Three Evas, two kids, and a treaty: What the hell?

[Legendary]

Okay, so I'm still pretty confused by this, so let's go. I'm hoping I'm misremembering something pretty badly here, but as I figure that asking you guys is easier than watching the movie again, let's do this:

2.22 has a sequence of events like this, correct?

1) Production Model 03 is completed and begins shipment to Japan.

2) Production Model 02 is shut down, despite that it has little to no damage. Prototype Model 00 is left online, despite having taken damage.

3) Rei is deemed the primary candidate for Eva-03's piloting.

4) Rei's dinner party is threatened by her having to pilot, so Asuka steps in and takes over.

See the problem? TWO separate shitty decisions are made! 1) Shutting down the better Eva; 2) Expecting a girl who already has an Eva to take over another one.

Imagine. What the hell were they going to do? Send Rei and Shinji out by themselves and let Asuka mope? Please someone tell me I'm remembering this wrongly. Because the wiki suggests I'm not. And if I'm not remembering this wrongly, then there's a pretty undeniable idiot ball being tossed around.

[Seele00TextOnly]

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[Legendary]

I'd like to add to that by noting that if this weird plot shit is as I remember it (and Seele backs me up it seems), then it means Asuka's arc in 2.22 is meaningless. The choice to pilot is painted as "I'm a pilot; I don't need friends," when really it seems to be, "I want a fucking job; give me a robot dammit."

EDIT: It gets better.

So, in the IRC hons pointed out to me that Germany ordered the shut down and that Eva-03 is a specific replacement for Eva-00. That causes two problems right away.

1) WHY THE FUCK WOULD EVEN THE MOST INCOMPETENT BUREAUCRACY OBJECT TO NERV-JAPAN USING EVA-02?!

To quote myself:

<Legendary> <Nerv> *uses Eva-02 successfully in two different battles*
<Legendary> <Bureaucracy> *orders Eva-02 to be shut down, damn the consequences*
<Legendary> <Humanity> *is much more fucked than it was a few minutes ago*

I mean, keep in mind they've already used Eva-02. Keep in mind that Asuka's been there a month at least.

2) If Rei is supposed to be in Eva-03, why does Asuka have the ability to supersede her?

Basically, the more I hear the less this makes sense. Hell, the way it is now, the Vatican Treaty seems irrelevant since Eva-02 is deactivated for reasons completely tangential to the three eva limit.

[Tarnsman]

To borrow /a/ mentality for a moment

>Anime
>Good writing
Pick one.

Joking aside, it's most likely that Anno wanted Asuka to be in Unit-03 and didn't want to bother with a well written reason so he just moved some crap around to shoehorn it in.

[Legendary]

....


That is the most terrible defense of a work I have ever heard, and I have seen people attempt to justify Twilight as literature.

EDIT: Hell, here's a well-written way of handling things!


Eva-02 was actually infected the WHOLE TIME! There is no Eva-03 or Eva-04! (Okay technically this means Mari piloted Eva-03 against Angel 3 and Kaworu has Eva-04 on the moon but you know what I mean) They just start Eva-02 up one day and then OH FUCK, BARDIEL. The audience would be hit upside the head with the WHAM STICK and would go "WOAH!" and then there wouldn't be a LOGICALLY QUESTIONABLE VATICAN TREATY, or a BIZARRE CHOICE IN WHO PILOTS WHAT.

And really, it would be kind of cool.

[Nonoriri]

....


That is the most terrible defense of a work I have ever heard, and I have seen people attempt to justify Twilight as literature.

EDIT: Hell, here's a well-written way of handling things!


Eva-02 was actually infected the WHOLE TIME! There is no Eva-03 or Eva-04! (Okay technically this means Mari piloted Eva-03 against Angel 3 and Kaworu has Eva-04 on the moon but you know what I mean) They just start Eva-02 up one day and then OH FUCK, BARDIEL. The audience would be hit upside the head with the WHAM STICK and would go "WOAH!" and then there wouldn't be a LOGICALLY QUESTIONABLE VATICAN TREATY, or a BIZARRE CHOICE IN WHO PILOTS WHAT.

And really, it would be kind of cool.

But then they couldn't have those "death flags" and the oh-so-ironic Asuka being "selfless", Rei thanking Asuka and other silly shit that doesn't actually wind up being worthwhile!

[MugwumpHasNoLiver]

Well, seeing as Rebuild is Anno's reaction to NGE, and could be read as a meta-textual commentary, these obvious, glaring (and some might say inexcusable) plot holes are being inserted in lieu of narrative ambiguity, in order to mock his previous auteur mindset. Anno is shedding his chrysalis, having long since abandoned the larval form of the introspective, precise writing of the depressed neurotic, and blossomed in the butterfly of the pandering, mainstream filmmaker. He is saying that being intentionally vague for artistic purposes, is just as bad as writing a story that makes no logical sense, and demonstrating that for his audience in the most straightforward fashion. If you dismiss what, at first, appears to be shoddy writing, or a miserable train-wreck of a plot that makes no sense, then you're dismissing the very crux of Anno's narrative art.

[Legendary]

Nonoriri: But they could have time to better establish Asuka as a sympathetic character and maybe have the end of her arc in this movie be less "FUCK THE MORAL OF THE STORY! I DON'T WANT FRIENDS!"

and more, "Wow. You guys are actually kind of cool and I'm glad I met you."

Then I would be less, "Oh look, bitchtits died," and more "Why, Anno, why?"


Muggy: But what about Derrida?

[Xard]

Well, seeing as Rebuild is Anno's reaction to NGE, and could be read as a meta-textual commentary, these obvious, glaring (and some might say inexcusable) plot holes are being inserted in lieu of narrative ambiguity, in order to mock his previous auteur mindset. Anno is shedding his chrysalis, having long since abandoned the larval form of the introspective, precise writing of the depressed neurotic, and blossomed in the butterfly of the pandering, mainstream filmmaker. He is saying that being intentionally vague for artistic purposes, is just as bad as writing a story that makes no logical sense, and demonstrating that for his audience in the most straightforward fashion. If you dismiss what, at first, appears to be shoddy writing, or a miserable train-wreck of a plot that makes no sense, then you're dismissing the very crux of Anno's narrative art.

Rebuild still has less plot holes than original though

[Seele00TextOnly]

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[Tarnsman]

Rebuild still has less plot holes than original though

Name one. "X wasn't explained" isn't a plot hole and neither is anything that falls into "what was the meaning of this scene". It has to directly contradict the story and established narrative (if it turned out that Misato was suddenly Shinji's mother), make absolutely no sense in a way that the only way it works is if every character involved in it acts like a complete retard (the event this thread is about), or be something critical to the story that isn't explained at all (if Evangelion Unit-01 suddenly turned into a giant caterpillar with no explanation).

[Sailor Star Dust]

2.22 has a sequence of events like this, correct? [SNIP]

You're misremembering. It goes like this (checked my copy for confirmation):

1) Dinner party stuff is planned. Everybody's invited, although Gendo arriving is a surprise by Rei for Shinji in hopes they'll bond. (Shinji doesn't find out Gendo was going to be there until Misato tells him post-Bardiel. A fansub or two didn't clarify this point well.)

2) Eva-02 is sealed away and the core is removed due to the Vatican Treaty, since Eva-02 is still under Europe's jurisdiction. (Part of the reason why Mari could pilot: her people in the IPEA were setting up Eva-02 accordingly (including placing a new core) during Zeruel's attack.) Asuka and Rei meet in the elevator and have their talk about Shinji. Shinji meanwhile is in his room wishing Gendo could be at the dinner party too.

The Vatican Treaty implies that getting Eva-03 is in exchange for another Eva being shut-away. Following the "Threes Evas per country" rule (Remember Misato's comment in Episode 17 or 18 about "With four Evas, we could destroy the world"? Seems to be playing off of that.) Eva-02 NEEDS to be under lock-down, and both America AND Seele are pushing this on Nerv HQ. They have no say in the matter.

Hell, a 2.0 Storyboarded scene implies Seele KNEW Eva-03 was going to get infected by an Angel (the 9th Angel?) and rambled on about how it's one step closer to their goals. (There's also Gendo's own with wanting Rei and Shinji in...whatever the hell his Third Impact plans are this time around, though nothing that made it in the final film implied Gendo sent Asuka into Eva-03 since it was her own choice.)

3) Kaji and Misato have dinner, Misato is nagged by Ritsuko to choose the Eva-03 pilot.

4) Eva-03 is meanwhile shipped to Japan.

5) Asuka gets the message about Eva-03 testing on her phone, SHE volunteers to pilot since it's the same day as Rei's dinner party.

6) Rei is having a checkup, Ritsuko says how she'll be leaving early so Maya's in charge, Rei requests to leave a message on Asuka's cell to thank her.

7) Asuka and Misato head to Matsushiro the next morning, Kensuke and Shinji talk about how great it is that Toji's sister is better (and how Shinji's a lucky bastard regarding the dinner party Rei's going to throw that afternoon) and we all know what quickly happens regarding Asuka's testing and Rei's dinner party.

_____

Do you mean our wiki is wrong? Last I checked it wasn't, but I'll look into that right now. Edit: I didn't see anything in the summary that indicates the information's wrong, the summary looks correct to me.

[cloudxsolder]

I MAY have an explanation. It's a long shot but possibly worthy of discussion

Gendo claims that for third impact and thus his version of instramentality he needs to move Rei closer to Shinji and vice versa. What better way than to make the other pilot redundant?

Knock Asuka out of the picture so It's just Rei and Shinji?

I know it doesnt pan out like that, but that may have been the initial reason. And besides, if things do get to hectic. It's not all that hard to re-actvate unit 02. (or so it seems)

Now that I think of it, is the reason they put unit 02 in 'deactivation/ storage' BECAUSE it was fully functional? Maybe they needed unit 00 active because it needed fixing. Perhaps the core and other things are needed to be 'awake' (whateva that means) to some degree in order for work to be done. Let's remember repairs unlcude working on flesh and possibly repairs to the brain, can't do that when its frozen. Thoughts?

[Tarnsman]

Asuka gets the message about Eva-03 testing on her phone, SHE volunteers to pilot since it's the same day as Rei's dinner party

That's the exact problem he's pointing out. Asuka shouldn't have had to volunteer. Rei was still the pilot of Unit-00, there was no reason to even consider her as the test pilot when there was a perfectly good pilot sitting around without an Evangelion. Unless Gendo secretly hates Asuka, which considering they still have never said a single word to each other might be the case.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Asuka did that so Rei wouldn't have to cancel the party because it was on the same day. I just added some points about this issue in my above post.

[Seele00TextOnly]

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[Legendary]

Eva-02 NEEDS to be under lock-down, and both America AND Seele are pushing this on Nerv HQ. They have no say in the matter.

Why not Eva-00, then? Seele states that it's served its purpose. Seems like a good one to get rid of, especially since it's LESS useful than Eva-02. Seele is holding the Idiot Ball here.

Misato is nagged by Ritsuko to choose the Eva-03 pilot.

Why is it taking so long?! There are three choices, and two of them have Evas. Misato is holding the Idiot Ball here.


The problem is that there are dozens of hoops that the characters jump through to get to one conclusion when there are infinitely simpler ways to get to it.

I MAY have an explanation. It's a long shot but possibly worthy of discussion

I *like* it, but nothing in 2.0 supports this.

[Tarnsman]

Asuka did that so Rei wouldn't have to cancel the party because it was on the same day. I just added some points about this issue in my above post.

I was saying Asuka shouldn't have HAD to volunteer. The conversation should have gone like this.
"Gendo we're getting Unit-03, what Eva do you want us to put into storage because of the treaty that makes no sense?"
"Place Unit-02 into storage and reassign the pilot to Unit-03"

Not like this.
"Gendo we're getting Unit-03, what Eva do you want us to put into storage because of the treaty that makes no sense?"
"Place Unit-02 into storage and have Rei pilot Unit-03"
"But shouldn't we use Asuka? She's sitting around doing nothing and Rei is still the pilot of Unit-00"
"No! Fuck Asuka, she doesn't get to pilot an Evangelion because I said so!"

[cloudxsolder]

I *like* it, but nothing in 2.0 supports this.

Well the way I sometimes see it. If its a possibility it could be the case. I won't loose sleep over it :)

[Legendary]

Yeah but the point is, it directly contradicts the stated motivations of every character (such as they are). There's no logical explanation for the hoops they drag the cast through because as we've pointed out, you can cut out a lot of the middle men by just moving Asuka from -02 to -03.