Shin Sekai Yori

[Defectron]

Poor Squeeler, I was kinda rooting for him to win.

But I do wonder whatever happened to the human children that got stolen. If he had any competant subordinates they could just lay low for awhile and continue his plan when the time came.

[Bagheera]

Poor Squeeler, I was kinda rooting for him to win.

He got what he deserved. Shame about Kiroumaru, though; he deserved better.

But I do wonder whatever happened to the human children that got stolen. If he had any competant subordinates they could just lay low for awhile and continue his plan when the time came.

Unlikely, given that their colonies were eradicated and those remaining would be disinclined to go along with the plan now that Saki knows the truth about things. I'm more curious about how she intends to build a better world, personally; expanding the death instinct to the queerats (in both directions) might be an awfully good start.

[Defectron]

I dunno, Squeeler may not have been the most ethical leader. But think about things from his point of view. Imagine the people of earth are being subjugated by godlike beings who will wipe out entire countries on a whim. If it would help get rid of them I think those sorts of methods would be the lesser of two evils. And lets face it, if he hadn't fought dirty, they wouldnt have stood any chance of winning at all.

Unlikely, given that their colonies were eradicated and those remaining would be disinclined to go along with the plan now that Saki knows the truth about things. I'm more curious about how she intends to build a better world, personally; expanding the death instinct to the queerats (in both directions) might be an awfully good start.

Personally I wouldve just gotten rid of the death feedback altogther, if everyone had the same abilities people would be less inclined to go on a rampage. Of course then you would see a return of things like crime, but given a choce between that and potentially having everyone get killed by a single fiend and sacrificing any children who exibit abnormal behavior, I would choose the latter.

But I'm not really sure if doing that or even modfying it int he way you suggested would be practical because both solutions would require the full cooporation of all humans and queerats, and both sides have a lot of obstinate people in them.

[Bagheera]

I dunno, Squeeler may not have been the most ethical leader. But think about things from his point of view. Imagine the people of earth are being subjugated by godlike beings who will wipe out entire countries on a whim. If it would help get rid of them I think those sorts of methods would be the lesser of two evils. And lets face it, if he hadn't fought dirty, they wouldnt have stood any chance of winning at all.

I think about it from his point of view and I wind up thinking Kiroumaru was the better rat by far. Fuck Squealer. His claims were bullshit start to finish.

Personally I wouldve just gotten rid of the death feedback altogther, if everyone had the same abilities people would be less inclined to go on a rampage. Of course then you would see a return of things like crime, but given a choce between that and potentially having everyone get killed by a single fiend and sacrificing any children who exibit abnormal behavior, I would choose the latter.

No, the lack of death feedback is what led to the WMD effects of psis on the global population. Without death feedback everyone dies, simple as that.

But I'm not really sure if doing that or even modfying it int he way you suggested would be practical because both solutions would require the full cooporation of all humans and queerats, and both sides have a lot of obstinate people in them.

Saki's on the Ethics Committee, she can make it happen.

[Defectron]

I think about it from his point of view and I wind up thinking Kiroumaru was the better rat by far. Fuck Squealer. His claims were bullshit start to finish.



No, the lack of death feedback is what led to the WMD effects of psis on the global population. Without death feedback everyone dies, simple as that.



Saki's on the Ethics Committee, she can make it happen.

I'm going to have to mostly disagree with a lot of this. While Squeelers methods weren't always nice, they were practical for the situation and worked for what he was trying to do. The only reason why Kiromaru didn't turn on the humans as well was because he never had a chance to do so. Would he have fought them differently? We don't really know that. But the thing is the humans treated the queer rats as disposable animals whose lives didn't mean anything, even in the case of a more understanding person like Saki she doesn't really view them as anything equal to a human until much later on in the series. So despite whatever evils Squeeler commited I can't help but feel they were at least somewhat justifiable considering what the queer rats were up against. Destroying all humans isn't an ethical solution to the problem, but if it comes down to you or the guys oppressing you, and there's a good chance it could have come down to that as even Kiromaru said if the winds of fortune ever changed they would be in trouble.

Now the reason why I disagree witht he lack of death feedback is because at this point in time, all regular humans have psionics, if someone goes out of control its like a guy with a gun, someone else just shoots him and thats the end of it. The times when there were problems they showed in past history were all when people with those powers were in the minority. That is until the reverse was true, in which case a single fiend could single handedly commit genocide because no one could fight back. Not to mention the needless killing of plenty of children, it seems to me that at this point in history taking off the feedback would be the lesser of two evils, if it were practical that is. The only forseeable problem I see is the humans could abuse the queer rats with their powers but that already happens. It would most likely come down to having to put a new regime in place that respects both species and strictly enforces any crimes against the less capable ones.

Of course an alterntive to that might be to find a way to remove the death feedback only on select indeviduals under special cercumstances, but once again this gets into slippery slope terretory, as all it takes is one guy with it removed to go nuts on everyone else. So I can't help but feel the first solution would probably be the most well balanced.

Now on the last point, Saki probably is in a good position to start some change. But her power to do so isn't absolute. The humans didn't care much for the queerrats before, and after the war I don't think it really helped their public opinions of them. Even someone in a position with Saki will have her hands full, such a change would most likely need multiple generations to take effect, but then again Tomiko did share her anti aging secret, so maybe she can see such things through to the end, but still I don't imagine that it would be easy.

[Bagheera]

I'm going to have to mostly disagree with a lot of this. While Squeelers methods weren't always nice, they were practical for the situation and worked for what he was trying to do.

So what? That doesn't mean they were justified.

The only reason why Kiromaru didn't turn on the humans as well was because he never had a chance to do so.

No, Kiroumaru didn't turn on the humans because he didn't see the need. He spelled this out in ep. 24.

Would he have fought them differently? We don't really know that. But the thing is the humans treated the queer rats as disposable animals whose lives didn't mean anything, even in the case of a more understanding person like Saki she doesn't really view them as anything equal to a human until much later on in the series.

They had no reason to consider them equals, because they're not. But their autonomy was nonetheless fully recognized, with humans only interfering with their affairs when their violent tendencies got out of control. The rats naturally didn't like having that power hanging over their head, but their respective leaders chose to respond to the threat differently -- Squealer with genocide, Kiroumaru with contingency. But we now see the folly of Squealer's route, and it's abundantly clear that Kiroumaru's nobility is the only reason the queerats weren't exterminated completely.

And now, with Saki in a position of influence, things might easily change for the better. But that's happening despite Squealer's approach, not because of it.

So despite whatever evils Squeeler commited I can't help but feel they were at least somewhat justifiable considering what the queer rats were up against.

That justification evaporates completely when you look at how he treated his queens. Nothing justifies that.

it seems to me that at this point in history taking off the feedback would be the lesser of two evils, if it were practical that is.

Not at all. Without death feedback humans would run amok and utterly destroy every living thing on Earth. The methods the current society uses are the only way to keep cantus users in check. And, given that Saki now understands that queerats are humans, the only way to keep them in check without making them a subservient race is to give them death feedback as well. If they can't kill humans humans have nothing to fear from them, and that means everyone will live in peace.

Now on the last point, Saki probably is in a good position to start some change. But her power to do so isn't absolute.

The fact that she ensured the survival of several colonies when everyone else wanted the species eradicated completely is proof of her influence. She's at the top of the food chain now, what she says goes. And yeah, she's pretty much immortal now, so there's that too.

[Paranoid]

No, Kiroumaru didn't turn on the humans because he didn't see the need. He spelled this out in ep. 24.

Saki: "You wanted to destroy mankind?"
Kiroumaru: "We might have tried if there was a reasonable hope of success."

Unless the translation was wrong, I think it's pretty clear that the main reason he didn't turn on humans was because he didn't feel he could win, not because he didn't see the need. He believes a pre-emptive strike against humans is the best thing for his people, just like Squealer does. He just disagrees with his methods.

They had no reason to consider them equals, because they're not.

Equals in power? Definitely not. Equals in intelligence and the need to be treated respectfully? Of course they were. Don't forget that the queerats used to be humans. If you're saying humanity had no reason to consider them equals, you're essentially saying it's fine to take other humans, forcibly mutilate them, and then treat them as if they were beneath you because they're not as strong as you are.

But their autonomy was nonetheless fully recognized, with humans only interfering with their affairs when their violent tendencies got out of control.

That's what the humans say. Kiroumaru, however, clearly states that a number of colonies were wiped out for completely obscure reasons. Given what we see in the show, I'm inclined to believe him. I think we can all agree that collective punishment is wrong either way.

That justification evaporates completely when you look at how he treated his queens. Nothing justifies that.

What he did to the queens was horrible, but committing one unjustifiable act doesn't mean everything you do is unjustifiable.

Not at all. Without death feedback humans would run amok and utterly destroy every living thing on Earth.

They can already destroy everything that isn't human. The death feedback isn't the only safety measure in place. The holy barrier is what keeps them from ravaging most things outside their village.
I'd like to raise another point regarding this. When the children learned of the death feedback in episode 4, they were shocked. You'd have to wonder why they were so shocked. If they had no clue that such a thing existed, then I infer from that that none of them had ever tried attacking another human. If they did, surely they would know that you feel sick if you do. There was nothing in the series that implied that death feedback manipulates your thoughts so that you wouldn't attack humans. It simply kicks in if you do. In other words, acts of violence were so rare to begin with that something as big as the death feedback could be kept a secret.
I'm really not so sure the world would crumble if humans got rid of the death feedback at this point.

[Defectron]

So what? That doesn't mean they were justified.



No, Kiroumaru didn't turn on the humans because he didn't see the need. He spelled this out in ep. 24.



They had no reason to consider them equals, because they're not. But their autonomy was nonetheless fully recognized, with humans only interfering with their affairs when their violent tendencies got out of control. The rats naturally didn't like having that power hanging over their head, but their respective leaders chose to respond to the threat differently -- Squealer with genocide, Kiroumaru with contingency. But we now see the folly of Squealer's route, and it's abundantly clear that Kiroumaru's nobility is the only reason the queerats weren't exterminated completely.

And now, with Saki in a position of influence, things might easily change for the better. But that's happening despite Squealer's approach, not because of it.



That justification evaporates completely when you look at how he treated his queens. Nothing justifies that.



Not at all. Without death feedback humans would run amok and utterly destroy every living thing on Earth. The methods the current society uses are the only way to keep cantus users in check. And, given that Saki now understands that queerats are humans, the only way to keep them in check without making them a subservient race is to give them death feedback as well. If they can't kill humans humans have nothing to fear from them, and that means everyone will live in peace.



The fact that she ensured the survival of several colonies when everyone else wanted the species eradicated completely is proof of her influence. She's at the top of the food chain now, what she says goes. And yeah, she's pretty much immortal now, so there's that too.

In regards to justification of Squeelers actions during the war, if he was to go to war with any intent of winning at all, then those actions are justified. The alternatives would either to be accept almost certain defeat or to not go to war at all and leave the future of his people to the winds of chance.

Kiromaru said he may have turned on them if he had found a weapon in the abandoned city, but he was unable to do so.

On your third point, the humans did aknowledge that to a degree, but if the queerrats even stepped out of line even a little, some of them such as the guy with the the fans were all too happy to wipe out half a colony as a warning. This apprently isn't uncommon as Kiromaru has said in the past entire colonys were wiped out for reasons even they didn't know. How would you feel if some aliens came down and just went about seemingly at random exterminating cities without telling people why? You wouldn't like that right?

In the case of the queens, while I might not have had them lobotomized, they seemed to be pretty tyrannical at least the one ruling squeelers colony. It was a good move taking them out of power, if some of our politicans got that same treatment I know wouldn't shed any tears over them. But yeah it probably would have been better to find a way to work with the queens without totally reversing their positions of slave and master. In terms of biological functionality, the queens are nessecery for their kind to survive, but if a queen is mad and tyrannical how do you fix that problem? Was there a better solution then what he did, quite possibly but I can't say for sure what that is.

In regards to the death feedback question I disagree, current humans don't have death feedback and there arent riots in the streets most of the time. I feel the primary reason for the abuse of the power was because as I said before there was an imbalance between those who had it and those who didn't. If you look at the real world you can see the same thing happen. A glaring example is politicians , corporate heads and other people like that will use their power to get away with greater crimes then even the worst criminal could hope to commit. In a less obvious way you can also see some police officers do that, for example I've seen videos of cops who bust a guy on some small offense shoot his dogs just because he can get away with doing so. It's human nature for those who are undisciplined to abuse power they have over those who have less and that is exactly what the early cantus users did. But the world changed since then, now all humans have cantus and I don't believe things would go that route if the death feedback were to suddenly dissapear.