Q mod policy is retarded

[riffraff11235]

Don't fucking play that shit with me pal. Start leveling insults to my character and I will bite back, fucking hard.

I'm not commenting on your character. I'm just confused at the reactions being expressed in this topic. I'm really sorry if it came off that way.

You keep stressing the fact that the group being asked to modify their behavior gets no benefit from this modification. Other than the occasional short ban where necessary, I don't see what significant detriment this is causing them, either. The unspoiled aren't really "benefiting" from the policy, either: we're trying to stay the way we are.

[NemZ]

What else were we to do?

I said "some reason" because I didn't actually know why. Not saying dealing with this specific issue wasn't called for, but it's the general tone of the place that's got him pissed. That and this was ban #3 for him in as many weeks, the first two being part of the topic/bickering issue if I understand correctly.

[pwhodges]

People don't choose to be spoiled. If anything, it's an apathetic reaction; not caring. It's completely different than choosing to actively engage in a behavior.

Er, what? I choose to find out about this film I can't yet see, because I know it will not affect the way that I perceive it when I see it. This is the way I roll, whatever you may think; and clearly I am not alone, so your attempt to belittle this point of view and build a justification on that simply fails.

[NemZ]

The entire responsibility for changing behavior is placed upon those who will never benefit from the policy. This wrong is compounded by the fact that those who reap the benefits of the policy don't have to put forth an ounce of effort to get those rewards nor do they run the risk of suffering the consequences for violation.

This is how I see the problem as well. All the burden is placed on people who have no reason to give a shit about the policy.

In the smoking thing it was important to note the location in question, a bar; the kind of place where smoking used to be the expected norm and nonsmoking sections were a rare luxury. There was a not too distant time when walking into a bar and complaining about the smoke was on the same level of jackassery as complaining that alcohol is being served... if that's not what you came for then you're in the wrong fucking place.

This is an evangelion forum, and as such it should only be assumed that people are going to want to talk about the exciting new developments here. Spoilers are to be expected. Therefore if a person doesn't want to be spoiled they would be well advised to stay away from such places for the time being, and all the burden of enforcing this choice is rightfully on those who have a reason to care.

[Mr. Tines]

I think people have forgotten such old-fashioned notions such as courtesy and consideration for others.

If one must make it about payback, then I guess it has to be pointed out that the reward is not in immediate gratification, but in longer term reputation.

[Tribblepoo]

I'm not commenting on your character. I'm just confused at the reactions being expressed in this topic. I'm really sorry if it came off that way.

Sorry if I came off a bit strong. I just didn't want a repeat of what SEELE
already accused me of or worse, the usual crap that Bagheera sends my way. I just wanted to nip it in the bud, that's all.

You keep stressing the fact that the group being asked to modify their behavior gets no benefit from this modification. Other than the occasional short ban where necessary, I don't see what significant detriment this is causing them, either. The unspoiled aren't really "benefiting" from the policy, either: we're trying to stay the way we are.

I am going to kind of have to address this in reverse.

The unspoiled are benefiting from the policy by remaining unspoiled. The "remaining the way you are" is sort of part of the problem; not the unspoiled part, but the fact that this policy is constructed in such a way that to maintain that status requires no effort on your part.

Those who get no benefit from this policy; those of us that really don't give two shits about spoilers (and thus any spoiler policy by definition would never benefit us) are being asked to shoulder the entire burden of maintaining the unspoiled state of those who actually do care. On top of that, with the nature of the policy itself (as well as the nature of spoilers), the liklihood of those who wish to remain spoiler-free violating this policy is virtually nil. This has the effect of placing the burden of consequence on those who will not benefit from this policy.

Degree of behavior change, weight of consequence or any related issues do not have any bearing on these concepts. They can serve to make the issue worse by being more severe, but cannot alter the flaws by being less severe.

In short; those who are required to change their behavior or suffer the consequences are not those who will benefit and those who do benefit bear no responsibility.

The policy needs to be changed on that basis alone. I have a few ideas on things that might work, but until I become convinced that I am not pissing into the wind here, I won't waste anyone's time with them.

[Dream]

Personally, i think a vegan or allergy analogy (preferably the former) would be more appropiate than a smoking one.

You're a vegan, for whichever reason you refuse to eat meat, you're disgusted by it, you can't even see the roasted pieces of what was once a living animal being eaten. That is perfectly understandable, and no sane or decent person is going to shove meat down your throat. However, demanding that any place you go to eliminates all meat from your sight will raise more than a few eyebrows, and outside your private residence such a request isn't likely to be granted. Directly telling everyone that if they even so much as dare to talk about meat within earshot of you, you will jam a spoon in their eye-socket (in reference to the ban punishments) will get you into a straightjacket.

However, i have to say, i don't mind the spoiler policy. It is pretty clear, and i can see why it is on such terms. If people don't want spoilers i respect that as long as they don't attack me. It's not too hard for me and i don't care one way or the other. I don't write fan-fiction nor post pictures or make any meaningful contributions to the forums outside FML posts and related shitposting, so it's certainly much easier for me than for, say, coL, Shinchan or Bagheera. However, i do take issue with how it's being implemented, and specially with the zero-policy, insta-ban hammer for completely uncalled for situation. Yes, i know staff was dealing with a lot at the time, i know it didn't work out with 2.0., i know there has to be some sort of punishment, i know staff and many people don't see being banned for 3 days or a week as a big deal. Frankly, it's a bit hard to remain sympathethic to either staff or unsullied ones when they seem completely unwilling to view things from the other perspective or reach any sort of understanding. But it's not that, actually, i think i started losing sympathy after coL got banned in a very fucked up and uncalled for manner, when literally anything else would have been better. Although somewhat ironically, coL doesn't seem all that bothered by the ban from what i talked to him, don't know if he will say anything about his banning when he returns. Don't know if he'll still post pictures after that bullshit either.

RiffRaff: I think you're missing the point and being unintentionally callous. It's not that the detriment is a significant one, it's that the group being demanded and coerced to change their behavior shouldn't be changing it at all, or at the very least, they shouldn't be getting so much shit thrown at their way while (to many people's eyes at least) people who wish to remain unsullied don't actually do anything towards that goal. I have a very different (positive) opinion of Blue Monday than i do of staff and unsullied ones, if you catch my drift. And for you guys, staying the way you are is beneffiting, and even if it were, i don't think you can be blind to the fact that "commodity", for lack of a better word, is coming at the cost of a sizable portion of the community, the least you could do is put some effort on your part, and that doesn't go to you personally.

[riffraff11235]

The policy needs to be changed on that basis alone. I have a few ideas on things that might work, but until I become convinced that I am not pissing into the wind here, I won't waste anyone's time with them.

I'm ready and willing to listen. And I'm sure the mods would like to hear your ideas as well if they have any chance of improving the current situation. Regardless of the original intent, the policy does seem to be generating quite a bit of bitterness, which is obviously a bad thing.

@Dream Other than deciding to completely avoid any Evangelion-related areas on the Internet, what "effort" can we possibly make? I think this is the point of the policy: to create an environment where those that want to avoid spoilers can still remain connected, albeit in a limited fashion, to the fandom that they know and love.

I can see what Tribblepoo was saying about being spoiled by just not caring about spoilers, but there are others like Xard who actively jumped into the flood of information about Q from the moment it hit theaters. As such, you do have some responsibility towards the rest of us, as your actions could prove irrevocably detrimental. Bans get lifted after a few days; spoilers don't leave the mind as easily. I apologize if it sounds like I'm taking things too seriously, but this is something I've been looking forward to for over a year.

[Dream]

I admit i don't really have any arguments towards the second paragraph of your post, and i have to agree with you. I don't know what other effort you could make, and i should have thought better than to have written something like that in my previous post, i apologize. Like i said before, i agree with the spoiler policy and understand why it's so expansive (not in avatars, don't even talk about it, etc.) But have serious issues with the way the punishments are being handled, specially when people who have nothing to do with Rebuild one way or the other get caught up in it.

I don't know what you refer to with Xard's actions, but i do understand what you mean regarding having some responsibility towards the rest of the community once you have knowledge or possesion of spoilers. I'm sure that if coL was aware (something in which mods might have helped, i don't recall seeing any recommendations of asking a mod when you're unsure if an image is a spoiler) He would have taken that responsibility too. As it happened though, he was terribly punished for something he didn't even know he was doing. I do understand that the spoilers can cause irrevocable damage, and that one week of being banned doesn't compare to being spoiled for something you've been looking forward to a year. But please understand that, for me, it majorly sucks to see a contributing member get summarily banned for something he wasn't even aware and he wanted nothing to do with (as far as i know, coL isn't a rebuild fan) and everyone going "Yeah, he should have known better" I do understand that you take this seriously and i can see why, but please understand that i take things like unfair bannings very seriously too.

[CJD]

The problem is clearly illustrated by what you said here. The entire responsibility for changing behavior is placed upon those who will never benefit from the policy. This wrong is compounded by the fact that those who reap the benefits of the policy don't have to put forth an ounce of effort to get those rewards nor do they run the risk of suffering the consequences for violation.

This isn't fucking hard labor. No one's sitting here asking you to build a house for someone. All that's being asked of you, or anyone, with this spoiler policy is the exact same thing that's asked of every person everywhere: "Don't be a dick." If that's such an absurd thing to ask of someone then they have a problem they need to fix.

So I need to modify my behavior to cater to your emotional whim? Let me put this as succinctly and kindly as possible. That is selfish.

No, it's called "Not being a fucking prick." You know, like billions of people do every fucking day on planet Earth. You know what's selfish? Acting like someone's trying to ride you like a horse all because someone's asking you to not post fucking spoilers outside of the designated spoiler zone. This isn't fucking /a/ or /v/, being a selfish prick isn't the expected fucking norm here.

I think people have forgotten such old-fashioned notions such as courtesy and consideration for others.

I think some people never learned it.

[riffraff11235]

I've kinda been considering Xard the unofficial "face" of the "Q Spoilers and Beyond" subforum, since I believe he's been one of the most active users there and he created the original "Q Spoilers" thread in Rebuild, IIRC.

With situations like these, mistakes and regrettable actions are bound to happen. We'll see how CoL reacted to this once his/her* ban is lifted in a couple of days.

*Can someone clear up the matter of CoL's gender for me? I've seen both "he" and "she" being used throughout this thread to refer to him/her.

[Dream]

To be fair, if Tribblepoo saw this as a rational, sympathethic request, i'm very sure he wouldn't have the slightless problem with complying. The problem is that he sees the policy as extremely selfish and inmature. He thinks it's morally wrong, and that's why he's opposing so hard. For him, this isn't like being an inconsiderate dick, but like standing up to someone harassing another person (or any other morally repulsive behavior).

At that's how i think it is, of course the only who can say for sure is Tribblepoo himself. But please understand, it's not that he doesn't care, it's that for him, it's you and the people who made the policy those who never learned courtesy and consideration for others.

For what it's worth, i think both the staff and the people who defend the policy almost always present their arguments in a civil (if not exactly respectful/kind) manner.

EDIT: RiffRaff: From what i talked with coL, he doesn't seem to care all that much, if at all. In fact i wouldn't be surprised if he didn't post here at all and, if asked about it, would say he didn't have a problem with it nor did he found his ban unfair. And no one knows coL's gender, it's one of the mysteries of Eva Geeks.

[NemZ]

Fixing the problem:

1) Assume the rebuild forum as a whole is fair game for spoilers. The rest of the forum should stay spoiler free because frankly nothing rebuild-related belongs outside of that forum anyway.

2) End the zero tolerance policy. Mods should correct spoilers and offer warnings via PM, not instaban unless it's a repeat offense or its flagrantly intentional (including things like my 'test', for the sake of argument).

3) People who want to stay spoiler free need to stay the hell away from anything rebuild-related and must accept that merely by being in any part of the forums they're willfully carrying some risk of spoilers just by the nature of the place.

[ZapX]

Dream: Except it's not about harassing anyone and it's not "morally repulsive". It's just the policy we've enacted and it's the same policy that was there for latter part of 2.0. Ornette and Tines have both explained why it got so hastily put together. I don't agree 100% with the policy either but that's what we've got this time. That's also why we as staff are trying to meet y'all halfway and ask what you'd recommend we do differently next time. That's not to say everything anyone suggests is going to happen, but it's not like we're above listening and making some changes.

I don't like CoL being banned either, because s/he's nice to pretty much everyone and never causes any trouble. But to say that it's "morally repulsive" to ban her for a week for posting a huge spoiler is overstating the issue. It's nothing personal at all, it's just how the policy is. We don't hate CoL and we love having her around. If Tines, Reichu, or Ornette did the same they'd be banned for a week too. If Faz, SSD, or Ursus did the same, they'd be sat out for a week. It's nothing personal and it's not playing favorites or harassing anyone.

Now, if people want to suggest ways to do things differently that's fine, but this back and forth stuff is getting really old. The "you did X" "oh yeah? well you're doing Y" isn't gonna get anything done. This thread is just going in circles at this point.

[Tribblepoo]

Fixing the problem:

1) Assume the rebuild forum as a whole is fair game for spoilers. The rest of the forum should stay spoiler free because frankly nothing rebuild-related belongs outside of that forum anyway.

2) End the zero tolerance policy. Mods should correct spoilers and offer warnings via PM, not instaban unless it's a repeat offense or its flagrantly intentional (including things like my 'test', for the sake of argument).

3) People who want to stay spoiler free need to stay the hell away from anything rebuild-related and must accept that merely by being in any part of the forums they're willfully carrying some risk of spoilers just by the nature of the place.

These touch on a couple of ideas that I had on the matter. My idea goes into a little more detail, but these are the basic points I have been pondering.

The problem is that he sees the policy as extremely selfish and inmature.

Not exactly. I've said it before; I find this policy completely lacking in any sort of imagination, foresight or fairness. I really think that even a little consideration for any of those three would have produced a much better policy.

As for immature, there are some defenders of the policy...

This isn't fucking hard labor. No one's sitting here asking you to build a house for someone. All that's being asked of you, or anyone, with this spoiler policy is the exact same thing that's asked of every person everywhere: "Don't be a dick." If that's such an absurd thing to ask of someone then they have a problem they need to fix.

I addressed this a couple of times in this thread already. It's the fact that any effort is being forced on some and not others is one of the major issues. Go back and read more if you want elaboration.

No, it's called "Not being a fucking prick." You know, like billions of people do every fucking day on planet Earth. You know what's selfish? Acting like someone's trying to ride you like a horse all because someone's asking you to not post fucking spoilers outside of the designated spoiler zone. This isn't fucking /a/ or /v/, being a selfish prick isn't the expected fucking norm here.

I'm pretty sure your attitude is the definition of selfish. You are expecting to be able to simply sit back and do nothing in order to reap the rewards of the efforts of others. That is exactly what this policy does and you have admitted that you like this policy and you obviously lash out at anyone who disagrees in order to preserve your state.

You call it "not being a dick", but tell me, which is more dickish, expecting everyone to accept equal responsibility or expecting others to shoulder all the burden for you?

I think some people never learned it.

Pot, meet Kettle...

[Mr. Tines]

Fixing the problem:

1 is what we did last time. It was a mess.
2 ditto, ditto
3 if only the spoilers stayed in rebuild rather than oozing into chit-chat and off-topic

[CJD]

*Can someone clear up the matter of CoL's gender for me? I've seen both "he" and "she" being used throughout this thread to refer to him/her.

She's a dudette.

Edit:

I addressed this a couple of times in this thread already. It's the fact that any effort is being forced on some and not others is one of the major issues. Go back and read more if you want elaboration.

I don't accept that excuse. This is life, life isn't fair. Deal with it. If the burden being put on you was difficult to uphold I'd be on your side completely, but it's not. The effort being asked of you is, again, no greater than the effort asked of every person everywhere every day. "Don't be a dick." Billions of people go about their lives every day managing this, I find it hard to believe members of EGF can't.

I'm pretty sure your attitude is the definition of selfish. You are expecting to be able to simply sit back and do nothing in order to reap the rewards of the efforts of others. That is exactly what this policy does and you have admitted that you like this policy and you obviously lash out at anyone who disagrees in order to preserve your state.

The only person I've lashed out at is you because of your "Burden being put on people who don't benefit from it." bullshit which comes off as nothing more than amoral garbage. The fact that someone could be so selfish as to draw the pitchforks to the extent you have all because people are asking them something as simple as "Don't post spoilers outside of the spoiler area." is offensive and only devalues the efforts of people who draw the pitchforks when something actually worth drawing the pitchforks happens.

You call it "not being a dick", but tell me, which is more dickish, expecting everyone to accept equal responsibility or expecting others to shoulder all the burden for you?

But you're not asking for everyone to accept equal responsibility. You're asking for no responsibility for people who read spoilers. You would have the non spoiler people abandon this forum all together just so you can post your spoilers wherever you want. You say the pendulum is too far to the right, you'd have it swing all the way to the left to better fit you, and that's fucking selfish.

Here are the options:

A) Non spoiler people leave all together so we can post spoilers wherever the hell we want
B) We only post spoilers in the Q forum, where they belong based on topic anyway, and everyone can stay.

Either way one of the two has to carry a bigger load than the other. The difference is with B we carry a jug of milk and with A they carry a box of cinder blocks.

Pot, meet Kettle...

I chuckled.

[NemZ]

1 is what we did last time. It was a mess.
2 ditto, ditto
3 if only the spoilers stayed in rebuild rather than oozing into chit-chat and off-topic

In what way was it a mess? People keep saying this and I just don't get it.

[Tribblepoo]

What I don't understand is, if this policy is so justified, why are people getting so venomous in defense of it and resorting to personal attacks while defending it?

[Anonymous_Evafan]

So this has jackshit to do with me or anything but the tone and terms I'm seeing from all sides rings uncomfortably similar to an event I was party to on another forum which resulted in a years long conflict with the staff there that has yet to be resolve and inflicted considerable damage to the section I frequented there so Imma throw my 2 cents in.

I'll start by saying I don't disagree with what they're trying to do, it is very similar to what we requested of the staff of the other forum. That said, I'm not a fan of insta bans. So my question is would a compromise where warnings are reinstituted BUT if they are not heeded a much harsher ban is levied be acceptable to all parties? It could be a simple you get one warning and if you don't learn you get hit with a 2 week+ ban. If you don't know if it counts as a spoiler don't post it, no second warnings will be given. This would be harsh enough to provide a meaningful deturrent while allowing for accidents the first one at least but if you don't learn from that you kinda bring it on yourself, provided the situation is currently excessive enough to warrant such a stance. Yes, I'm aware this will mean more work but I am of the opinion the right way to do things is rarely the easy way.