NGE Shinji is Oedipus

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NGE Shinji is Oedipus

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Postby cowman850 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:39 am

SPOILER: Show
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So while watching the original show and the Rebuilds with my girlfriend, she came to a startling conclusion.
The character of Oedpius is a tragic hero, forever remembered in Freuds 'Oedipus Complex'. But, before all that he was a hero who did wrong not through wickedness, but through ignorance. People kept secrets to protect him and in doing so caused his downfall and the downfall of his city.
Shinji did wrong not through innate evil (not looking at 2.22 Shinji, of course), but through his ignorance of the wider world.

Oedipus turned up one day, did one good thing and so stuck around because he wanted to help. He met a beautiful girl and fell in love, she turns out to be his mother. He became powerful, more powerful then he should of because no one warned him, and then this power brought plague upon the land. (In that case it was the gods revenge for Laius's murder but I digress). He stayed because he was happy, surrounded by friends, but mainly because he believed he was helping the people, a good king. All the secrets against him are found out and that's how he falls and his city falls.

Shinji turns up one day, does some good things and even though he hates it he sticks around because he wants to help people. He became powerful, too powerful, because no one warned him of what could happen. This power brings suffering upon the land, the third and forth impacts. He fall in love with a girl, Rei, who turns out to be a clone of his mother. He stayed because he liked his friends and wanted to help but all the secrets kept against him and his fathers secret plans cause him to over and over set terrible events in motion. This is how he falls and how the world falls.
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Re: NGE Shinji is Oedipus

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Postby zlink64 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:50 am

What's interesting about that is that the Greeks probably did blame Oedipus. The greeks had this weird view of fate. Like for the greeks fate wasn't some predetermined thing. More like a result of your personality. So when Opedius fuck up it was more because it's what he would've done regardless of circumstances. Like it was his Fate for things to work out the way they did because it's a part of who he is. The greek's would blame Opedius even if he was ignorant because his fate is tied directly to the kind of person he is.
So maybe it's Shinjis fate(greek view of fate) to just fuck up. Interesting comparison you've made. Just mentioning cause it kinda reminds me of how every one blames Shinji.
Last edited by zlink64 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: NGE Shinji is Oedipus

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:51 am

Did Oedipus give the world a chance to right itself like Shinji did in EoE?
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Postby KingXanaduu » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:02 pm

^

Pretty much. I'm not that familiar with ALL of Oedipus applies to Shinji, other than the weird infatuation he has with Rei. And, unlike Oedipus, Shinji is at least given a change to try again, as well as the entire world. The theme of Evangelion is more of a twisted "coming-of-age" story where Shinji learns to accept his faults, realizing that he isn't a bad person of because of who he is, and his failures are more about his struggle to try to live in the world around him and learn to live with people.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
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Re: NGE Shinji is Oedipus

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Postby zlink64 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:03 pm

@arcadia He just gouges his eyes out to punish himself. Not sure what happens after that. I think he goes on living as like a wanderer or something ...don't quote me though I don't remember.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_t ... ragic_flaw
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Re: NGE Shinji is Oedipus

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:05 pm

If that's the case, then I'm not sure if Oedipus is the best character to compare to Shinji
Never let the flame that is hope burn out, for despite the length of the night, the sunrise will always come
""Trolling the audience" is the same thing as "challenging the audience" (to an audience that doesn't want to be challenged)." -Reichu

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Postby cowman850 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:07 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:^

Pretty much. I'm not that familiar with ALL of Oedipus applies to Shinji, other than the weird infatuation he has with Rei. And, unlike Oedipus, Shinji is at least given a change to try again, as well as the entire world. The theme of Evangelion is more of a twisted "coming-of-age" story where Shinji learns to accept his faults, realizing that he isn't a bad person of because of who he is, and his failures are more about his struggle to try to live in the world around him and learn to live with people.


What brought it to my attention is that my girlfriend studies classical history, while I'm just an EVA nerd.
Everything in Shinji's life goes wrong though, I'm sure we can agree there.
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Re: NGE Shinji is Oedipus

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Postby cowman850 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:09 pm

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:If that's the case, then I'm not sure if Oedipus is the best character to compare to Shinji

There's a lot more to Oedipus than motherly infatuation and gouging his eyes out. :lol:
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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:16 pm

View Original Postcowman850 wrote:Everything in Shinji's life goes wrong though, I'm sure we can agree there.

I can't after watching EoE
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""Trolling the audience" is the same thing as "challenging the audience" (to an audience that doesn't want to be challenged)." -Reichu

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Postby Sachi » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:24 pm

How interesting. I literally just finished ready Oedipus again for my English class.

It should be noted that the popularized version of Oedipus featured in Sophocles play is an interpretation of the myth of Oedipus, which fleshes out aspects of the story and an established character and may contain some creative liberties from Sophocles himself; the Greeks were already familiar with the basic story, but Sophocles turned it into a character study.

Oedipus was doomed from the start, both by the fates and by his own character. Originally, his ankles were bound and he was abandoned because of the prophecy (step #1 toward self-fulfillment); after having grown up believing Polybus was his father, Oedipus hears of the prophecy and it an attempt to do actual good and protect Polybus, he runs away to avoid fulfilling it (step #2 toward self-fulfillment, and perhaps the most major one), and ends up going back in his original homeland unwittingly.

Now, while Oedipus was a good king, a wise and clever guy who solved the riddle of the Sphinx, he was not without many major flaws, most predominantly being an excess of rashness, pride, and anger. The play is interesting because of the way it develops his character and his flaws throughout, which eventually culminates into the tragedy at the end. After running away from Polybus, Oedipus crosses path with a small group of people that attempt to push him off the road; being the rash, prideful and angry kid that he was, Oedipus murders all of them in cold blood (unknowingly fulfilling the part of the prophecy about killing his own father). THIS is without a doubt the moment that sealed his fate, and it was all because of his flaws as a character that lead it to happen.

Later on he becomes king, and in an attempt to do the right thing as king, he tries to save the city by putting a curse on whoever had murdered the previous king, completely unaware that he was in fact cursing himself. While desperately trying to find the answer, his flaws as a character begin to show again, as he arrogantly accuses Creon of conspiring against him and displays impatience and anger with nearly everybody he interacts with.

As far as a comparison to Shinji Ikari, however, I'd say it's there to an extent, but I'm not sure how much I buy into it. Just like with Oedipus, Shinji's story can be seen as a tragedy that is attributed to the fates that be, as well as a culmination of his very own character flaws, however I think that's where the major comparisons end. Shinji's character flaws didn't seal his fate like they did with Oedipus; they simply made it easier for his fate to be controlled by others. The point of the exercise with Shinji is to value one own life and to live it for yourself, whereas the point of Oedipus seems to be that the gods are dicks and there's no escaping fate.
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Postby Stillborn » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:34 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:whereas the point of Oedipus seems to be that the gods are dicks and there's no escaping fate.


Sounds pretty much like Anno screwing Shinji in both continuities, regardless of which path he takes and how he approaches the problem, wheter he is passive or active he will fail because Anno demands so. So yeah. That applies to Shinji :P
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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:36 pm

Even though in NGE he didn't fail
Never let the flame that is hope burn out, for despite the length of the night, the sunrise will always come
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Postby Stillborn » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:40 pm

Well if you see it that way.

For me that's difference between being dead and being crippled and in pain for the rest of miserable life. I would consider both outcomes fail, but many people here woul call the second option "success" or hopefull just because the person is not dead.

So that's the difference in our view.
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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:43 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:and being crippled and in pain for the rest of miserable life.

Which isn't the situation Shinji's in at the end
Never let the flame that is hope burn out, for despite the length of the night, the sunrise will always come
""Trolling the audience" is the same thing as "challenging the audience" (to an audience that doesn't want to be challenged)." -Reichu

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Postby NemZ » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:57 pm

The real connection between all these fathers and sons is the hubris that they can deny fate/reality through their desperate actions, ignoring in their focus all the other people they harm in the process including themselves. There's still something heroic about them though, struggling against cruel fate for the sake of another even if that struggle is itself the source of the problem.
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Postby Sachi » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:58 pm

Shinji isn't being exiled to live with his guilt in that Post-3I landscape; he's being given the chance to pick up the pieces and start from scratch.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:03 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:As far as a comparison to Shinji Ikari, however, I'd say it's there to an extent, but I'm not sure how much I buy into it. Just like with Oedipus, Shinji's story can be seen as a tragedy that is attributed to the fates that be, as well as a culmination of his very own character flaws, however I think that's where the major comparisons end. Shinji's character flaws didn't seal his fate like they did with Oedipus; they simply made it easier for his fate to be controlled by others. The point of the exercise with Shinji is to value one own life and to live it for yourself, whereas the point of Oedipus seems to be that the gods are dicks and there's no escaping fate.


Oedipus also seems to be a cautionary tale against pride, which doesn't quite fit Shinji in either canon.

As to the comparison in general, I think it's good to clarify which version of Shinji we're talking about. The Shinji of NGE/EoE is not a tragic character, so the comparison doesn't really hold up well there at all. But in the NTE he is more of a tragic character, and he has a stronger connection to Rei, so there might be something to it there. It seems tenuous, but I think it's plausible enough to be worth considering.

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Sounds pretty much like Anno screwing Shinji in both continuities, regardless of which path he takes and how he approaches the problem, wheter he is passive or active he will fail because Anno demands so. So yeah. That applies to Shinji :P


Dude, seriously, quit with the trolling. You know good and well that there are no gods fucking with the fates of mortals in the Evangelion settings, and you also know good and well that the author doesn't count. All you're trying to do here is stir people up and make it look like you're making a valid argument. And seriously, how hard is it to grasp the notion that being either passive or active can both be bad depending on the circumstances? There is no universally right answer, and you ultimately have to slow down and think about what you're doing, and why, and how it will affect others. That is the "correct" answer. It's not very complicated.
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Re: NGE Shinji is Oedipus

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Postby KingXanaduu » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:18 pm

^
Dude, don't encourage him. He's just looking to derail threads with his views and his nihilistic attitudes towards all that is Evangelion and Anno-flavored.

As in regards to Shinji, he may be scarred from his experiences, but a wise monkey once said: "The past can hurt. But the way I see it you can either run from it, or LEARN from it." And Shinji definitely qualifies for the latter. Sure, he may struggle at first, like he did on the beach, but that doesn't mean he should give up. ^_^
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Sachi » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:24 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:As to the comparison in general, I think it's good to clarify which version of Shinji we're talking about. The Shinji of NGE/EoE is not a tragic character, so the comparison doesn't really hold up well there at all. But in the NTE he is more of a tragic character, and he has a stronger connection to Rei, so there might be something to it there. It seems tenuous, but I think it's plausible enough to be worth considering.

I think Shinji of NGE/EoE still qualifies as a tragic character to an extent, despite his story not ending in tragedy. Many of the problems he faces are due to his flaws, one of those being his passivity which allows others to control his life. His struggle is perpetuated by his lack of self-worth and self-determination. NTE is simply more overt about his life being directly manipulated by the "fates" (ie, Seele and Gendo), but that manipulation is still enabled by Shinji's own shortcomings in responsibly determining his own life which puts it in the same vein as his original NGE incarnation.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:33 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:I think Shinji of NGE/EoE still qualifies as a tragic character to an extent, despite his story not ending in tragedy. Many of the problems he faces are due to his flaws, one of those being his passivity which allows others to control his life. His struggle is perpetuated by his lack of self-worth and self-determination. NTE is simply more overt about his life being directly manipulated by the "fates" (ie, Seele and Gendo), but that manipulation is still enabled by Shinji's own shortcomings in responsibly determining his own life which puts it in the same vein as his original NGE incarnation.


I've never thought of passivity as being a tragic flaw per se, but I suppose it could be. In NGE it's far easier to characterize Asuka as a tragic character, as it's rather obvious how both her actions and her reactions to the events around her ultimately decide her fate. But with Shinji it doesn't really matter; his passivity can be seen as harmful in and of itself, but there are few cases where overcoming it would have made a significant difference (it might have helped with Asuka, certainly, but it's not like raging about his Eva being stuck in bakelite would have done anything for him).
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I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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