Eva and the moe trend.

[Hatsumi92]

Split from here.

Clearly they do; moeshit and shiny robots. Isn't life depressing?

There certainly is shiny robots in Evangelion but I do not recall any "moé" in the original Evangelion.

(or what is considered moé)

[Chrad]

OH SHI-

Well, I guess my personal theories about motivations behind Rebuild were given a boost now!

Do tell.

[chaosakita]

There certainly is shiny robots in Evangelion but I do not recall any "moé" in the original Evangelion.

(or what is considered moé)

I think Evangelion predated the current moe phenomenon

And did you memorize the ALT+ combination for accent marks?

[Azathoth]

There certainly is shiny robots in Evangelion but I do not recall any "moé" in the original Evangelion.

(or what is considered moé)

In NGE Hikari "does anyone remember to draw me without flushed cheeks" Horaki is probably the chief purveyor of what we'd consider moé, with Rei and occasionally Asuka having their moments - and if Shinji were a woman, he'd be moé as fuck in before >implying he isn't already moé as fuck. The character trait didn't really exist then the way it does now - but I suppose I'm abusing the term "moeshit" to mean obnoxious/exaggerated feminine cuteness in general.

Certainly NGE falls back on it as a substitute for decent characterization far less than Rebuild does, given that NGE predates the age of AM I KAWAII UGUU~.

[Xard]

Do tell.

a) Strong, straightforward central narrative without experimentalism of original
b) importance of character studies versus storyline is reduced
c) and so character go from kyara characters into traditional, pre-NGE kyarakutaa characters in terms of how they're embedded into narrative.

In NGE Hikari "does anyone remember to draw me without flushed cheeks" Horaki is probably the chief purveyor of what we'd consider moé, with Rei and occasionally Asuka having their moments - and if Shinji were a woman, he'd be moé as fuck in before >implying he isn't already moé as fuck. The character trait didn't really exist then the way it does now - but I suppose I'm abusing the term "moeshit" to mean obnoxious/exaggerated feminine cuteness in general.

Certainly NGE falls back on it as a substitute for decent characterization far less than Rebuild does, given that NGE predates the age of AM I KAWAII UGUU~.

you really have no idea what you're talking about. NGE is moe show.

Deal with it.

[SaltyJoe]

you really have no idea what you're talking about. NGE is moe show.

Well, if the definition of a moe show consists of inconsequential plot, a character driven narrative, preferrably with lots of cute females in various stages of misery, then yeah, NGE is moe as hell.

So, having a plot that is at least somewhat relevant would make NME less moe than NGE?

and so character go from kyara characters into traditional, pre-NGE kyarakutaa characters in terms of how they're embedded into narrative.

I Googled the terms and even did a romaji to katakana conversion to get some translated meaning, but enlighten me, what does that mean?

[esselfortium]

Well, if the definition of a moe show consists of inconsequential plot, a character driven narrative, preferrably with lots of cute females in various stages of misery, then yeah, NGE is moe as hell.

So, having a plot that is at least somewhat relevant would make NME less moe than NGE?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. How is the plot more or less relevant in either of them? (And what are we even using to define what counts as the "plot" here? There's a lot of things that could potentially be called the plot in NGE depending on your viewpoint, and so it leaves a lot of room for interpretation of your statements here.)

[Xard]

Well, if the definition of a moe show consists of inconsequential plot, a character driven narrative, preferrably with lots of cute females in various stages of misery, then yeah, NGE is moe as hell.

So, having a plot that is at least somewhat relevant would make NME less moe than NGE?

Yet another EGFer who does not understand the term moe. Great.

I Googled the terms and even did a romaji to katakana conversion to get some translated meaning, but enlighten me, what does that mean?

Manga scholar Itou Gou argues that since the end of the 1980s characters in anime, manga and videogames became so appealing that fans desired them even without stories (Itou 2005). Ito dubs such character types 'kyara,' distinct from characters (kyarakutaa) embedded in narratives. The reality of characters is their life-like nature, but kyara are defined by a 'reality of kyara' (fiction) distinct from reading human characteristics and following social understandings (Itou 2005: 118). ----- Thus the focus shifts from what Ootsuka calls holistic 'narrative consumption' (monogatari shouhi) to make meaning to what Azuma calls fragmentary 'database consumption' (deetabeesu shouhi) to make moe, or produce affect. Shifting the focus to kyara, or placing a character in narrative stasis, reduces concerns of consequence related to reality (the narrative) and creates a sensual, liminal experience. The further away from reality and limitations on form the greater the virtual potential and affect. This affect-logic is at the heart of moe. Moe is a response to kyara, or characters without context or depth, and is made possible by flattening characters to surfaces upon which to project desires.

The threshold in the development of moe came with the breakdown of narratives and social frames and the rise of pleasure experience in the recessionary 1990s. Identity could no longer be sustained in eroding nakama groups at home, school and work (Yoda and Harootunian 2006), and youth began an accelerated process of building world and self through consumption and hobby activities (Azuma 2009). The origin myth of moe centers on the early 1990s in archetypes such as Sagisawa Moe (Kyouryuu Wakusei, 1993-1994) and Takatsu Moe (Taiyou ni Sumasshu!, 1993), the former a series for kids and the latter for girls (Morikawa 2008). The word became widespread as an abbreviation of Hotaru Tomoe from Sailor Moon S (1994-1995). All of these characters are young girls, and display a set of moe characteristics: large, pupil-less eyes, glossy skin, small (or no) breasts and an innocent or pure personality. Azuma posits that a turning point came with Neon Genesis Evangelion (1995-1996), an immensely popular TV anime produced by studio Gainax. Evangelion features a female character named Ayanami Rei, a synthesis of different character types: a clone of the protagonist's mother housing the soul of an otherworldly being in the body of an adolescent girl. The doll-like and semi-human Ayanami became the single most popular and influential character in the history of otaku anime; fans still isolate parts of the character to amplify and rearticulate in fan-produced works to inspire moe. After the success of Ayanami, the focus shifted to kyara with moe traits in lieu of story.[xvii]

and

Simply put, Evangelion in 1995 spearheaded the coming of the Total Post Modern Age, where plots and coherencies started giving way to meaninglessness, with a huge shift towards characters. Consumers no longer look for constructed meaning in the media they consume, instead seeking an immediate satisfaction and desire fulfillment through characters. Gurren Lagann and Haruhi are essentially the same thing, they both are aimed at the consumer’s needs, rather than conveying a message. For GL, it’s the need for action and manliness, while Haruhi is just girls. In other words, the two series are merely following the path which Evangelion set 12 years ago. Eva was a gateway to a new age. GL and Haruhi are just walking through that gate.

To understand this fully, we have to look at what is the modern age and what comes after that. From 1970s to 1995, this was an age of transition for anime, where stories like Yamato and Mobile Suit Gundam ruled. Anime was not character-driven, by still had semblances of a grand narrative. The writing of this time period differs a fair bit from what we get now.

As Alexander Kojève’s favourite "End of History" suggests, "When humans cease to be humans, and no meaning is left in the world, leaving only the snobs, who know there is no meaning but pretend there is; and the animal, who wants only simple and immediate desires, without seeking meaning." Interestingly, the Russian was inspired into these two classes of people by Japan and Americans respectively. Japan’s Seppuku and American burgers I would expect.

How this can be applied to otaku culture is as follows: Audiences are becoming more animalistic, and with content creators following suit (or perhaps it’s the latter leading the former), the otaku culture is in a stage of total post- modernism. More and more shows, manga, and other products are made via databases, constructed of elements which individually emotionally excite (nekomimi, zettai ryouiki, upskirts, maid, harem, tsundere, mecha). Audiences no longer seek a meaning in the shows, but watch them to gain pleasures in the form of immediate emotional releases via these elements.

My personal theory is that RoE is partly Anno's attempt in turning eva into traditional, "grand narrative" story: a direct opposite to the original work for which the "plot" in the end was nothing more than window dressing for character exploration etc.

In other words it's fueled by bold and propably unfeasible idea of turning the wheel back in time: eva was ment to stir new creativity and original narratives in stagnant and cliche filled mid90s industry. Instead it ended up wrecking apart value of traditional narrative and directly led to what we have today. Of course in the meanwhile it managed to spawn the entire genre of sekai-kei/sekai-kei writing method:

The apocalyptic theme, ‘The End of the World’, is often seen in Japanese films, animations, novels, and manga comics. Our potential fear and phobia about the end of the world caused by possible wars and natural disasters seem to stem from the traumatic sense of ‘loss’ after WWII, and increasingly after the rapid economic growth in the 1960s and 70s. In TV animations and animation films, in particular, many male protagonists fight against the enemies, which destroy ‘the world’, as to protect innocent people or their love. To overcome or control the apocalyptic situation represents the triumph over our fear and phobia as well as the reconstruction of our identity. In addition, the characterizations in the apocalyptic situation could serve to enhance or reproduce ‘masculinity’ and ‘femininity’. However, after the big hit TV animation series, Neon Genesis Evangelion (1995-96, films (1997), new films (2007, 2008 (planned)), the apocalyptic theme can be no longer represented as a real issue to be dealt with or controlled on stage; therefore, it can be only used as a background which effectively represents the inner conflicts of the protagonists. The so-called ‘Sekai-kei’ (‘World Type) or ‘“the End of the World” narrative’ emphasizes the relationships between “you” and “me” in the exclusively closed inner world of the protagonists. The characters’ detachment from ‘the world’ is often metaphorically depicted in the unrequited relationship of the protagonist with his/her committed partner. Hence, the end of the world itself cannot convey any meaning in Sekai-kei animations since the late 1990s. A reflexive narrative is often conducted in such Sekai-kei works, in which fighting monstrous girls are masculinized, and cooped-up boys in cul-de-sac are feminised.

(Incidentally sekai-kei that so defines a lot of modern anime writing (and is one of clearest instances of eva's influence) has been infuriating Dai Sato lately)

All we've seen so far in 1.0 and 2.0 in particular points to this direction: even RoE's usage of fanservice fits the "old school" way better in how it's incorporated to narrative via eg. Asuka's slutsuit

Of course I might be entirely wrong: 3.0 will be the defining point in whether NGE is going to go crazy again or not.

[Seele00TextOnly]

...

[Xard]

Very interesting stuff Xard. I'm still not keen on this whole 'moe' thing as it is used in this forum; it seems the definition is ever expanding to fit the needs of the promoter. It's like watching academics desperately claw and scrape to manufacture thesis and original thoughts to impress the small pool of people around them who are doing the same. In short: thinly veiled masturbatory bullshit. But that sounds mean.

Quite frankly the only people who know what the word means either shut up about it or use it rather positively. Hating moe is irrational, to say the least

[Azathoth]

Quite frankly the only people who know what the word means either shut up about it or use it rather positively. Hating moe is irrational, to say the least

It's a poorly defined term to begin with, an otaku-originated fetish term for which there were contradicting definitions even before academics started jizzing all over it. So now instead of neckbeards arguing over what moe is in their own meaningless jargon we have tenured neckbeards arguing over what it is in their own meaningless jargon. Are you honestly surprised that nobody seems to use it the same way you do?

[Xard]

It's a poorly defined term to begin with, an otaku-originated fetish term for which there were contradicting definitions even before academics started jizzing all over it. So now instead of neckbeards arguing over what moe is in their own meaningless jargon we have tenured neckbeards arguing over what it is in their own meaningless jargon. Are you honestly surprised that nobody seems to use it the same way you do?

uh-huh

By the way, moe isn't exclusively "fetish term". And I'm not using it in any sort of unique way, I'm using the word in its original meaning. In this age of "hurrrdurrr moeshit" and "cute girls doing cute things XDDD" that's relatively rare.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Regarding the current moe trend: As I understand it (I could search for the sauce eventually), anime studios are more or less forced into doing the latest "in" thing (in this case moe) otherwise they lose funding. So even if they have some innovative idea in mind, execution is another thing.

[Sachi]

Eva is so moe. It's just that the characters are greatly expanded upon to the point that some people would disagree as being moe.

Rei is so moe.

[Merridian]

It's a poorly defined term to begin with, an otaku-originated fetish term for which there were contradicting definitions even before academics started jizzing all over it.

It's just a terribly misused word, sort of like "pretentious". Continual misuse just compounded the confusion regarding the word until it has come to mean "cute girls doing cute things" instead of referring to a very specific emotional response in the viewer. The viewer experiences moe as a result of watching a character/show/external stimuli XXX, as a result, the viewer says "XXX is so moe". But that is a subjective response. Manufacturers—er, I mean, writers & directors—of TV shows found that certain character traits would evoke more of that kind of response from wider audiences, so they poured their talents into writing from that kind of "moe toolbox" or otaku database, as Xard's quoted articles refer to. They didn't do this to change the industry or make an intentional and profound impact on narrative development, they did this because it made them shitloads of cash... at least, in theory it would (it worked for one studio!).

Once that happened, the database that the writers drew from in order to exploit this elation suddenly got labeled as being 'moe', when in fact these things were merely tools used to elicit moe. The confusion resulted because a lot of people misunderstood the term and started spouting the term incessantly despite the fact that the feeling 'moe' refers to has been around since, well, forever. Which is why a "moe show" is a nonsensical and useless term; at this point, it can apply to a slice of life show or to a show with a traditional narrative, it can involve characters designed to evoke moe as well as characters that don't fit that bill but do things that could be considered moe-ish every once in awhile, etc.

Ultimately, it's just capitalism making its typical rounds. The consumer wanted a product full of characters exhibiting certain traits because it made them feel good, and in return the suppliers gave it to them--despite the fact that the model isn't sustainable and leads only to a decrease creative output. It's the same thing that's happened anywhere else in any other entertainment industry, the only difference being that instead of calling these shows "cliche-ridden trash" we call them "moe shows" because... I'm not sure, probably because the term "moe show" evokes images of K-On, when in fact the term can be applied to any show the viewer just doesn't like. The ambiguity that has arisen from its misuse has transformed it into a word so inflated that it obscures meaning, but it also obscures any argument that can be leveled for or against the work in question. It’s an efficient but false way of dodging criticism, and its hip-ness doens't help matters.

Sad thing is I don't even take this very seriously. "Moe" is just a terrible word.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Shinji is so moe.

Fixed.

But seriously speaking, I guess maybe characters like Rei helped increase the trend from 90s into 00s. If the new movies are deconstructing moe, we'll see.

EDIT:

Whoa, way to go Merridian. Excellent post!

[The Abhorrent]

I think Evangelion predated the current moe phenomenon

Many sources cite one particular character in NGE as the one who set off the whole "moe trend", and that character would be Rei Ayanami.

As the TV Tropes article for Moe says:

One of the ur-prototypes for the modern type is widely agreed to be Neon Genesis Evangelion's Rei Ayanami; exotically beautiful, physically and emotionally vulnerable (even if it isn't obvious at first), in utterly pitiable circumstances once you discover what that is, coolly logical where others are uncertain... and, well, occasionally shown bandaged up. An absolutely staggering amount of what constitutes the modern trope has its origins in Rei, which is particularly hilarious when you consider that the creator was trying to make Rei disturbing. Talk about swing and a miss.

I would say the chief mistake was her first appearance (barring the first of the "ethereal Reis", which was probably going for the intended effect but was too brief to work), rolling her in on a hospital bed all bandaged up and clearly in pain? Yeah, big mistake if you want to give off the creepy vibe. That and the art style doesn't lend itself very well to any sort of "unnatural perfection". In any event, Rei being perceived as "moe" (let alone starting the whole trend) was completely unintentional and very much the opposite of what Anno was trying to do with the character. I doubt he's complaining about profits from the very misapplied merchandising however.

[Azathoth]

I would say the chief mistake was her first appearance (barring the first of the "ethereal Reis", which was probably going for the intended effect but was too brief to work), rolling her in on a hospital bed all bandaged up and clearly in pain? Yeah, big mistake if you want to give off the creepy vibe. That and the art style doesn't lend itself very well to any sort of "unnatural perfection". In any event, Rei being perceived as "moe" (let alone starting the whole trend) was completely unintentional and very much the opposite of what Anno was trying to do with the character. I doubt he's complaining about profits from the very misapplied merchandising however.

Oh, come on. Rei isn't Pyramid Head, she's not supposed to innately creep you out every time you see her. The facet of Rei that's intended to disturb is the revelation that she represents the mother, the painless thing that Shinji-as-symbolic-of-otaku can run to whenever he can't deal with it the world - there's a reason why she's the only character on the show with an overtly non-natural hair color for most of its duration (Misato doesn't count, purple is black) - she's an unnatural, contrived, anime-esque person, given a level of development such that she's a grotesque parody of the silent, cold-blooded badass characters that pervade anime, in the wake of Rei more than ever. Anno apparently hoped that otaku would see that and realize that Rei is symbolic of anime girls in general as a distortion of what people are actually like, realize that they were Shinji, and freak out. It wasn't by any means Anno's intent to make Rei unpleasantly creepy from the very beginning; as the show slides into chaos you can trace its progress by the increasingly fucked-up way in which Rei's form occurs, starting from the distorted Unit 00 Rei that mindfucks Shinji in 14 and going on and on to the hideously mutilated Mass Production Reivas in 26'.

Unfortunately there's no stronger testament to the failure of the character of Rei, and of Evangelion's message in general, than the fact that there's still an Evangelion franchise. If you can buy a Rei dakimakura - and you'll be able to until the day Japan sinks into the sea - someone along the line missed the point hard.

[Allemann]

Unfortunately there's no stronger testament to the failure of the character of Rei, and of Evangelion's message in general, than the fact that there's still an Evangelion franchise. If you can buy a Rei dakimakura - and you'll be able to until the day Japan sinks into the sea - someone along the line missed the point hard.

You know how they say, "If you can't beat them, join them." And so Anno made Rebuild...

[Xard]

Unfortunately there's no stronger testament to the failure of the character of Rei, and of Evangelion's message in general, than the fact that there's still an Evangelion franchise. If you can buy a Rei dakimakura - and you'll be able to until the day Japan sinks into the sea - someone along the line missed the point hard.

This forum and every single member participating in discussion here is the ultimate proof for eva's failure

"Franchise" in itself doesn't imply this unless you're an idiot.