I'm sure you've all heard about the "time loop" theory. I always thought it was nonsense, BUT that started to change when I noticed a reference to Kaworu and Shinji meeting in the original series that doesn't occur in the Rebuilds. Combined with all of the empty coffins on the moon, I'm led to believe that this Kaworu is the same Kaworu that we saw in the original, and he's "reborn" into a different universe every time he dies.
However, this doesn't really show that the Rebuild is a direct sequel to NGE/EOE and that the universe as a whole "loops." Other than Kaworu, pretty much all of the characters are different/alternate versions of the originals. Asuka doesn't even have the same surname and has a totally different backstory. Same for Yui. The differences that people like to connect in a literal way to the original (like the entire sea being red in Rebuilds) is simply a result of the Rebuild universe's second impact, rather than a sign that the third impact from EoE happened in the Rebuild universe.
Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
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- Asunji_Yuko
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- BernardoCairo
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Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
I think it's on the viewer to decide rather Kaworu is or isn't the same as in the original series. There's enough evidence in the last movie to maybe support that. But then again, the last third of Shin relies a lot on meta imagery. Some, like me, prefer to see it as a way for the movie to end not only the NTE tetralogy but Evangelion as a whole. Not literally, more like figuratively, if that makes any sense.
Of course, they meet in the same place OG Shinji and Kaworu met in episode 24. But this also happens with Asuka, who, as you noticed yourself, is not the same person in the two continuities. Also, OG Rei II appears in some of Gendo's flashback memories and a montage is literally taken from EOE and is reused as a background element for when Shinji and Rei are talking inside Unit 01. Does this mean all of these characters are the same then? I don't think so. By the end of that movie Shinji and Gendo are so beyond the movie itself. We even see what appears to be Khara's real life studio. It's almost as if they are transcending fiction in a way. They're in a place where everything is possible. Maybe what we see is not always what they see or maybe they can see some of what we know. Shinji himself says something like "I can see everything now" to Kaworu when they meet in the beach.
Regardless, what settles the matter for me personally is that Kaworu, like Asuka, acts completely differently in the NTE movies. There's a loop happening and it's from Kaworu's perspective. He's jumping from universe to universe. And one of these could've been the original NGE universe. Or maybe not. Maybe he "visited" a universe somewhat like the one from NGE. Or maybe he visited several like that. We don't know. All I know is that, by NTE, he's a different character almost all together...
Of course, they meet in the same place OG Shinji and Kaworu met in episode 24. But this also happens with Asuka, who, as you noticed yourself, is not the same person in the two continuities. Also, OG Rei II appears in some of Gendo's flashback memories and a montage is literally taken from EOE and is reused as a background element for when Shinji and Rei are talking inside Unit 01. Does this mean all of these characters are the same then? I don't think so. By the end of that movie Shinji and Gendo are so beyond the movie itself. We even see what appears to be Khara's real life studio. It's almost as if they are transcending fiction in a way. They're in a place where everything is possible. Maybe what we see is not always what they see or maybe they can see some of what we know. Shinji himself says something like "I can see everything now" to Kaworu when they meet in the beach.
Regardless, what settles the matter for me personally is that Kaworu, like Asuka, acts completely differently in the NTE movies. There's a loop happening and it's from Kaworu's perspective. He's jumping from universe to universe. And one of these could've been the original NGE universe. Or maybe not. Maybe he "visited" a universe somewhat like the one from NGE. Or maybe he visited several like that. We don't know. All I know is that, by NTE, he's a different character almost all together...
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Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
BernardoCairo wrote:It's almost as if they are transcending fiction in a way. They're in a place where everything is possible.
There's a loop happening and it's from Kaworu's perspective. He's jumping from universe to universe. And one of these could've been the original NGE universe. Or maybe not. Maybe he "visited" a universe somewhat like the one from NGE. Or maybe he visited several like that. We don't know. All I know is that, by NTE, he's a different character almost all together...
I want to highlight these two bits in particular, that's a very core part of the movie that is often overlooked, and really cannot be stressed enough when discussing its metaphysics and matters of timeline
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
- FelipeFritschF
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Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
I've perused a lot of interpretations over time, in fact I had a summary written down somewhere, which I never used, let me look for it...
To be quite fair I haven't given this a lot of thought since then because, frankly, multiverses bore the heck out of me.
Me in 2021 wrote:...and it seems the dominating one by now in the East Asian fandoms is basically that the loops are a natural feature of the Rebuild continuity. They are outside Shinji's control and Kaworu writes Shinji's name himself in order to meet him. Taking some interviews, particularly Miyamura's stream into account, Gendo's statements on the nature of the cycles and Instrumentality which are completely different from those in NGE/EoE, as well as the explicit meta framing in the Instrumentality sequence with Shinji and Rei (reminiscent of a studio, compare that to EoTV's theater).
Miyamura is adamant that there is no Asuka Langley Sohryu anywhere in the Rebuild continuity and how she was told to play a different character than her, so even this universe's version of Asuka in NGE/EoE had Shikinami, not Sohryu. The Asuka at the beach scene is still Shikinami, simply fused with the original Shikinami clone. Shikinami's changed backstory as a clone with no parents, something she longs for, explicitly contradicts Sohryu's trauma with her mother in the series. This isn't dissimilar to Asuka in Sadamoto's manga.
Let us remember however that Sadamoto is very adamant that the manga was his own thing, explicitly separate from NGE and NTE (his own words), and we also know he had no writing involvement in NTE and distanced progressively by the time of 3.0. Of course, Anno is aware of the manga and there is some influence there. Yet NTE was also influenced by ANIMA, and unlike Sadamoto, Yamashita is still actively involved with Khara and a significant voice in production. However, nobody insinuates that ANIMA and NTE are part of the same continuity or that it's a loop that happened to get behind somehow - like the sensationalists that want Eva to have 50 multiverses because of what happened in some 22 year old pachinko game yet at the same time some other visual novel is irrelevant (they both are!).
There are other conflicting background and setting details, like the Four Adams or Mari's very existence - and her own inclusion in the manga. The loops happen by way of events repeating in different manners, but the diverging point is when Shinji arrives in Tokyo-3, so Shikinami's backstory, which precedes this, isn't affected, nor does it match Sohryu's. What one might take as evidence that the Rebuilds happen post-EoE are more like signs of an AU. As such, we can conclude that:
NGE/EoE have their own versions in the Rebuild continuity, and happened as previous loops, but the original NGE/EoE themselves are still their own continuity and are not retconned nor part of the Rebuild one. We can also safely assume that the loops happen sequentially, not in parallel.
To be quite fair I haven't given this a lot of thought since then because, frankly, multiverses bore the heck out of me.
Last edited by FelipeFritschF on Wed Feb 14, 2024 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Asunji_Yuko
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Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
I wonder when we'll get an Evangelion Panderverse
- Asunji_Yuko
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Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
In bold- the originals (their "own versions") are in the Rebuild continuity...and they aren't part of the Rebuild continuity.
I don't understand.
I don't think Mari should be read into that much. From what I've read, she was put into the Rebuilds by request of one of the producers rather than Anno himself, who wanted to focus on Asuka. Then apparently when Anno was writing her, she was handed over to multiple other writers and ultimately no one really figured out what to do with her. That is the main reason there is so much wild speculation about what her "true purpose" in the Rebuilds is.
Also, if Shinji's arrival in Tokyo-3 is the diverging point in the time loops, why would any differences (aka, divergence) happen prior? The primary example being Sohryu/Shikinami both of whose backstories started prior to this.
Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
If Kaworu was the same from NGE/EOE, that would make Rebuilds a sequel because it happened after the NGE/EOE events. That said, as many people have mentioned it's left to interpretation whether NGE/EOE is really part of the loop or not.
Now, it's implied Shinji is also trapped in the loop, but he isn't aware of this. So, Shinji is likely always the same in the loop too.
Last edited by Konja7 on Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
I don't understand.
It means that one of the cycles in Rebuild loop includes pretty similar events to NGE/EoE, but these aren't really NGE/EoE. So, NGE/EoE is still its own continuity
- DantesInferno
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Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
I don't think there's an "in universe loop", an overarching temporal continuity that encompasses both NTE and NGE (and possibly the manga).
Rather, NTE breaks the fourth wall (so to speak) and depicts a universe where Evangelion is a fiction created in a "real" universe, which is pretty much ours.
When Gendo incorporates the Key of Nebuchednezzar, he says he "annotated (書き加えた) into himself information(情報) that transcends(超えた) the laws of this plane (この世の理)". I see this as him gaining awareness that he is in a fictional universe created by Anno and Khara. An awareness that I believe Kaworu has had since 1.0 (but not in NGE, because that would require retconning: this idea just din't exist when Gainax created NGE).
(it does raise the question of how Gendo thinks he can achieve anything, since as a wrtitten character he doesn't have free will...)
This is consistent with the "filming studio props" seen during the battle between Eva-01 and Eva-13 and later before Neon Genesis, and possibly the last scene at the station represents Shinji and Mari breaking away into our world (I think this is a bit sad and also breaks Mari's promise to bring Shinji back no matter what).
There's a theory that the Eva Imaginary (which "bridges reality and fantasy", given that it can only be perceived by beings who give similar value to both) represents Anno/Studio Khara, and because they are the creators of Shinji
's world, they manifest in the form of Lilith (who is said to have created all life on Earth, i.e. a "Creator God" in a sense). And that the spears represent the pens/pencils with which the artists at Khara draw the characters and write the script, hence all the constant references to them being able to "rewrite the world".
So there's no "loop"; NTE does not "come after" NGE (at least not within the characters' "reality"). It's just that NTE "looks back at the audience" and tells it "I know I'm a work of fiction, and that there were these other iterations of me before" (TV and manga).
Rather, NTE breaks the fourth wall (so to speak) and depicts a universe where Evangelion is a fiction created in a "real" universe, which is pretty much ours.
When Gendo incorporates the Key of Nebuchednezzar, he says he "annotated (書き加えた) into himself information(情報) that transcends(超えた) the laws of this plane (この世の理)". I see this as him gaining awareness that he is in a fictional universe created by Anno and Khara. An awareness that I believe Kaworu has had since 1.0 (but not in NGE, because that would require retconning: this idea just din't exist when Gainax created NGE).
(it does raise the question of how Gendo thinks he can achieve anything, since as a wrtitten character he doesn't have free will...)
This is consistent with the "filming studio props" seen during the battle between Eva-01 and Eva-13 and later before Neon Genesis, and possibly the last scene at the station represents Shinji and Mari breaking away into our world (I think this is a bit sad and also breaks Mari's promise to bring Shinji back no matter what).
There's a theory that the Eva Imaginary (which "bridges reality and fantasy", given that it can only be perceived by beings who give similar value to both) represents Anno/Studio Khara, and because they are the creators of Shinji
's world, they manifest in the form of Lilith (who is said to have created all life on Earth, i.e. a "Creator God" in a sense). And that the spears represent the pens/pencils with which the artists at Khara draw the characters and write the script, hence all the constant references to them being able to "rewrite the world".
So there's no "loop"; NTE does not "come after" NGE (at least not within the characters' "reality"). It's just that NTE "looks back at the audience" and tells it "I know I'm a work of fiction, and that there were these other iterations of me before" (TV and manga).
Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
I've tended toward the above metafictional reading as time has gone on but what I'm not settled on is exactly what's happening metaphysically (and allegorically) with the last train station scene. Because parts of the real city image is supplemented and attenuated with CGI, and Shinji and Mari retain their 2D form ...
I think part of the metafiction is emphasizing that we live in fiction in reality, too; it's not just a premise granted by the in-universe setting and anti-universe; it's the nature of our minds that we create fiction and live in it as if it were a reality. We don't fundamentally do much different from the universal re-order of Gendo (or Shinji). Or like a gita says: "We are like the spider who weaves its web and then lives in the web."
What can be achieved only through fiction is the premise of being able to dismantle this fiction in a fell swoop on a universal scale. And yet the method it shows isn't too far off from things achievable in reality; atonement, recognition of one's mistakes, re-orienting one's relationship to others, etc.
I think a somewhat overlooked (and I guess controversial) aspect of the metafiction is the idea that it's a method to break away from the production situation. In other words, Anno et al had written themselves into a corner and could only break out of it via metafiction.
I'm not saying that makes it arbitrary, or it was a crutch, or anything. There was precedent all along with how the original narrative dissolves. But what I mean is that the emotional register of a lot of the back half of Shin has this cathartic feeling to me; and I feel like a lot of painting Gendo as a writer and Wille as rebelling rewriters has this kind of vibe: "all this stuff that I came up with that weighs on me (ie, 3.0 and Anno's subsequent depression) is all just narrative conceits; I can break them like a bundle of spaghetti if I wanted."
It's a representation of the idea of being able to view your entrapments as illusory and thus easier to step away from than it once seemed.
I think part of the metafiction is emphasizing that we live in fiction in reality, too; it's not just a premise granted by the in-universe setting and anti-universe; it's the nature of our minds that we create fiction and live in it as if it were a reality. We don't fundamentally do much different from the universal re-order of Gendo (or Shinji). Or like a gita says: "We are like the spider who weaves its web and then lives in the web."
What can be achieved only through fiction is the premise of being able to dismantle this fiction in a fell swoop on a universal scale. And yet the method it shows isn't too far off from things achievable in reality; atonement, recognition of one's mistakes, re-orienting one's relationship to others, etc.
I think a somewhat overlooked (and I guess controversial) aspect of the metafiction is the idea that it's a method to break away from the production situation. In other words, Anno et al had written themselves into a corner and could only break out of it via metafiction.
I'm not saying that makes it arbitrary, or it was a crutch, or anything. There was precedent all along with how the original narrative dissolves. But what I mean is that the emotional register of a lot of the back half of Shin has this cathartic feeling to me; and I feel like a lot of painting Gendo as a writer and Wille as rebelling rewriters has this kind of vibe: "all this stuff that I came up with that weighs on me (ie, 3.0 and Anno's subsequent depression) is all just narrative conceits; I can break them like a bundle of spaghetti if I wanted."
It's a representation of the idea of being able to view your entrapments as illusory and thus easier to step away from than it once seemed.
Après moi le déluge!
Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
When Gendo incorporates the Key of Nebuchednezzar, he says he "annotated (書き加えた) into himself information(情報) that transcends(超えた) the laws of this plane (この世の理)". I see this as him gaining awareness that he is in a fictional universe created by Anno and Khara. An awareness that I believe Kaworu has had since 1.0 (but not in NGE, because that would require retconning: this idea just din't exist when Gainax created NGE).
(it does raise the question of how Gendo thinks he can achieve anything, since as a wrtitten character he doesn't have free will...)
This is consistent with the "filming studio props" seen during the battle between Eva-01 and Eva-13 and later before Neon Genesis, and possibly the last scene at the station represents Shinji and Mari breaking away into our world (I think this is a bit sad and also breaks Mari's promise to bring Shinji back no matter what).
I don't think the story really wants to imply that the characters are aware they are ficitional characters (as you said, Gendo doesn't seem to believe he lacks free will). I've always understood Gendo "trascending the laws of this plan" means he is aware about other timelines or even AU, that's why Gendo seems to know about Shinji rejecting EoE Instrumentality.
Now, I think there is definitely a loop. Kaworu mentioned he is forced to repeat the story in a eternal cycle (represented by the coffins in the Instrumentality). I don't think NGE/EoE are necessarily part of that loop, but that's left to every person interpretation.
Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
I think looking way too much into stuff that isn't there / giving Anno too much credit. It's exactly how the movies presented it: the Rebuilds are a loop of the TV series. You can interpret your own meaning behind it, but it's made very clear what happened.
- Blockio
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Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
One would hope that such a shallow, dismissive take would have been left behind by now on a space specifically about analyzing Eva, but alas.
If all that theorycrafting is mere personal conjecture and reading too much into things, how does one like you explain the fact that the people who put the most effort into looking into the deeper meaning behind the elements were the ones able to accurately predict reveals in Shin long before we even had a trailer for it, when noone else came anywhere close?
I will specifically highlight Reichu here, who not only had a great number of her predictions hold true - probably most spectacularily the one that the 9th Angel was engineered out of Asuka somehow based on the same subtle elements of narrative that your claim paints as not mattering compared to "what is right there", but after we actually had the trailer, got things nailed down as tightly as predicting the fact that Asuka's and Mari's drop operation would notably include callbacks to Gunbuster.
Equally BlueBasilisk, whose prediction of the three other Guardian of Guf-class ships not even I believed when he first made it many years ago, but who proved unequivocally correct.
I forget the name of the person, but someone also had Mari/Maria Iscarot figured out in effectively everything but the name used, which if you dig up that thread, you will find an old comment of me confidently declaring them to have the right idea, but being chasing after shadows.
Does that satisfy the burden of counterproof, or do you still insist that it's all just surface level?
If all that theorycrafting is mere personal conjecture and reading too much into things, how does one like you explain the fact that the people who put the most effort into looking into the deeper meaning behind the elements were the ones able to accurately predict reveals in Shin long before we even had a trailer for it, when noone else came anywhere close?
I will specifically highlight Reichu here, who not only had a great number of her predictions hold true - probably most spectacularily the one that the 9th Angel was engineered out of Asuka somehow based on the same subtle elements of narrative that your claim paints as not mattering compared to "what is right there", but after we actually had the trailer, got things nailed down as tightly as predicting the fact that Asuka's and Mari's drop operation would notably include callbacks to Gunbuster.
Equally BlueBasilisk, whose prediction of the three other Guardian of Guf-class ships not even I believed when he first made it many years ago, but who proved unequivocally correct.
I forget the name of the person, but someone also had Mari/Maria Iscarot figured out in effectively everything but the name used, which if you dig up that thread, you will find an old comment of me confidently declaring them to have the right idea, but being chasing after shadows.
Does that satisfy the burden of counterproof, or do you still insist that it's all just surface level?
I can see why Gendo hired Misato to do the actual commanding. He tried it once and did an appalling job. ~ AWinters
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Your point of view is horny, and biased. ~ glitz2hard
What about titty-ten? ~ Reichu
The movies function on their own terms. If people can't accept them on those terms, and keep expecting them to be NGE, then they probably should have realized a while ago that they weren't going to have a good time. ~ Words of wisdom courtesy of Reichu
Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
Honestly, that "shallow" take is still a valid opinion. So, there isn't reason why one person couldn't share it.
I will specifically highlight Reichu here, who not only had a great number of her predictions hold true - probably most spectacularily the one that the 9th Angel was engineered out of Asuka somehow based on the same subtle elements of narrative that your claim paints as not mattering compared to "what is right there", but after we actually had the trailer, got things nailed down as tightly as predicting the fact that Asuka's and Mari's drop operation would notably include callbacks to Gunbuster.
Equally BlueBasilisk, whose prediction of the three other Guardian of Guf-class ships not even I believed when he first made it many years ago, but who proved unequivocally correct.
I forget the name of the person, but someone also had Mari/Maria Iscarot figured out in effectively everything but the name used, which if you dig up that thread, you will find an old comment of me confidently declaring them to have the right idea, but being chasing after shadows.
To be fair, they were also wrong about a good amount of things. Analizing the story could make you predict some things, but it isn't weird to make wrong predictions due to "thinkig too much".
Also, we still don't have confirmation that the 9th Angel was engineered out of Asuka. The only thing confirmed in 3.0+1.0 is that Asuka and 9th Angel are fused, which isn't so difficult to predict from 2.0 and 3.0.
Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
The one thing I don’t get is why make Asuka a clone in the NTE universe instead of being her own person? Everyone else is the same character, but why not her? Why ditch the old Asuka in favor of the new one who’s not even the real her?
I get Anno wants a fresh start on the series to begin anew and move on, but why not keep some of the old stuff and improve on them instead of making such drastic changes?
I get Anno wants a fresh start on the series to begin anew and move on, but why not keep some of the old stuff and improve on them instead of making such drastic changes?
“This is the way”-The Mandalorian
Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
I get Anno wants a fresh start on the series to begin anew and move on, but why not keep some of the old stuff and improve on them instead of making such drastic changes?
I've seen a lot of people say it's a meta-commentary on her flanderization in fan spaces and in merch spin-offs and what have you ... but I don't see that as a problem exclusive to her specifically, so I find it an unsatisfying rationalization.
I think from a script-writing standpoint, it was probably to simplify things a bit. The narrative architecture of "clones and related trauma" has already been explored in NTE, so the calculation might have been that it would work as short-hand to sweep her into it and have that function as a short-cut backstory. Perhaps this was seen as a more elegant solution than introducing her mother or something more idiosyncratic.
Only other thing I can think of is without the implication the "-nami" suffix there isn't an established suggested pattern going on, meaning Mari has even less of a between-the-lines backstory. It's not just Asuka who is appended onto Rei's established origins and related trauma, there's the fact that the core female trio are implicitly connected.
Après moi le déluge!
Re: Kaworu is the same character as from the original series, but everyone else is different
If all that theorycrafting is mere personal conjecture and reading too much into things, how does one like you explain the fact that the people who put the most effort into looking into the deeper meaning behind the elements were the ones able to accurately predict reveals in Shin long before we even had a trailer for it, when noone else came anywhere close?
I will specifically highlight Reichu here, who not only had a great number of her predictions hold true - probably most spectacularily the one that the 9th Angel was engineered out of Asuka somehow based on the same subtle elements of narrative that your claim paints as not mattering compared to "what is right there", but after we actually had the trailer, got things nailed down as tightly as predicting the fact that Asuka's and Mari's drop operation would notably include callbacks to Gunbuster.
Equally BlueBasilisk, whose prediction of the three other Guardian of Guf-class ships not even I believed when he first made it many years ago, but who proved unequivocally correct.
I forget the name of the person, but someone also had Mari/Maria Iscarot figured out in effectively everything but the name used, which if you dig up that thread, you will find an old comment of me confidently declaring them to have the right idea, but being chasing after shadows.
I'm not sure what your argument is here. I'm not predicting something will happen. I'm talking about what already did happen.
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