For a long time, I've been getting extremely depressed when reading commentary on the rebuild films. I wasn't sure why at first, but gradually it came to me that reading fan commentary on why Shinji is hated has been deeply affecting me personally.

I'm not sure why, but I see myself in Shinji to an unhealthy degree. Whenever anyone criticizes Shinji, I see them as literally criticizing myself. I think I'm doing fine in life, I have a decent amount of friends and am keeping up with work and school, but I just see myself as being the same as Shinji. This goes from the more serious complaints about him to the minor ones. Whenever someone calls Shinji, worthless, beta, etc. I feel that they are saying that about me.

In EoE, it's perhaps not so true. I don't see myself as making it as far as Shinji did, to be honest. And if I had, I don't think I would have tripped at the finish line as hard as he did anyway.

But in the rebuilds, I honestly think I would have made the exact same choices that Shinji would have at the end of 2.0. I don't see Rei as a waifu or anything, but if there was a good friend (say Kensuke, even) who was trapped in that situation, and I could find a way to use the Eva to save them, I would. How was Shinji supposed to know that going into this new mode with the Eva would cause an impact? How is it that other people can screw up and get normal consequences (acting like a know it all jerk at a job interview=don't get the job) but any time Shinji screws up it's the greatest sin in existence. I just feel that 3.0 is Anno's way of bullying Shinji, and of making him parallel to the lowest rung of Japanese society. I feel like it's Anno's way of blaming Otaku, etc. for Japan's problems, and his personal ranting at them for being such pathetic selfish losers. The thing is, I haven't even seen that much anime. I don't consider myself to be an otaku, yet I think of myself as Shinji. To the degree where I feel that 3.0 is everyone yelling at me, criticizing me, telling me I'm worthless.

So, I feel like when people are hating Shinji, that they are hating myself. And I've become really obsessed with this over the past few months, to the point where it's been hurting me in my actual life. When I think of how people feel about Shinji, I sometimes become almost immobile, not feeling any will to go on. I've hard hard experiences in actual life, although it's probably been more sheltered than that of most people (a part of being a middle-class white American). Yet it still seems really stupid that a TV show would depress me more than my actual hardships in life. Evangelion has made me more depressed than anything because I feel that people I don't even know despise me. Is there any advice that you have for getting past this?

If you look around, you'll find you're not alone.

(You have a PM.)

So, I feel like when people are hating Shinji, that they are hating myself. And I've become really obsessed with this over the past few months, to the point where it's been hurting me in my actual life. When I think of how people feel about Shinji, I sometimes become almost immobile, not feeling any will to go on. I've hard hard experiences in actual life, although it's probably been more sheltered than that of most people (a part of being a middle-class white American). Yet it still seems really stupid that a TV show would depress me more than my actual hardships in life. Evangelion has made me more depressed than anything because I feel that people I don't even know despise me. Is there any advice that you have for getting past this?

I feel exactly the same. . . .

Trust me, you're not alone on this. If you need help, don't hesitate to ask.

But there is hope for Shinji, just as there was in the original series. :)

Thank you everybody! It's nice to know that I am (not) alone when it comes to this. Like I said, I'm probably taking this somewhat too seriously. As much as it's affected me, it's important to take a look back and realize that I am not Shinji and that Evangelion is a work of fiction.

I started watching the show during a really dark time and found myself identifying with Shinji a lot.

Shoujo Kakumei Asuka wrote:Thank you everybody! It's nice to know that I am (not) alone when it comes to this. Like I said, I'm probably taking this somewhat too seriously. As much as it's affected me, it's important to take a look back and realize that I am not Shinji and that Evangelion is a work of fiction.

That maybe true, but you showing such empathy and compassion for Shinji's plight, despite his transgressions shows that there is hope for all of us.

Which, I think, is a message that Anno is trying to help us realize.

Maybe this should go in the Eva Chit Chat/discussion section instead?

SKA: Considering the new films haven't been released in full, any guesses about Anno's intended message are just that -- guesses. People like to wield Eva like a sword against groups they look down upon, but, at least with NGE, Anno was attempting to speak to a group he knew all too well, essentially being a struggling otaku himself. If he were ever to lose compassion for his audience, what value would his message really have anymore? Pure criticism does little more than alienate.

How is it that other people can screw up and get normal consequences (acting like a know it all jerk at a job interview=don't get the job) but any time Shinji screws up it's the greatest sin in existence

Well, the obvious reason is that Shinji is not just any other person -- the story has placed him into extraordinary circumstances, and so the consequences of his mistakes are, accordingly, extraordinary. If you are responsible for a barely-contained WMD, it stands to reason that your actions could easily lead to disaster... especially if one of the people who put you in that position is basically counting on it. But said person is unreachable for punishment, whereas you are just the scapegoat that the masses ordered. It sucks, but it's not unrealistic.

If you find yourself in such a position, what are you going to do? Perhaps those who are seemingly scapegoating you for no reason have less black and white motives than you think. In 3.0, for instance, they did not intend to simply punish Shinji, but to protect him from the very forces that got him in this mess to begin with. It's because Shinji couldn't get over his persecution complex that he ran right back into Gendo's clutches, letting the same thing happen all over again! (Only worse, because this time he actually had some idea of what he was getting himself into, at least by the time he made his stupidest mistake.)

Certainly, Wille could have gone about things better, but if you're in Shinji's position you can't control anyone but yourself. While his actions are relatable, I'm hard-pressed to call them in any way prudent. He acted on nothing but "wah, they're being mean to me!" impulse, refusing to stop and consider new information -- shutting himself off and throwing himself at a totally unknown Eva unit just because Rei's voice was coming out of it. And the impulsivity didn't exactly stop there.

Relate to him, sure, but instead of over-investing your ego in Shinji's bad decisions, learn the things that he needs to learn. In real life, you will screw up, and it might not be completely your fault... but we don't live in a world where everyone has access to all the facts, nor one that is fair. Don't be in a hurry to deflect responsibility. Assuming you aren't on the executioner's block, you have time to think about what happened and why people are angry. It will be agony at first, but if you absorb all the relevant information instead of defensively rejecting it, you'll be in a better position to take action and make the situation better for not only yourself, but everybody else.

@Reichu

He acted on nothing but "wah, they're being mean to me!" impulse, refusing to stop and consider new information -- shutting himself off and throwing himself at a totally unknown Eva unit just because Rei's voice was coming out of it. And the impulsivity didn't exactly stop there.

I think you're giving Shinji too little credit, they're the ones who put a suicide collar on him and outright refused to tell him why they did.

What I really hate about the Rebuild verse is how everything conspires to make Shinji's life worse. Not just worse, but making it so things literally would have been better off if he had died.

I mean, with the series and the first two movies. Things were harsh, but Shinji being around made things marginally better, he fought the angels and allowed mankind to exist a little longer than it would have. But after 3.0. . .everything would have been better off if Misato had pulled the Trigger, no Shinji no Impact. and that's what really makes 3.0 destroy me personally. It makes it so things literally would be better off if Shinji was dead.

It makes me really angry because, as a younger person, I was suicidal. Everyone in my life bullied me and said I'd be better off dead. After a while I started to believe it. Fortunately, I had someone who brought me out of that and helped me realize that I can contribute and that I'm not worthless. I guess you could say he was my Kaworu. Minus the Subtle Homoerotica and betraying my trust.

But after 3.0? After causing not one but TWO impacts? Shinji's been put in a position where everything literally would be better off if he were dead. I hate Anno for doing that, I'm angry at him for doing that. I've literally gone off in private at an imagined Anno, yelling his ear off for making Shinji suffer in the way he did in that movie. Noone should ever be put in a position where they literally would have been better off hanging themselves instead of trying to fix things.


But why do I get so emotional over a fictional character? I mean he's not real right?

I get so emotional because Shinji represents me at that point in my life more than any other character in any other work of fiction I've come across. I care for him, because like him I was in pretty much the exactly same place. Minus the giant robots and evil dad. Being in a place where things would literally be better off if you were dead or had died, is the worst thing anyone can experience.

I'm sorry. I just had to put this here . . .

Ray wrote:I think you're giving Shinji too little credit, they're the ones who put a suicide collar on him and outright refused to tell him why they did.

Do we really want that thread again, Ray? My post was about 500% kinder to ENT Shinji than is typical for me, so please don't sweat the small stuff.

The problem the OP had involved over-identification, to his own detriment. This seems to be a problem you've been having, as well, for quite some time judging by these recurring rants. As I said, the movie series is unfinished. You're doing yourself no favors getting all wound up over the trials and tribulations of a fictional character before his full character arc is revealed and the creator's motives made more crystalline. It is a common narrative device to put characters through hell in order to build them up again. This is Anno's prerogative as a storyteller.

Since this is just a story, the world-killing consequences of Shinji's blunders are ultimately metaphorical, and we aren't aiming for pure realism. So, no, things would NOT be better if Shinji just died. He has an arc to finish. He might well want to die, after what happened in 3.0, but in spite of everything there are still people who care about him and obviously won't let him kick the bucket if they can help it.

I've managed to identify with Shinji's plight without overidentifying. It is possible. For me, the new movies speak to the complicated issues that surround: personal mistakes with unexpected collateral, interpersonal miscommunication, the need for responsibility, the desire for redemption, and so forth. The material is quite rich and complicated, reflecting the fact that real life is seldom straightforward.

If there is something deeper underlying your anger and frustration, Ray, remember there are people in Off-Topic ready to listen.

When Anno treated my identification character appallingly, I just resorted to fix-fics. It may have been easier because at that point it was years after everything had been released; and she never subsequently appeared in the Rebuilds -- but it might be worth a try.

Having scribbled a good deal of nonsense intended to settle the aspects of NGE that refused to digest properly, I can also vouch for the therapeutic power of writing. (The term "fix fic" always struck me as a bit presumptuous, though.)

Like the OP I also identify a lot with Shinji, but because he embodies a lot of things that I consider to be bad qualities about myself. Shinji is what I might be if I didn't make an effort to be different, and to act in ways that (I think) are more likely to make me a happy and contented person. This means that any Shinji hate I encounter just further encourages me to be a more proactive and less miserable person. The show itself gave me similar motivation.

I think that sometimes the problem I have is what I think Anno's trying to say to the fans. NGE had a message that it was always better to at least try to reach out to people than to keep yourself inside a closed world of fantasy. At the same time, NTE seems to be trying to say that it's a good idea to take others' feelings into consideration rather than to simply think about how you can make yourself happy. By itself, this is a very positive message.

However, I feel like it's given an overly harsh tone. At this point, the only real way out for Shinji is a heroic sacrifice (except I guess it's a good thing for Shinji to not feel heroic while doing it?). I don't think there is any chance for Shinji to find any sort of happiness, for the following reason. Imagine I'm generic self-insert character # 7530 in Evangelion, in the world after Third Impact. I never wanted Shinji to find instant love with Asuka/Rei/Kaworu/Whoever, but I didn't think that he deserved NOTHING either.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm more upset by is the fan reaction rather than the movies themselves. I actually thought that the ending of 2.0 was something slightly off kilter for Evangelion, but at the same time the punishment for anything Shinji did is off by several orders of magnitude. And this IS important, because with normal transgressions, the chance to redeem yourself is present.

Another issue is that it feels like this is really the worst possible way to go about it if you wanted to help shut-ins integrate to society. One factor is that the characters actually seem much more like "waifus" than before. Asuka has all of her problems removed entirely, and is turned in many ways into a generic action tsundere. And while some people disagree, from what I've seen it appears that 3.0 Asuka is the most popular one ever. People still make unlimited figurines of her, love pillows, etc., and now I'm not even sure if that's the main thing Anno's criticizing in NTE. There's so much fanservice, without any of the context of the original, that it seems hard to be saying that he's criticizing it. And yes, there is fanservice in 3.0 as well, and not just in the form of Kawoshin Yaoi, so it can't be said to have stopped after 2.0 as many would argue. Another issue on pandering is that in a way, showing Shinji in the wrong and everyone else right IS pandering. From what I've seen, most anime-viewers think that they aren't like Shinji at all. Many would prefer an Eva series without Shinji, and frankly this seems to be leading towards that.

There's a lot of talks about how Willie could have handled it better, and while I think they could have, the way they acted in 3.0 was fairly realistic. I don't have a major problem with the way Willie acted unlike many people, it's more of a problem with Anno himself really. I don't think this series, if 4.0 goes as I outline below, will help anyone. I think it will go quite some way towards convincing people that they are worthless, that they shouldn't try, that they'd be better off dead. In real life, time and time again, I've seen this. Giving people "tough love" and talking about how much they suck is NEVER a way to get anyone to change in real life. Neither is just enabling them and giving them what they want, but typically there's a happy medium between these two extremes. I just think that if Anno thinks that he's writing a story with a message that will ultimately help people, he's wrong. If 4.0 goes how I think it will, it will likely be the trigger for many suicides, especially in Japan.



At any rate, I'm probably not going to post about this any more, because this took way too long to type.

Also, Mr. Tines, you identify with Asuka from the original series, right?

Edit: Spoiler tagged a lot of the comment to remove spoilers for Rebuild 2.0/3.0[/spoiler]

You don't need to tag spoilers for anything Eva around here, just FYI. (Not until the next movie comes out, anyway.)

Shoujo Kakumei Asuka wrote:I just think that if Anno thinks that he's writing a story with a message that will ultimately help people, he's wrong.

That's rather dismissive, especially considering someone who's found these films helpful posted in this very thread.

If 4.0 goes how I think it will, it will likely be the trigger for many suicides, especially in Japan.

If people decide to kill themselves over Eva, survivors reserve the right to make Darwin's Law jokes.

I'm probably not going to post about this any more, because this took way too long to type.

That sounds like a good idea, albeit not for the reason provided.

I'm going to heartily recommend taking a big step away from the franchise and its characters. At this point, it doesn't matter what the fourth movie has in store. Until it comes out, the speculation is pointless, especially if you're having personal issues because of the way 3.0 left things off and therefore can't even speculate for frivolous amusement purposes. Forget about Eva and Shinji and any notion that Shinji is you (...he isn't), go find other things you enjoy, and don't sweat this crap. It totally isn't worth wasting your life on. If you find yourself unable to move on and that works of fiction continue to torture you, there are probably bigger problems requiring professional intervention.

This coming from someone who let her ego get too entangled in Eva, didn't like what it was doing to her, and made a concerted and deliberate effort to cut the cord. I still enjoy the series, but the amount of needless obsession has been greatly reduced.

[Just FYI, the organization is called Wille (Vill-eh), not to be mistaken with Steamboat Willie's name. Also, Shinji condemning humanity in EoE was considerably more passive and inadvertent than anything that happened in the new films. But, hey, fans have been clamoring for a less passive Shinji, so now they have one. Everything they ever dreamed, eh?]

Actually, yeah, someone killing themselves over a movie series would be really stupid. I do think people have done it over fiction before, though. Although much larger issues in life tend to make people depressed, the triggers are often ridiculously insignificant. But in this vein, I imagine someone's killed themselves over Evangelion before (but not really). So I'm sorry about saying that.

Also, the arguments as to how responsible Shinji is for Third Impact have been made time and time again, and I think people are just going to fundamentally disagree on it. The only Shinji I disliked was that in EoE, and in the end it's just an opinion about a work of fiction anyway. As Anno wants people to realize, it's just fiction, not reality-and we need to focus on reality anyway.

Shoujo Kakumei Asuka wrote:Also, the arguments as to how responsible Shinji is for Third Impact have been made time and time again, and I think people are just going to fundamentally disagree on it.

Well, if those arguments being made "time and time again" are about Shinji in the new movies, most of them are doomed to be irrelevant and uninformed landfill, for the obvious reason that the story isn't finished yet. We've had EoE around to analyze for quite some time, and I'll stand by what I said in my previous post. If anyone wants to argue about it, there's Discussion threads.

Although much larger issues in life tend to make people depressed, the triggers are often ridiculously insignificant.

I partly suspect that grieving family and friends find it more convenient to scapegoat something like a book, movie, or video game for their loss than take a good, hard look at the actually substantial factors behind the suicide, which, uncomfortably, might involve them and their own personal failures in some way.

I think why a lot of people are having a very hard time seeing that there isn't any possible way for Shinji to even have a "happy ending" is them trying to define what "happy" is.

A lot of us are accustomed to the idea of a "black and white" or "all or nothing" disneyesque happy ending instead of an ending that puts you in the middle. Now, I'm not saying that those endings are bad, but they do leave you with a misguided impression about what being "happy" could be, especially if circumstances are less than ideal.

It distorts our idea of life that there must be very little or no pain to be successfully happy or have the hope of being happy, cause there isn't usually any guarantee. And if they can't see ANY guarantee, then they immediately see only the worst outcome or view any possibility of a happy-ish ending as a "cop-out", as they feel that the bad eclipses the good, but that's not always true, cause even small acts of good can change a person's outlook or life of misery, as they plant the seeds of hope.

A lot of us are too dependent of the idea of an instant gratification sense of happiness, where your life has to be perfect with no pain to be happy, but that's not the world Anno is trying to tell us or the world that exists for most of us.

What Anno is trying to show with Evangelion that you need to have hope to go on, even when things seem really bad, which they aren't usually as bad as you think. The future for all of us is uncertain, and you can't just dwell on the uncertainty of it, nor retreat from it when things get bad, whether it's from people or mistakes you've made. Everything we do has repercussions with the world around us, and we have to be willing to risk making those actions and accept the consequences that come with them. Cause if you don't, you don't move forward in any way, you're only hiding from reality.

And yes, it's hard to do sometimes, I would know, I've run away sometimes from making risks or accepting consequences of mistakes I've made with friends and family. But, the more you endure, the more stronger you get, I can tell you that.

I'm a lot stronger individual from mistakes I've made more than my successes, and Shinji's case won't be any different.

After all, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger, and I have no doubt that Anno is going to give us an ending to Evangelion that shows just how strong and grown-up he can be. :)

What doesn't kill you leaves you crippled and open for attacks.

Have your mistakes ever ended in loss of life? If not than your argument does not exactly apply for the levels of trauma involved.