The Wille People

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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[SPOILERS] The Wille People

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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:08 pm

In the Navy!! :jiggy:

Anyway, creating this thread for the non-Misato crewmembers of Wille of the more serious nature (opening title and joke notwithstanding), until/unless further need arises to separate them out more.

View Original Postbladerj wrote:After seeing the eye glow in the trailer i can confirm my fears, ritsuko is a lying bitch and was witholding information from Misato and anno was planing a crueler fate to Asuka after she survived the ordeal. I'm thinking ritsuko will use Asuka angel as card under the sleeve like the casper sequence in eoe against gendo and Shinji will have to kaworu her.
Well, a problem with this is that Ritsuko has had ample opportunity to betray Wille in crucial matters for Gendo and hasn't. She designed the DSS Collar, and it worked; wasn't faulty. Also when Misato was hesistating to detonate the collar as Shinji was escaping, Ritsuko was counseling her that she has to do it or else all could be lost. I hardly think that actually happening would have been in-line with Gendo's scenarios.

A further point about Ritsuko that I thought I saw elsewhere but wanted to get in a central place: Significance of her haircut. Incase it's not common enough knowledge already, it's common in Japan to cut your hair when you break up with someone, have a significant change of heart or self, break with the past, etc. Obviously it's been 14 years and she likely would have grown it out into something else if she felt like it after a while, or could have cut it for any other reason, but assuming that things like this hold meaning for the viewer to parse is hardly beyond the pale.

To be fair I don't recall if any attraction from her towards Gendo was expressed even remotely in the earlier two films, but the implication shouldn't be lost on us, I would think. Of all the characters, she's the one with the most drastic character design change and hair change. (er, aside from Sakura of course)

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:28 pm

I recall 1.0 (maybe 2.0) have vague implications that maybe Gendo and Ritsuko had something going on--but only viewers that saw the original would pick up on any of that.

What sticks out most in my mind is keeping Ritsuko's concern over Gendo ("It's dangerous! Please stay back!" as well as the look of concern/confusion) during the Eva-00 activation test. Maybe 1.0's bar scene with Misato and Ritsuko could imply Ritsuko and Gendo had a relationship, too.
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Postby Azathoth » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:32 pm

I seem to recall that 2.0 specifically altered Kaji's "you're in a sad love" line to something less foreshadowy. Honestly at this point Ritsuko has so little character compared to her NGE-version that I wouldn't be too surprised if the haircut is all we get on the subject one way or the other.
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Postby Darkwing » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:23 pm

Considering how fast Rei Q got there after they got Shinji back, and how good the timing is I wouldn't be surprised if Gendo has a spy in WILL-E. But Ritsuko is to obvious a choice if you've seen the original. I figure we'll find out that it's someone else.
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:14 pm

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Postby Darkwing » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:43 pm

Different viewpoints on things. Different opinions. Well I've got to go back and re-watch 2.22 sometime, so I'll be on the look out for how Shinji interacts with others.

A lot is still contingent on actually seeing how things play out in 3.0 once I actually see it. So WILL-E may or may not be so bad towards Shinji. Still, I don't think they did a good job making him want to stay with them. Time could have been a big factor though. Shinji didn't have much of a chance to be with them, or for his shock to wear off.

Actually we're just going around in circles with this aurgument now. Probably not going to get anywhere until more people get to actually see the movie.

In universe, WILL-E probably does hate Gendo even more. After all he used most of them.

I think peoples feelings for Shinji and WILL-E is a viewpoint thing. It has to do with how you view Shinji. Some view him as a worthless whiney idiot who won't own up to his own mistakes. Others view him as a confused kid who was thrown in way over his head, and just ends up used an manipulated.
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Postby Azathoth » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:53 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:People insist on laying blame with this new faction for trying to put some safeguards in place to make sure another Impact isn't triggered. It's beyond baffling that such measures end up putting them at the end of the wrath of legions of the very otaku for whom Anno's message here of growing up and taking responsibility seems to be falling on deaf ears.


There's not much baffling about it. NGE Shinji's near-constant victimization led people to automatically sympathize with him (not in the sense that they find him to be a good person since the prevailing sentiment in that direction was and is "what a pussy lol amirite :dildos:" but rather in the sense that the audience is deliberately led to think about Shinji as a victim of circumstance for the vast majority of the show, and consequently does): it's only in the last few episodes and in EoE that Anno really tears into Shinji (and himself as well), a change to which most people respond with simple confusion. EoE in particular is enough of a clusterfuck on a textual level that its subtext simply goes over the head of its audience, who are more concerned with trying to figure out what is actually going on than they are with trying to parse out psychoanalytic bullshit/genre cliches/avant-garde nonsense/occult shit. And so, because Shinji was working for Nerv, people miss the fact that Nerv was kind of evil all along, even if the rank and file were pretty well blameless and the opposition they faced was every bit as evil if not more so.

Rebuild of Eva is much more obvious about it (although clearly still not obvious enough for some). There is very little pretense on Anno's part that NME's Shinji is a sympathetic character and by the time 3.0 rolls around there's almost no pretense that Nerv are anything but bad guys. As it turns out, being vaguely pathetic and the center of attention is enough to qualify you as a heroic protagonist in the eyes of anime fandom, even if you're also working for the evil cult mastermind and literally out to destroy the world to make yourself happy. And if some lady says she's gonna blow you up if you try? She must be the real monster here. In a way it's quite interesting that Anno has managed to elicit hate for Wille, the obligatory secret institute of super robots dedicated to saving the world from alien monsters, simply by setting Shinji on the other team. When the existence of Wille was first revealed in spoilers I pointed out that it seemed pretty significant that Anno's favorite characters get put on the same team as the girl whose purpose as a character is to destroy Eva - and of course they get set up to fight the Ikari family. I still think it's significant, but with everything else that's come out about the film I think the significance is utterly goddamn transparent. If anyone is seriously suggesting that Wille are bad guys or that Misato is genuinely "wrong" to threaten to blow Shinji's head off if he winds up doing such-and-so (which he actually does later in the movie), they are being denser than they have any right to be. Which is not particularly baffling.

And yeah, Gendou and Seele certainly are reprehensible people for scheming their way into getting Fourth Impact, but at the risk of turning this into another derail about Shinji being a contemptible shit, all Shinji had to do to stymie their plans and fuck the bad guys in the ass was, y'know, pay attention to the mystic alien kid and not fuck around with superweapons he didn't understand.
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:10 pm

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Postby Darkwing » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:44 pm

Audience expectations play a role in it. There's the assumption that Shinji, being the protagonist, must be sympathetic. Although that is a fallicy, that the protagonist is sympathetic, or even the hero. But the tendency to assume the protagonist is the hero, or the sympathetic one tends to be deeply ingrained. Now as for WILL-E, meh not much I can add as is. On a meta level, their "Make him sit is out so he can't make things worse" plan is doomed to failure. Since he's the lead narritive causality won't let him sit it out. In universe it's a fairly sensible plan, and if not for Rei 9's fast arrival and Kawrou getting the collar might have worked. We'll also have to wait and see where Final takes Shinji and WILL-E.

On another topic, I would assume that WILL-E and Nerv are not the only living people on the planet. If they were, there would be no need for the "restore the oceans" coverstory. I mean Gendo is not dumb enough to fall for that
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Postby Reichu » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:01 pm

Darkwing: Just so you (and innumerable other people) know... "WILL-E" is (almost certainly) an Internet joke that got out of hand. ("It's like WALL-E with one letter difference, olololol!!!") It's just "Wille". Even spelled this way in the official movie booklet.
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Postby Darkwing » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:04 pm

So I was sorta more right when I was doing it as one word. Thanks for the heads up.

Oh yeah something I've been wondering about where Wille's uniforms are concerned. Is it just me or do they look a bit like the early plug suit designs from original Eva's concept art?
I'm not sure what I feel about Eva anymore, but I'm pretty sure I don't actually enjoy the series anymore.

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Postby NemZ » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:40 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:Rebuild of Eva is much more obvious about it (although clearly still not obvious enough for some). There is very little pretense on Anno's part that NME's Shinji is a sympathetic character and by the time 3.0 rolls around there's almost no pretense that Nerv are anything but bad guys.


I'm still on Team Shinji for now, regardless of who his convenient allies of the moment are, and I'm not particularly convinced Nerv is actually in the wrong just because they choose not to share the full truth with people who aren't prepared to understand it. Then again, I've always been sympathetic to Gendo.

And if some lady says she's gonna blow you up if you try? She must be the real monster here.


Not a monster, no, but she's long since lost the "good guy" label. 3.0 is a world where there is no white, no black... just grey and red.

Wille may have a different cause, a different philosophy, but ultimately they're just using him for their own purposes the same way Gendo is. Shinji owes these people NOTHING.

all Shinji had to do to stymie their plans and fuck the bad guys in the ass was, y'know, pay attention to the mystic alien kid and not fuck around with superweapons he didn't understand.


And then what, go back to being imprisoned and/or executed? From the moment he accepts this plan with Kaworu there is no going back so he might as well try the damn spears even if piano boy is confused.

Hell, they should all be glad he didn't decide to get revenge when they killed Kaworu. If they're going to treat him like a monster he might as well act the part.
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Postby Merkaba » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:03 am

I 100 percent agree with everything Nemz says.
Why is Nerv an evil organization? Because they wish to create an event that ultimately ends the sorrow of the masses?
Also, Misato attaching a bomb to Shini's neck so she can get what she wants ISN'T "evil?"

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Postby Na7e » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:26 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Wille may have a different cause, a different philosophy, but ultimately they're just using him for their own purposes the same way Gendo is. Shinji owes these people NOTHING.


Except you know Wille have no interest in using him in the slightest.

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Postby NemZ » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:41 am

View Original PostNa7e wrote:Except you know Wille have no interest in using him in the slightest.


They're using him as a lab specimen and a cultural scapegoat. Possibly as a hostage to keep 01 in line. Probably eventually as bait for Nerv, as a political selling point to whatever nation or nations support them, and as a final 'godzilla threshold' option. They didn't really want him back in the first place but he was a package deal with 01, and once they have him they certainly have no plans to allow him a normal life.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:50 am

This looks like it's fast repeating the Misato/Shinji thread's rhythms. I encouraged Seele00TextOnly to create this so that there would be a serious thread for discussing the non-Misato, non-Eva pilot Wille staff as characters. She indicates as much in her OP.

Could we stick to that, please?
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:52 am

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Postby NemZ » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:11 am

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:Nothing but baseless speculation here and you know it. It's actually kind of sad looking at this pitiful list of overreach and blatant falsehoods, especially from a Gendo defender.


They do all seem to blame him for the impact but nobody's giving him any credit for stopping the angel before that, which pretty much required him to go all super mode on it. They should be thanking him for the lives of all who remain, not blaming him for those who didn't make it. Also since he wakes up in a lab literally marked as a sample in the midst of a variety of tests the 'lab rat' comment is completely accurate.

After that it was just speculation, sure (and I worded them as such), but it all makes sense as reasons they'd probably try to use him. It's what I'd do with him if I were in Misato's position, though I'd also have a more friendly approach. 'The thing on your neck is a life support device', 'if you pilot eva again you'll probably never come back out', that sort of thing.
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Postby Ornette » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:32 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:This looks like it's fast repeating the Misato/Shinji thread's rhythms. I encouraged Seele00TextOnly to create this so that there would be a serious thread for discussing the non-Misato, non-Eva pilot Wille staff as characters. She indicates as much in her OP.

Could we stick to that, please?

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:02 pm

Regarding the actual topic:

I'm wondering how Wille was formed to begin with. I guess it was over the course of 14 years with resources gradually building--although the crew IS a "bunch of civilians" (apparently the film's own words).

I mean, if Sakura is a member, I'm wondering if there are more Wille members (official or not), such as Toji and the rest, assuming they're still alive. Just because they're not flying around on the Wunder, maybe they're in different locations throughout the world. Sort of like a very scaled down Nerv.

It is interesting that their Fourth Impact prevention cover story (can't find the source anymore) is restoring the world's oceans to blue. Since Kouji is an old friend of Kaji's, I'd say it is safe to assume the groundwork for Wille was laid out during 2.0. (What little info there is about Wille so far is gathered here: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/13490/MASSIVE-SPOILERS-Explanation-of-Evangelion-30/ )

I don't have any thoughts yet on Sumire, Hideki, and Midori. Some kind of eventual supplemental materials or back-stories for these 5 new supporting characters would be great.
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