Nightweaver20xx wrote:I'm not an anime fan; I'm a fan of good fiction. The two are independent of each other. Just felt I had to add that.
But Evangelion is terrible fiction!
It's great metafiction though
NGE and Metafiction
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- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
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Evangelion is great metafiction BECAUSE it's great fiction, bitches.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
Deepfag bait dropped.
In all seriousness, I don't see how this "metafiction sub-thread" is related to the question whether Eva is only for otakus or not.
"I'd really like to have as much money as you have, Oz" - robersora
"No you wouldn't. Oz's secret is he goes without food to buy that stuff. He hasn't eaten in years." - Brikhaus
"Often I get the feeling that deep down, your little girl is struggling with your embrace of filmfaggotry and your loldeep fixations, and the conflict that arises from such a contradiction is embodied pretty well in Kureha's character. But obviously it's not any sort of internal conflict that makes the analogy work. It's the pigtails." - Merridian
"Oh, Oz, I fear I'm losing my filmfag to the depths of Japanese pop. If only there were more films with Japanese girls in glow-in-the-dark costumes you'd be the David Bordwell of that genre." - Jimbo
"Oz, I think we need to stage an intervention and force you to watch some movies that aren't made in Japan." - Trajan
"No you wouldn't. Oz's secret is he goes without food to buy that stuff. He hasn't eaten in years." - Brikhaus
"Often I get the feeling that deep down, your little girl is struggling with your embrace of filmfaggotry and your loldeep fixations, and the conflict that arises from such a contradiction is embodied pretty well in Kureha's character. But obviously it's not any sort of internal conflict that makes the analogy work. It's the pigtails." - Merridian
"Oh, Oz, I fear I'm losing my filmfag to the depths of Japanese pop. If only there were more films with Japanese girls in glow-in-the-dark costumes you'd be the David Bordwell of that genre." - Jimbo
"Oz, I think we need to stage an intervention and force you to watch some movies that aren't made in Japan." - Trajan
- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
- Age: 38
- Posts: 8005
- Joined: Feb 17, 2007
- Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
- Gender: Male
The metafiction in question (in NGE) was directed at Otakus...
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
True, but we seem to be discussing the quality of fiction/metafiction instead of its relation to otakus. Which is sort of offtopic.
"I'd really like to have as much money as you have, Oz" - robersora
"No you wouldn't. Oz's secret is he goes without food to buy that stuff. He hasn't eaten in years." - Brikhaus
"Often I get the feeling that deep down, your little girl is struggling with your embrace of filmfaggotry and your loldeep fixations, and the conflict that arises from such a contradiction is embodied pretty well in Kureha's character. But obviously it's not any sort of internal conflict that makes the analogy work. It's the pigtails." - Merridian
"Oh, Oz, I fear I'm losing my filmfag to the depths of Japanese pop. If only there were more films with Japanese girls in glow-in-the-dark costumes you'd be the David Bordwell of that genre." - Jimbo
"Oz, I think we need to stage an intervention and force you to watch some movies that aren't made in Japan." - Trajan
"No you wouldn't. Oz's secret is he goes without food to buy that stuff. He hasn't eaten in years." - Brikhaus
"Often I get the feeling that deep down, your little girl is struggling with your embrace of filmfaggotry and your loldeep fixations, and the conflict that arises from such a contradiction is embodied pretty well in Kureha's character. But obviously it's not any sort of internal conflict that makes the analogy work. It's the pigtails." - Merridian
"Oh, Oz, I fear I'm losing my filmfag to the depths of Japanese pop. If only there were more films with Japanese girls in glow-in-the-dark costumes you'd be the David Bordwell of that genre." - Jimbo
"Oz, I think we need to stage an intervention and force you to watch some movies that aren't made in Japan." - Trajan
Eva having substance or not has nothing to do with it being great fiction or not
Viewed strictly as fiction Evangelion is failure: glorious, eartshattering one but still failure nonetheless
Also, Evangelion has produced more doujins than any other work ever, excluding maybe Sailor Moon and a bit more likely Touhou. This means it's very much related to otaku interests...
Since that substance is a requirement for fiction actually having a story to speak of I disagree.
Viewed strictly as fiction Evangelion is failure: glorious, eartshattering one but still failure nonetheless
Howso?
We clearly use the word with different meanings. Otherwise I could never criticize any show as insubstantial if it has barest shred of a plot (and all shows have that) - implicitly under your definition all shows have substance.
The argument that broadly speaking has inspired my stance is to be found from my (still) all time favourite writing on NGE, Retro Exodus Harmageddon, but I'm definetly not going to translate that :P
As a self contained coherent narrative NGE's "failings" are well known and I don't see why I should start bringing them up from the disastrous unending and irresponsible abandonment of show's central narrative in EoTV to unbridgeable plot holes a la ep 24
I've seen stories that have very little. Some of them are highly praised, too.
The argument that broadly speaking has inspired my stance is to be found from my (still) all time favourite writing on NGE, Retro Exodus Harmageddon, but I'm definetly not going to translate that :P
Not much use here, then.
As a self contained coherent narrative NGE's "failings" are well known and I don't see why I should start bringing them up from the disastrous unending and irresponsible abandonment of show's central narrative in EoTV to unbridgeable plot holes a la ep 24
Meh. I thought you meant something significant.
- Eva Yojimbo
- Redbeard
- Age: 38
- Posts: 8005
- Joined: Feb 17, 2007
- Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
- Gender: Male
Bagheera, your interlocutor is making the mistake of secretly defining "successful fiction" in his own terms, failing to relate those terms to you, while continuing to argue NGE is a failure under that hidden definition. I'm sure you see the problem here. You see, the sun is a failed star under my definition of a failed star that I'm not going to tell you about, but I'm sure if you read this it will clear everything up.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
Heh. Yep, just so.
Xard, be more like NemZ. I don't agree with him about anything, but at least he manned up and explained his position and why he held it. I can easily respect that. Your "it's crap for obvious reasons I won't bother to explain" drek, OTOH...not so much.
- Guyver Spawn
- DNA Donor
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- Location: In the Shadow of the Abys
- Gender: Female
I'm not much of an otaku either since I'm more of a comic book type of guy (I do love anime and manga, but I will admit that I have not seen a huge amount of anime series) but NGE is my second anime series next to the original FMA anime (I have not seen the rest of FMA:BH yet).
Avatar: Rick (Splatterhouse)
Xbox live gamertag: Guyver Spawn 27
PSN: Hellspawn28
Xbox live gamertag: Guyver Spawn 27
PSN: Hellspawn28
On the topic of Eva's fictional quality:
I subscribe to a few simple rules when it comes to storytelling. One of them is that if you introduce something, you'd damned better be willing to resolve it. You can subvert the rules of storytelling, you can twist them in unorthodox ways; but at the end of the day you must still deal with them in some manner. You cannot simply ignore the laws of the narrative and then say 'it was for the art'. It doesn't work like that.
I love EoTV. It is a wonderful character introspection, I'm not doubting that. On that level, yes, it is art. But as far as a narrative conclusion to the story is concerned, it fails in most of the goals set forth by the series up to that point. The only thing it resolves is Shinji's emotional arc and by extension the theme of the series. And while that is definitely the centerpiece of the story, it is not by any means the only piece. All you've got is the one central fragment of a much greater tapestry. Asuka and Misato get introspection, but no resolution. Same with Rei. The other characters like Gendo and Ritsuko don't get anything.
And then there's the actual plot. The idea that it's unimportant because it was secondary to the characters is absurd; it's still part of the story and any good story will always put characters before plot anyway. You don't set up all that plot buildup and then drop it because it is 'unimportant'. The existence of EoE mitigates this problem (well...mostly), but just looking at the 26 episodes as itself, it fails spectacularly as a narrative work.
You can't just ignore the world, after all.
I subscribe to a few simple rules when it comes to storytelling. One of them is that if you introduce something, you'd damned better be willing to resolve it. You can subvert the rules of storytelling, you can twist them in unorthodox ways; but at the end of the day you must still deal with them in some manner. You cannot simply ignore the laws of the narrative and then say 'it was for the art'. It doesn't work like that.
I love EoTV. It is a wonderful character introspection, I'm not doubting that. On that level, yes, it is art. But as far as a narrative conclusion to the story is concerned, it fails in most of the goals set forth by the series up to that point. The only thing it resolves is Shinji's emotional arc and by extension the theme of the series. And while that is definitely the centerpiece of the story, it is not by any means the only piece. All you've got is the one central fragment of a much greater tapestry. Asuka and Misato get introspection, but no resolution. Same with Rei. The other characters like Gendo and Ritsuko don't get anything.
And then there's the actual plot. The idea that it's unimportant because it was secondary to the characters is absurd; it's still part of the story and any good story will always put characters before plot anyway. You don't set up all that plot buildup and then drop it because it is 'unimportant'. The existence of EoE mitigates this problem (well...mostly), but just looking at the 26 episodes as itself, it fails spectacularly as a narrative work.
You can't just ignore the world, after all.
Meh. All that crap was unimportant. We got enough to tell us that people who were dead were there in Instrumentality, and that everyone was getting the same treatment Shinji did, and that Shinji (and by implication everyone else) eventually worked it all out.
EoE was good and useful in its own way, and was a welcome addition to the story, but EoTV stands just fine on its own unless you want it to be something it's not supposed to be. And if you do, well, that says more about the viewer than the work.
EoE was good and useful in its own way, and was a welcome addition to the story, but EoTV stands just fine on its own unless you want it to be something it's not supposed to be.
Except that's telling and not showing (and not very good telling at that), and I consider that to be a copout. Especially in the case of the other character arcs (Granted, EoE does this too).
And if you do, well, that says more about the viewer than the work.
Mmm. Nice underhanded shot there.
But yes, thank you, I like to think that yes, I do at least grasp the basic concepts of EoTV. I did say I enjoyed it on that level, but I also have to look at things from a traditional storytelling level. I can't just ignore a fault in something because 'that's not the central point'. I mean, I am allowed to point out problems and still see the good points, yes?
No, it's exactly the opposite. It gives us enough to work it out and then focuses on the main thrust of the story. We don't need to see what happens to the other characters to know how it all works out because the show gives us enough to figure it out for ourselves.
I mean, I am allowed to point out problems and still see the good points, yes?
Sure. Just like I'm allowed to disagree, yes?
Yeah, sorry. I'm just not buying it.
*shrug*
Sure. Just like I'm allowed to disagree, yes?
Oh, definitely. I just don't having it implied that I don't 'get it' because I disagree.
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