the explosions in the series until The End of Evangelion, when the cross-shaped explosion turned into wings as Unit 01 was sacrificed by Seele to cause Third Impact. The cross never infers the sacrifice of Jesus specifically, but it does infer sacrifice in the broader sense of the term, and only when it's applied to such imagery by the series itself.

The same thing goes for Kabbalic imagery in the series. Sure, the left side of the body signifies defense while the right side signified attack in the series, but that defense doesn't stretch back into defending one's ancestry as it does in Kabbalah. Shinji had no ancestry in the series in which he had to defend. His dad was a jerk he never desired to want to care about, and his mother Yui was fighting most of the time any sort of body orientation was important to a fight. And Yui was fighting and defending for Shinji's future, not his past.

So when it comes to religious imagery in Eva, I found it best to take the broad generalized interpretation of the imagery, and only when the show itself suggests it. The only significance to the title "Neon Genesis Evangelion" (lit. translation: "New One Begins Good Tidings") is to set up everyone who knows Greek for a happy ending that never truly occurs in an honest sense; not to infer any religious "Gospel" of sorts. (AKA: Anno subverting more expectations.) Shinji either accepts Third Impact or denies it, depending on which way you swing on the EoTV theories. Either way, the Earth is now fucked and it's all humanity's fault. There is no promised "Good Tidings."

[Xard]

NGE's appropriation of judeochristian imagery isn't really any different from people having yin-yang symbols as some sort of vague fashion statements etc. so I don't think there're much grounds to be offended.

What Eva does isn't terribly out-of-line for fiction anyway. I think something like Dan Simmon's Hyperion would be far more offensive than Eva with all its far more blatant and overblown wack.

In the end it's just piece of fiction and as such not real issue

[riffraff11235]

NGE's appropriation of judeochristian imagery isn't really any different from people having yin-yang symbols as some sort of vague fashion statements etc. so I don't think there're much grounds to be offended.

This. I think it was actually stated by Anno that the Christian symbols were used to give the series an "alien" feel, at least for most Japanese people who aren't that familiar with Western relgions. He also said that had the folks at Gainax known at the time that NGE would gain this kind of popularity outside of Japan, they may have done things differently.

There has definitely been some sound analysis into this over the years, resulting in many thematic connections being made between NGE and the Judeo-Christian religions. But if we take Anno at his word, the choice to use these religious themes was arbitrary and carries no deeper meaning.

I personally don't mind how these symbols were used; I just saw it as a stylistic choice when I was watching the series. I'm not a believer to begin with, so I don't know how much my opinion really counts here.

[pwhodges]

what kind of belief system or mythology do you think could be used to convey the same kind of thing to a western audience?

Well, RahXephon used Mayan, Aztec and Inca themes for the purpose quite effectively.

[JoeD80]

The only significance to the title "Neon Genesis Evangelion" (lit. translation: "New One Begins Good Tidings")

Well the Japanese title is Shin-Seiki Evangelion. I think the sense of the word Evangelion here is "gospel"; Shin-Seiki is "New Century" so the title would be "New Century Gospel."

As for the English being "Neon Genesis" I think it was Anno who said he had the idea for Japanese/English titles that don't quite match because American films would often have very different Japanese titles (and it was applied to the episode titles as well.)

[Mr. Tines]

It was clear from the get-go that the religious trappings were done in the same way that a Western production might use cod-Buddhism for an exotic taste. And it's not as if this were the first or last time this sort of things has been done in anime or manga -- I remember reading years back of a series (it might have been Tezuka's Flying Ben) where a Benedictine monastery had a line in magical potions as well as the usual liqueur, because that was what mysterious foreign cults did; and latterly we have nuns from the Church of England also being the Index of Expurgated Books (a Catholic notion).

But then I'm the sort of atheist who will quite happily read Dante in the spirit of it being the science-fiction of its day (and packing more hours per cc reading time than most books, it's excellent for trans-Atlantic flights).

[riffraff11235]

But then I'm the sort of atheist who will quite happily read Dante in the spirit of it being the science-fiction of its day (and packing more hours per cc reading time than most books, it's excellent for trans-Atlantic flights).

La Divina Commedia is an amazing read! I'm in the middle of Il Purgatorio right now with my dad. I feel so lucky to be able to read it in the original vernacular! I don't know if we'll read any of his other works when we're done with the Divine Comedy, though....

Sorry, just had to gush there. Most people I've met don't even know who Dante is....

[Atropos]

Eva doesn't actually have Judeo-Christian themes, so I see no reason to object to its usage of religious imagery. Actually religious people can probably just apply whatever meaning they want to it.

[chaosakita]

wtf Evangelion has almost no religious references. Christian imagery, yes, but, like it has been bought up millions of times, none of it means anything. It is about religious as Avatar the Last Airbender.

[Blue Monday]

Most people I've met don't even know who Dante is....

That dude from Devil May Cry, right?

Right?

[riffraff11235]

That dude from Devil May Cry, right?

Right?

[Dream]

Like Freaky Film Fan said i think the religious imagery is just intended in the broader sense of the concept the images in themselves represent rather than any religious meaning they might have inside christianism. Like with the cross, sacrifice. The childrens/saviors who have to suffer for the sake of humanity, etc. However, i don't think the meanings would necessarily have to be expanded or developed in the series for it to have any meaning or bearing, i had the impression of crosses=sacrifice way before ep 12, for example. Can't really say anything about the Kabbalistic references though.

And on topic: I don't think anyone who wasn't particularly religious or anti-religious cared very much about it, even if they weren't used to anime's apparent tendency to incorporate foreign religions to their works. Also, no offence, but i really don't get what you mean with being averse towards christian imagery due to it being so prevalent on your culture, but i guess that's just me.

[A.T. Fish]

Also, no offence, but i really don't get what you mean with being averse towards christian imagery due to it being so prevalent on your culture, but i guess that's just me.

I think he means that, as an atheist, he was tired of it being so ubiquitous. I can relate to that, it's not fun being constantly surrounded by judgemental religious intolerance. In my case, though, that only made Evangelion even more interesting, since I was in a turning point regarding my religious views at the time I watched it for the first time (I was raised catholic, but at that time I was defying my parents in regard to their religion, and they didn't like that) and it felt like rebelling against christianity.

[Tribblepoo]

Well, that is who Dante is, isn't it?

[Oral Stage]

I originally took the show to be anti-theistic. This was before i ever typed Evangelion into google. It was because the show's villain, if it has one, is trying to invent god and ends up needlessly torturing his own son as a result. It seems the fact that he used the chamber of guf symbol in the way he did shows Anno has some idea of the original significance of the symbols he used.

On topic, my brothers actually had some trouble watching it until I explained that Christianity is rare in Japan and that Eva isn't likely to be a devotional work.

[Felipe]

Now that I think of it, the christian imagery doesn't bother me much as an atheist; what's a little annoying is the importance given to the "Souls". Even though I'm willing to accept that in this particular work of fiction souls exist, I always find myself trying to justify it by a naturalist point of view (maybe they mean "mind" or the brain). Then I remember Ritsuko explaining the dummy system, saying that they can copy all the thought patterns but it's not a real soul nonetheless.

I guess the best I could come up with is that "Soul" means the true Self, and not the perceived one that they all talk about when Instrumentality is happening.


(On a side note, I've always heard that "Instrumentality" is a better translation than "Complementarity", which is how it's usually translated in Portuguese, my native language. But doesn't "Complementarity" make more sense since all the separate Selves of all humanity "complement" each other to make just one giant Self?)