[DOUJINSHI] Re-Take

[Eric Blair]

Yep, I still have the Zeruel battle, the ensuing part where Shinji tires to understand what he feels for Asuka, Rei2's debacle, Asuka giving herself up to Shinji, Ghost Asuka making an appearance, and Rei 2's death.

and then Retake 2, 3, 0, 4, and after.

And THEN, all ages 1, retake 1.5, all ages 2 and all ages 3.

[facespace]

Can someone give me an explanation to the end of re-take. The last couple of panels left me confused and then sad.

SPOILER: Show

Where Shinji is kissing Asuka in Germany and then it starts to snow, then it changes to an young Asuka-like child, was it a dream, or is that their child? (Honestly I just saw Inception and it left a lasting impression on viewing things LOL).

[Eric Blair]

Think of the Animu series as Universe A, and let's identify the Shinji and Asuka characters there by appending a letter "A" to the end of their name; Shinji A, Asuka A.

Now, think of the Manga series as universe B.

Now, think of Shinji from universe A as a "slider" that jumps from universe A to inhabit Shinji from universe's B body. Most of Retake takes place in universe B, except for the end of Vol. 4, where Shinji A and Asuka A are at the edge of the red sea.

Retake after takes place in universe B, but with the characters of Shinji and Asuka having no recollection of what happened in Retake.

The epilogue of Retake after is a different universe, universe C if you want, and the girl there is another possibility of the outcome of Retake.

After all, remember Asuka's words: "During instrumentality a number of words were created... all of the different, all of the the same."

[GrummanCat]

Can someone give me an explanation to the end of re-take. The last couple of panels left me confused and then sad.

SPOILER: Show

Where Shinji is kissing Asuka in Germany and then it starts to snow, then it changes to an young Asuka-like child, was it a dream, or is that their child? (Honestly I just saw Inception and it left a lasting impression on viewing things LOL).

SPOILER: Show

It was a glimpse into the future. That was their child and she's talking to them in the last couple of frames. Of course we don't see them and they must be grown adults now, but we know they're there.

[facespace]

Oh thanks!

SPOILER: Show

I was afraid that it didn't end happily.

[tehprognoob]

Now I know there should've been a space of 4 years before I can look at that thing but wth, I loved it.(DO I need to say it? I skipped the sex parts.) I'm still confused, though, which is great, 'cause a clearly understandable Eva doujin is not a good one. If you ignore the cover and the sex scenes then it might seem like an official publication. *Sigh* looks like I'll never get to that point awesomeness in my fanfics. (points dejectedly at signature.)

[AngelNo13Bardiel]

*Sigh* looks like I'll never get to that point awesomeness in my fanfics. (points dejectedly at signature.)

Eh, don't feel bad. It raised the bar for all of us (especially those with "redo" fics...like me).

[Sailor Star Dust]

The epilogue of Retake after is a different universe, universe C if you want, and the girl there is another possibility of the outcome of Retake.

After all, remember Asuka's words: "During instrumentality a number of words were created... all of the different, all of the the same."

I thought the epilogue of after was still in Universe B aka Manga-verse, just A/S as adults with Kami-chan. Though it could always be just another universe too.

[supershinjiasukashipper]

Ok, let's try this.

Strictly speaking; it is porn. Even if the last issue had no more than two frames of sex in it.

And where else can I get some thoughts on it but at my Evaboard?

So I finally got to Re-Take 4 today, and I am thoroughly impressed. Even if it's not as well-planned as the original series, it's fukken marvelous for a fan-made doujinshi. It kept playing tricks on my all the time, and even if the ending made it so entirely different from the original work, that was just the beauty of it, because I cannot see this happening in the upcoming official projects. Not quite Eva, but under these circumstances, it's more than alright. As a fanmade kind of spoof, 'twas just gorgeous.

Any thoughts before this is eradicated for corrupting the youth?

Seriously, this is much more worthy of our attention than any awful parody/outtake-youtube crap.

If you want I can give you all of the re-take files, my treat.

[symbv]

I know this is an old thread. In fact Re-Take being from 2005/6 I am a very very late comer to this amazing godsend for Eva (and Asuka) fans like us who was absolutely downtrodden by what we saw in the endings in NGE and EoE. I have never been so moved by reading a manga, much less a doujinshi one based on established manga/anime. I literally had tears flow out of my eyes when I read the "ich verspreche dir" speech from Asuka. I never ever felt so trembled with emotion reading a manga, and I am not young any more (I watched the TV anime when I was in college, so you can have a good stab of how old I am).

Anyway, I am glad to see Re-Take is still being discussed in some forums. I have searched high and low for such forum and I finally find one!

Actually I only got Re-take last week. I somehow found the doujinshi sitting in an obscure corner in a small adult manga store in Akihabara. There were some sample pic and found the pictures seemed to be drawn very well and given I am not against H stuff I bought 2 volumes. Imagine how pleasantly surprised I was when I opened and read them!! I actually shouted with joy! The next day I put in mail order for the remaining volumes (I live in Japan so it is not too difficult) while I downloaded whatever I could find on the Internet -- English translation, Chinese translation, Japanese original (I can read all 3 languages). So far I must have read the whole series more than 10 times. I also read whatever analysis and reviews I could find (there are fewer than I thought given the overwhelmingly high praises I saw in posts that mentioned it) I noticed that the translation may not always be accurate to the Japanese text, and some details are only given in the picture not in the dialog. And reading the original manga very closely multiple times gave me some confidence of what happened in the manga.

I see some questions being raised in this thread, and most have been answered. I hope my 2 cents could help a bit here:

1) Asuka already lost the child when it beamed her out of 02 before the explosion, wandering off along with her mind, becoming Kami-chan. And at the end of RT4, it sure looked like she died for good (well, until being reborn for the end of RTA) rather than returning to the womb.

This is not the case. The child was more like a phantom being generated by the baby in Asuka and sustained by Asuka's soul. This is why just before Kami-chan disappeared she said "mama ni kariteta takaramono.. yatto.. kaese.." (I finally...return...the treasure I borrowed from Mama). and then Asuka returned to herself immediately afterwards. This means she is returning her soul and consciousness back to Asuka after giving up her own existence. She had to also go because as it stood at that time, Asuka's child was also an Angel. When Angel-Shinji and EOE-Asuka picked to end their existence on that world, they brought down all Angel existence from that world.

More evidence is in AFTER, 1) Asuka told Shinji on school ground "demo ritsuko ni tanonde taigen ni modoshite morattakara, mou sonna sekinin kanji nakute ii wayo" (but since I asked Ritsuko to return my body back to original state, you do not need to feel like taking responsibility) It is clear that Asuka asked Ritsuko to help her have an abortion.

And then 2) Hikari asked Asuka "Asuka... doushite shujitsu nanka.. ukechatta no?" (why did you take the medical operation?) and then she went on saying (translation) "You may no longer remember what happened.. but if you do such things, Shinji would not like it, would he? ... and what would become between you and Shinji then?" This is a strong indication that Asuka only lost the baby after Re-take 4.

2) Unless it was a translation error, according to Misato it had (at least) been already three months since the end of RT4. One month of her pregnancy already passed when she announced it in RT2, so she'd be at least in the 4th month by then. While not impossible, abortions get harder and harder the longer the pregnancy goes on. Also, I'm pretty sure you would see something by then.

Misato mentioned "three months" once in AFTER, and that was not exactly about time passed after RT4, but saying Asuka no longer living at Misato's place for 3 months, and that was also 3 days before Asuka's scheduled departure for Germany. If Asuka did not move out immediately after RT4, it could be more than 3 months had past after RT4 before Asuka flew back to Germany.

However, in the manga it never stated very clearly exactly when the abortion happened, but it should be before the scene with Asuka and Ritsuko. I believe it happened soon after RT4 as soon as Asuka was back to her former self.

3) I don't know about the general census about the topic of abortion in Japan, but it seems to be pretty much brushed aside for such a serious matter, being just a side note in the Shinji/Asuka relationship discussions; a mere sign for Asuka being stubborn. Her upcoming return to Germany seems to be much more of a problem.
Given how big of a plot-point the child was in 2-4, it seems kinda odd that such issue would be dropped like this, never even to be mentioned again after the first third of the book.

I think the manga wrapped up that part pretty neatly. The baby was an Angel (because Shinji was an Angel when the baby was conceived). She projected a strong AT Field to help her mom (Asuka) but also "borrowed" her soul to form a separate phantom being visible to EOE-Asuka (and when she was about to disappear, apparently also visible to Asuka who had lost her mind). The destruction of Angel-Shinji + EOE-Asuka caused the Angel Kami-chan to disappear, returning the soul back to Asuka with the embryo inside her still intact. And when Asuka thus "woke up", she could not bear the thought of marrying to Shinji, much less bearing his child. So she asked Ritsuko to help her abort. And then we entered into AFTER.

4) Granted, this might just be because of my personal view of her, but I just don't see Asuka aborting her child, at least not in this context. Remembering every detail or not, she still has feelings for Shinji. After all, she only leaves in the end as to not taint the image of the Asuka she thinks Shinji loves. Yes, Asuka does tend to go pretty far when it comes to keeping up facades, as well as being... a bit grouchy when things annoy her (like Shinji just going after her only, if at all, because he "has" to) but killing their child just for that? Again, it might just be me not wanting to think of her like that, but I just can't see her doing that.

Back to the Hikari's question again here -- "You may no longer remember what happened... but if you do such things, Shinji would not like it, would he? ... and what would become between you and Shinji then?" Asuka's answer "Ato mikka de kikoku shinakya ikenai noni, imasara dounaru tte iu noyo" (in 3 days I have to fly back home. isn't it too late to ask what would become for us) (the word "imasara" is used repeatedly in Re-Take. It roughly means "too late to (do something)") Remember she has to live her proud self all the time. Even in AFTER, she still had to live that facade, although with ever more difficulty. I could entirely believe that when she woke up and without any memory of the intimate relationship Shinji and she developed since Shinji came back from Sea of Dirac, she would have every reason to reject something so much related to Shinji from her body. And of course as Ritsuko (and Kaji and Misato) mentioned so many times "Ato de koukai suru" (and regret it only later) This fits into the key theme of this manga of take responsible and courageous actions/sacrifice for others.

Then there's Ritsuko's "You'll regret this"-line.

I think it is a general comment by Ritsuko of all the decisions Asuka had taken so far -- abortion, leaving Shinji, leaving Japan etc etc

Actually I think the Angel Kami-chan actually seemed to know that Asuka would abort the baby after she came back to herself, as she begged Asuka "Kondo koso chanto papa to mama no kodomo ni umarechareru yone. Dakara mama.. papa to naka yokushite...ne. Watashi.. zettai ai ni iku kara... kanbaru kara" (next time I will come properly as the child of papa and mama... so mama.. please keep good company with papa... I... am sure to come to meet you.. I will work hard on that...) So that Kami-chan did not think she would come back soon, and of course not as the baby already in Asuka's womb at that time.

In fact with her talk about "knowing the consequences" and holding him in, it seems like she willingly accepted that possibility if not even aiming for it.
So while one could argue that she doesn't remember what got her on that route, this Asuka B already quite established that she in truth isn't all that generally appalled by the thought of having a child.

It actually did not start with Asuka wanting to get pregnant. (Hentai warning!!!) When Asuka first seduced Shinji, just before Shinji ejaculated, Shinji told Asuka that he will come soon. Shinji was trying to pull out, saying "I am really com..." Asuka said "Just come then" Shinji "That's not good" Asuka "You baka?" Shini "Eh?" Asuka "ko...no watashi ga sono teido... no kakugo mo nashi ni... konna..koto suru todemo.. omotten no?" (Would you... think that... I being so smart... would not ... get some kind of.. preparation first... before doing this?) She actually took measures to prevent pregnancy before she decided to have sex with Shinji.

The word "kakugo" could mean mental preparation or physical preparation. If the first meaning is taken, of course it could mean "take the consequences" but I would say the second meaning is the right meaning. The tone of her words means that she is showing off how smart she is. The word "kono watashi wa" is a proud form of watashi. This means she thinks she was smart to have thought out everything before engaging in sex. Of course she did not count on what happened later...

It was only later, when Shinji "raped" Asuka in the changing room then Asuka really got concerned. During the act, Asuka thought "icchau no? Yaba... Shinji ni kono mama dasaretara watashi made..." (He's coming? Oh no... if Shinji ejaculates like this, I would be...)

Also in RT1.5 it was showing an embryo growing at the end. One interpretation could be that Asuka was conceived during the non-stop sex sessions they had in a hotel room, though I still incline towards the view that Asuka got pregnant in the changing room.

I dunno; the "punch in the nose" that is the start for After seems to be something along the lines of "You [took my virginity, now I stitched it back again/ made me pregnant and I got rid of him], and I'm still pissed." :P

I do not look at it that way. In the discussion between Shinji and Touji, Touji asked Shinji why Shinji got punched just because he tried to ask her to stay. Shinji said "Nande sonna koto iu nda... tte kikareta karasa" "Minna sekinin tore tte iu ka... tte" (She asked me why I said such thing (asked her to stay)) (I said everyone said I should take responsibility) Touji then shot back "Aho ka!! Sora nagurareru wa" (You stupid!! Of course you got hit! ) For me the "responsibility" is getting her pregnant (so Shinji had the responsibility to take care of her and so she should stay). I don't think just because Shinji took Asuka's virginity, everyone would suggest Shinji that he should take "responsiblity" and ask her to stay.

So it is not a simple "I need to get level with Shinji for "robbing my virginity / getting me pregnant" but because Shinji gave the wrong reason why he came to ask her to say -- "everyone said I should take responsibilty". If he were brave to face his emotion and stated how much her presence with him meant to him, the result would be very different. This is further proved by the explanation by Asuka to Hikari why she had to go. When Hikari asked whether it was really good for her to just leave, Asuka answered "II mo warui mo nai wayo. Nani mo kawaranai. Aitsu ga jibun ni hikeme wo kanjiteiru ijo isho niwa irarenai mono" (It is not good or bad. Nothing changes. As long as that chap could not pull himself together we can never be together) She disliked his timidity and the habit of run away from things. Although Shinji actually wanted her to stay because he loved her, he had to draw in others and made his decision one that was decided by others and he was just obliged to follow. This was what got Asuka so fired up and punched Shinji. In fact the second time Asuka punched Shinji, it was still about "sekinin" (responsibility) !!

This episode should happen not too long after end of RT4 because Asuka was not showing any outward sign of pregnancy. We are also not sure how much time passed between the first and the second time Shinji got hit by Asuka. Neither do we know if Asuka had aborted already when she hit Shinji the first time. The scene of Ritsuko and Asuka happened in between but that was just a discussion of the two when Asuka came to say goodbye, not necessarily mean that she had just had operation by Ritsuko (most likely not at the same time).

Also, my take is that quite some time passed between the Hikari scene and the Misato + Shinji scene, compared to all the various scenes before that. Possibly Asuka moved out of Misato after hitting Shinji the second time and then 3 months passed....

[Eric Blair]

(I watched the TV anime when I was in college, so you can have a good stab of how old I am).

You age says 42

Thank you for adding what you know to this discussion; the theme of who or what exactly was Kami, as well as the sequels she leaves, has always been a cause for speculation amongst the fans that read and fell in love with this story; what you bring to the table is very interesting, and I'm sure more than one will find this explains past questions but opens new ones.

I have searched high and low for such forum and I finally find one!

Well, there is the official Retake thread somewhere around here, and this is one of those "questions" thread that will more than likely be merged if the mods/admins see it fit, but yeah, there's a wiki section for it as well, (I have a long overdue synopsis for all of retake, in fact. ) so feel free to aks or post here or in the other thread.

I downloaded whatever I could find on the Internet -- English translation, Chinese translation, Japanese original (I can read all 3 languages) [...] I noticed that the translation may not always be accurate to the Japanese text

The cause for that might be that Anonymous Spore used the Korean translations (I think the original scanlation posted long, long ago was in fact korean, someone who was there at the time in the old lemonastica forums could maybe chime in and confirm this or not.

"Imasara" and "koukai"

I think those two ideas, as well as "responsibility" is the turning point in all of Retake; the guiding light so to say; whenever I hear "imasara" I think of someone bemoaning lost chances; thinking how they are faced with something "now, after such a long time"; or the typical eleventh hour dilemma, someone that must take charge of something realizing "it's too late for that", and they are forced to reckon this, and forced to see or think what could have been; at first Shinji takes charge of this, throughout Retake 1-4, imasara and koukai take a back light to Shinji's sekininkan; him stepping up to the plate and deciding to "live" and hence right what was wrong.

The echo lies there, on everyone, but especially Asuka and Shinji after the whole ordeal; it seems like all the growing up they did as character throughout Retake was screeched to a halt by them "forgetting", so in a sense, Shinji is trying to avoid being responsible by making others force the responsibility on him, and Asuka seems content with being the one running away, probably because she doesn't understand anything, probably because she believes she has been left in such a vulnerable position that she expected Shinji to be responsible not because it's the "right thing to do" but because he wants to.

yes, I think your Imasara, koukai and sekininkan concepts are the key to understanding Retake as a whole, but it brings greater insight for After in particular, symbv.

[symbv]

You age says 42

So birth year is a public attribute in the profile... Well, really don't want to flout my age, as I have a feeling that I am the oldest chap in this forum...

I could be called as coming from the first generation of EVA fans, meaning I started when NGE came out. I was once very passionate about EVA and was very active online, translating stuff for overseas fandom etc. However since EoE for various reasons I turned away from Eva (in fact all anime and manga in general) for most of the last decade. I have not even checked out the two Rebuild movies yet for example. Re-Take played a critical role in rekindling the flame in me about Eva and anime/manga in general. From the archive posts I know many people quite dislike Re-Take, or at least being indifferent. It was far from that for me. In fact, I feel like Asuka in RT AFTER -- only after seeing Asuka/Eva/manga again after so long did I know how much I love Asuka/Eva/manga :-) I once thought I had moved on and memory buried but I was only running from myself (how very Eva, ha ha) Anyway, RT gave me back my anime/manga life. I might even go and check out Eva Rebuild someday...

Well, there is the official Retake thread somewhere around here

You mean this one?
http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php ... &start=420
or somewhere outside evageeks forum?

there's a wiki section for it as well

You mean this one?
http://wiki.evageeks.org/

Actually I kind of wonder - could part or all of it ported to the wikipedia proper? Or there is policy of restricting the volume of fictional contents to take up space in wikipedia? Just think that audience may be much bigger in wikipedia....

I have a long overdue synopsis for all of retake [...] so feel free to aks or post here or in the other thread.

I could also help in writing up summary of re-take too. How far have you gone so far?

To me all the RT volumes (excluding RT1.5 although even there there is some element of story really linking the RT thread) are necessary. RT0 shed a lot more light on the internal struggle of EoE-Asuka and how her thinking shifted from one incident to another as the story moved on. It made the final shift of attitude of EoE-Asuka in RT4 much more convincing. RT AFTER is absolutely necessary, not just to tie up the baby issue, but bring out the main themes of the RT manga again and showed how taking that extra step extra effort to reach out would bring happiness to those involved. RT4 ended like Shinji and Asuka were back to their ever bickering mode and this would be a much too small reward for all the huge sacrifice Angel-Shinji and EoE-Asuka made to give up their existence in that world (they terminated their existence on that world). RT AFTER showed that even though both may have difficulty remembering all they went through, their mind still kept a part of those past expereince past attachment, and at the end somewhere in their mind they would recall that bit of memory, that bit of feeling. The question is how you want to deal with the feeling -- run from it? deny it? or face it and take action? I know they all could sound cliche and too sunny warmy, but I also think it is a very powerful and positive message. And after Anno messed up fans expectation by plunging all characters in EoE into deeper inescapable abyss and further psychotic disorder, such message is much more helpful than all those real life footage shown in EoE. At least it is not abstract, philosophical or cryptic.

I have been in love with the character Asuka and I never know how much I wanted her to be happy until I read RT AFTER. I had been trying to imagine what a happy ending for Asuka may be like. Thanks to Re-Take I no longer have to imagine. I have the manga with me that I can always go back to. I know it all sounds cheesy but as Shinji told his father in the manga "Feelings don't lie !!"

I think those two ideas (imasara koukai), as well as "responsibility" is the turning point in all of Retake

Absolutely agree. These are some of the key messages that the manga never hesitates to repeat to enhance the effectiveness. And it is pretty consistent throughout the whole piece.

Another thing I love RT is how the author thought out a lot of matching scenes or dialogs from different parts of the manga. It is a lot of fun to see or read the contrasting pictures or dialogues, and noticed the hints the author put in here and there to elaborate the story. And the story rewards repeated reading -- after going through it a few rounds, I think the story manifests itself much clearer and the message also came out clearer as a result.

As mentioned, I may check out Rebuild someday -- perhaps after the 3rd movie came out. But I don't think it would surpass this RT in its positive message and achieved a satisfactory ending better. I have a feeling that Anno never wants to give the fans what they want. This time he may want to deliberately over-compensate the darkness and hopelessness of EoE, and produced a trivialized and "ok so you want all these things -- fan service, great mecha, all moe characters, happy go lucky ending? Here you are!! So don't blame me any more!" attitude. At the end, Eva is his creation. He can do want he wants and it would be considered "canon". OK I digress here....

yes, I think your Imasara, koukai and sekininkan concepts are the key to understanding Retake as a whole, but it brings greater insight for After in particular, symbv.

Again. I cannot agree more. I think this should be the right way to look at the RT manga. I am sure there will be plot holes and things unexplained in this manga (e.g. where is the Lilith body after RT4? Where exactly did Adam go? ) but so is the original. I believe the major threads hang together pretty well without major holes. It is a bit unfortunate that it had to start its life as a H doujinshi. Although I really don't mind the A/S bed scenes -- I must admit that while the sex is necessary in the plot, the depiction of it is indeed gratuitous. On the other hand, I see a lot of real love and attention the author put into the work. Given that doujinshi usually sold by how intense the H scenes are depicted, Kimimaru really took a gamble by putting the minimum amount of H stuff so as to ensure the sales, while poured his heart out to come up with the plot and draw out page after page of non-fan-service pictures to create a long story that he believed in. I think he deserved all Eva fans' eternal gratitude. His adult doujinshi background notwithstanding.

[JimmyWolk]

This is not the case. The child was more like a phantom being generated by the baby in Asuka and sustained by Asuka's soul. This is why just before Kami-chan disappeared she said "mama ni kariteta takaramono.. yatto.. kaese.." (I finally...return...the treasure I borrowed from Mama). and then Asuka returned to herself immediately afterwards. This means she is returning her soul and consciousness back to Asuka after giving up her own existence. She had to also go because as it stood at that time, Asuka's child was also an Angel. When Angel-Shinji and EOE-Asuka picked to end their existence on that world, they brought down all Angel existence from that world.

I admit, when they said that the Angel vanished after transporting Asuka out of EVA-02, I didn't think of the possibility that it might have left a "normal" embryo behind. It's an interesting idea, and would indeed made sense here, but there's at least one thing that doesn't match up with it:
In the dream world of RT4, Asuka most likely didn't have an abortion. Still, they only got a baby three years after the events. Unless it was the longest pregnancy in history, it still makes me inclined to think that if anything, she returned to the womb in the end of RT4.

More evidence is in AFTER, 1) Asuka told Shinji on school ground "demo ritsuko ni tanonde taigen ni modoshite morattakara, mou sonna sekinin kanji nakute ii wayo" (but since I asked Ritsuko to return my body back to original state, you do not need to feel like taking responsibility) It is clear that Asuka asked Ritsuko to help her have an abortion.

And then 2) Hikari asked Asuka "Asuka... doushite shujitsu nanka.. ukechatta no?" (why did you take the medical operation?) and then she went on saying (translation) "You may no longer remember what happened.. but if you do such things, Shinji would not like it, would he? ... and what would become between you and Shinji then?" This is a strong indication that Asuka only lost the baby after Re-take 4.

Well, my whole point was that these aren't clear (enough) or strong indications IMO.

Misato mentioned "three months" once in AFTER, and that was not exactly about time passed after RT4, but saying Asuka no longer living at Misato's place for 3 months, and that was also 3 days before Asuka's scheduled departure for Germany. If Asuka did not move out immediately after RT4, it could be more than 3 months had past after RT4 before Asuka flew back to Germany.

However, in the manga it never stated very clearly exactly when the abortion happened, but it should be before the scene with Asuka and Ritsuko. I believe it happened soon after RT4 as soon as Asuka was back to her former self.

{...}
This episode should happen not too long after end of RT4 because Asuka was not showing any outward sign of pregnancy. We are also not sure how much time passed between the first and the second time Shinji got hit by Asuka. Neither do we know if Asuka had aborted already when she hit Shinji the first time. The scene of Ritsuko and Asuka happened in between but that was just a discussion of the two when Asuka came to say goodbye, not necessarily mean that she had just had operation by Ritsuko (most likely not at the same time).

Also, my take is that quite some time passed between the Hikari scene and the Misato + Shinji scene, compared to all the various scenes before that. Possibly Asuka moved out of Misato after hitting Shinji the second time and then 3 months passed....

There's nothing really indicating such a passage of time within the story. The scene with Hikari, in which it's only 3 days until the departure is directly following the second punch and continues the topic of that right away. If there was meant to be such a long timespan between the two, it would be pretty naive of the author to expect the reader to make that connection. That's just not a very "natural" storyflow.

And when Asuka thus "woke up", she could not bear the thought of marrying to Shinji, much less bearing his child. So she asked Ritsuko to help her abort. And then we entered into AFTER.
{...}
If he were brave to face his emotion and stated how much her presence with him meant to him, the result would be very different. This is further proved by the explanation by Asuka to Hikari why she had to go. When Hikari asked whether it was really good for her to just leave, Asuka answered "II mo warui mo nai wayo. Nani mo kawaranai. Aitsu ga jibun ni hikeme wo kanjiteiru ijo isho niwa irarenai mono" (It is not good or bad. Nothing changes. As long as that chap could not pull himself together we can never be together) She disliked his timidity and the habit of run away from things. Although Shinji actually wanted her to stay because he loved her, he had to draw in others and made his decision one that was decided by others and he was just obliged to follow. This was what got Asuka so fired up and punched Shinji. In fact the second time Asuka punched Shinji, it was still about "sekinin" (responsibility) !!
{...}
Even in AFTER, she still had to live that facade, although with ever more difficulty. I could entirely believe that when she woke up and without any memory of the intimate relationship Shinji and she developed since Shinji came back from Sea of Dirac, she would have every reason to reject something so much related to Shinji from her body.

Again, IMO that just seems too cold-hearted for her at that point. Remember, even though she didn't remember it, she was aware that there had been something between them and still had feelings for him. But, yes, Shinji's attitude got on her nerves (not to forget hurt her feelings), so she "couldn't" be with him. She didn't want him to be with her only for the child. But kill it off just so he wouldn't have that excuse anymore? Kill it off to keep a facade she didn't believe in herself anymore? That just seems awfully harsh.


As for the theme of "regret" - that's just my problem: Neither she nor Shinji nor anyone else really seem to regret the child being gone. It's all just about the A/S relationship and the child just being some thing standing between them. Had Shinji given her a necklace, an engagement ring or something during RT that she now threw away, it wouldn't have changed much about After.


Not saying that any of your ideas are wrong, it might very well be that Kimi intended it just as you say, but to me, there's just too much that doesn't feel right, doesn't match up, so again - IMO Kimi dropped the ball with this "arc".

{Asuka not wanting to get pregnant}

Well, I think it's pretty heavily implied that she did. Even if she took precautions, the best way to ensure not getting pregnant would be not have him come inside her - yet she even locks him in. Granted, that could just be some irony with her simply not being as smart as she says. But it's not just that, she doesn't just say a passing "it's alright, I was smart enough to use protection!" while they're at it - they stop, exchange meaningful glances.
Also, in RT2 she mirrors the line in that she knew of the consequences, but didn't expect them to be so bothersome.
As for her line in the changing room, I can only go by the english translation, but given the context, I'd rather say she was afraid that she'd be calling Rei's attention on them when she'd come, his orgasm triggering hers. Not saying that it didn't happen then and there, but even if she were not to aim for it, I really don't think she minded that much/(thought) was ready for it.

I might even go and check out Eva Rebuild someday...

As Asuka fan, you might want to reconsider that... :P

[Eric Blair]

Eh, don't feel bad. It raised the bar for all of us (especially those with "redo" fics...like me).

It raised the bar for a lot of fiction writers, in my view; it went where a lot of writers dared to go, but actually tried to defy the accepted status quo that "In eva there is no happy ending" by not only giving you one, but two of them; One can argue that Retake 1-4 is actually Kimigabuchi's version of instrumentality for Shinji in a sense; a lot of his choices are based around the concept of "too late", "regret" and "responsibility" but in the end, Retake 4 takes us to where we started; the beach, Shinji and Asuka, the familiar scene of him strangling her.

The progression here seems more natural, feels more at flow; Shinji gets up, tired, spent mentally and physically after such an ordeal (instrumentality? the trip back to his universe? the trauma of having to "die", leaving behind the body he "borrowed" to be with Asuka?) and sits in the beach; Asuka stands up, says nothing and instead takes of the bandages with a backdrop of the rising sun.

The visual motif for me represents how, in a sense, since Shinji was the first one to turn from intrumentality and stay in the beach, alone, he represents the darkest moment before sun rises; the fidgety doubt that maybe he did the right call, or maybe not.

Asuka casting her bandages away against the sun represents the afirmation that this is the right choice; she is willing to shed away what reminds people of Eva (bandages, Rei, instrumentality) and look forth to a brand new future, possibly giving a chance to the idiot next to her IF he shapes up.

In the end, we see the little girl who represents humanity coming back, and the first thing she sees are the two would be saviors, sitting side by side, sleeping and with their fingers barely touching, but touching none the less.

It's not abstract, it's not subjective; it's plain and simple; those two found some common ground, on their terms.

I thought the epilogue of after was still in Universe B aka Manga-verse, just A/S as adults with Kami-chan. Though it could always be just another universe too.

Well, I have always assumed it was a different universe given the parting quote from Kimi; besides, Asuka "got rid" of Kami; so it would make sense that this is a "splinter" future from universe B (after) where Kami was born.

I have no problem with kami being the "second child" from the Ikari-Soryu household in universe B, though.

[symbv]

there's at least one thing that doesn't match up with it:
In the dream world of RT4, Asuka most likely didn't have an abortion. Still, they only got a baby three years after the events. Unless it was the longest pregnancy in history, it still makes me inclined to think that if anything, she returned to the womb in the end of RT4

I would argue that most likely after RT4 Asuka had an abortion, and at least by the time Asuka met Ritsuko in AFTER, Asuka already did not bear any baby inside her body. I think Hikari's words as well as Asuka's words (after punching Shinji's the second time) were very clear about this.

There's nothing really indicating such a passage of time within the story. The scene with Hikari, in which it's only 3 days until the departure is directly following the second punch and continues the topic of that right away. If there was meant to be such a long timespan between the two, it would be pretty naive of the author to expect the reader to make that connection. That's just not a very "natural" storyflow.

At least the author put down 3 months as a reference point. The only unknown here is when Asuka moved out of Misato's place. My take is that it was after Asuka punched Shinji the second time. And I would put the Hikari's scene to be close the 2nd punching scene because the link is stronger there. Though I agree that perhaps a few more blank frames could highlight which part is a longer break than other places.

Again, IMO that just seems too cold-hearted for her at that point. Remember, even though she didn't remember it, she was aware that there had been something between them and still had feelings for him.

Maybe, but I could imagine that after Asuka seeing how unwilling Shinji wanted to face up to his feeling and pull himself together, she got all fired up and wanted to get away from her relationship with Shinji. The baby would be just an obstacle. I must say that here the concept of abortion did not come up as a life and death issue, like in America. At least in this manga world it seems that abortion of early pregnancy is not such a big deal.

As for the theme of "regret" - that's just my problem: Neither she nor Shinji nor anyone else really seem to regret the child being gone.

Same as above. The concept that this manga seems to be saying is that as long as Asuka got pregnant again, it is alright, even the Kami-chan, who manifested from the first embryo (following my theory, would be aborted), would somehow come back and be born as Asuka's child when she got pregnant by Shinji again later.

IMO Kimi dropped the ball with this "arc".

I can accept that if the idea that I mentioned above -- that early abortion is still alright as long as the mother got pregnant again -- is hard to accept, the story would be quite discomforting.

Well, I think it's pretty heavily implied that she did. Even if she took precautions, the best way to ensure not getting pregnant would be not have him come inside her - yet she even locks him in.

I am not sure that she locking him in means she wanted to get pregnant. (actually I just took a look at the manga again, Asuka did allow Shinji to come inside but she did not lock him by her legs or arms) The hint is that she also enjoyed having sex with him, and she liked the idea of him ejaculating inside her body. By taking good preparation, she could have the fun but avoided the undesirable outcome.

But it's not just that, she doesn't just say a passing "it's alright, I was smart enough to use protection!" while they're at it - they stop, exchange meaningful glances.

I checked the manga again, I did not see Asuka and Shinji exchanging meaningful glances after his ejaculation. Asuka did look at Shinji in the eye when she spoke about having preparation, but I understand it as a person looking at the face of another person when speaking to him. I do not see any special meaningful glances. The reason why they stopped is that Shinji was caught by surprise by how much prepared Asuka was before approaching him.

Also, in RT2 she mirrors the line in that she knew of the consequences, but didn't expect them to be so bothersome.

Just checked RT2, but could not find what you mentioned above. Wonder which part in RT2 Asuka mentioned knowing the consequences?

As for her line in the changing room, I can only go by the english translation, but given the context, I'd rather say she was afraid that she'd be calling Rei's attention on them when she'd come, his orgasm triggering hers.

Indeed in RT2 one frame did have Asuka thinking that. That is in the frame when behind the locker where Asuka and Shinji stood and having sex, Rei was changing. Asuka said "Ya..me.. Kituskarecha.." (St..op..We will be noticed..) But the frames after that had Asuka thinking the words I translated -- a heavy hint that she was aware that if Shinji ejaculated inside it could become a concern to her. Only after that is the orgasm scene, and there was nothing but heavy breathing sounds there... There was not words about Shinji's orgasm triggering hers, although the pictures did seem to make her look like having had an orgasm.

[Eric Blair]

So birth year is a public attribute in the profile... Well, really don't want to flout my age, as I have a feeling that I am the oldest chap in this forum...

The "old man of the forum" award goes to Mr. Tines, first and foremost; I think you might be the second (which if fitting given your leading lady preference); you can also edit out your age so it doesn't show in your profile, I think.

You mean this one?

Yep, that's the one; the main RebuildRetake thread; this was a question made that somehow hasn't been merged to the main discussion body.

somewhere outside evageeks forum?

If memory serves me right, sage once said Rebuild Retake had it's own thread in the lemontastica forums, which was where the scanlation saw birth; it would be awesome if someone had those archives and could put them somewhere simply to see the history unfold.

could part or all of it ported to the wikipedia proper? Or there is policy of restricting the volume of fictional contents to take up space in wikipedia?

As far as I know there is no limitation to making an article on wikipedia, it just needs to be approved by the editor and you need to get an account (free) to do so.

I could also help in writing up summary of re-take too. How far have you gone so far?

Not far enough... I started a brief analysis, posted it and then got swamped with several other writing projects.

I had at first thought Retake after was nothing more than Kimimaru cashing the cow, since it added nothing to my main questions Retake left me with, such as who was the little girl, and whatever happened to Shinji and Asuka,, but after reading it, I have to admit it became a guilty pleasure of mine, the story was awesome for a one shot, the flow was nice and the characterization kept itself in tune to what we had read in Retake, and what had deviated from the original series.

I cannot agree with you more that the reason why After made a big contrast was because eva fans as a whole seem to think that in eva there should never be a happy ending, a bad end is always needed, and required in some cases, for you to have validity as an eva fan; After went against all that, it challenged the perceived norm that the story to be told had ended in 04, is challenged the abstraction that Shinji would run away from responsibility and Asuka would push people away out of fear; they do, but near the end we can see that those walls they had built begin to crumble and fall, maybe it was Misato catalyzing it, and taking the first step (because really, the best scene there for Misato and Kaji is Misato riding that tank out of nowhere straight into Kaji just as he is about to leave only to jump into his arms, and you don't need to be a writer to imagine what she's telling to him).

Whatever the case was, Shinji decides to act too, and Asuka slowly begins to forgive herself, top let go of the pride that was the only thing left of the old Asuka Langley Soryu; the airport scene was touching, and incredible and it took my breath away when I saw it; the follow up scene prompted me to write something, ANYTHING to get the feelings out of my system; and the epilogue was the cherry on the cake; it was the last blow needed for Asuka to truly walk the extra smile and let go of the "regret" and "too late".

And seeing her walk out, determined to fly back to Japan to settle things with the idiot once and for all, only to have said idiot in front of her, as if by providence was amusing, humorous and heartwarming at the same time; one of those moments where you don't need words, only the image is needed to convey a myriad of emotions... all powerful, all at once.
I will side step the rebuild mine here and say simply you should consider things very careful while seeing it; it's not for every fan, and if you are, like me, an Asuka fan first and foremost; the kind of fan who saw and fell in love with Eva because of Asuka, there is a very high possibility you might feel cheated.

But best of luck either way.

It is a bit unfortunate that it had to start its life as a H doujinshi. Although I really don't mind the A/S bed scenes -- I must admit that while the sex is necessary in the plot, the depiction of it is indeed gratuitous.

Everyone has their own opinion about the sex scenes; I personally think that while cheesy, and gratuitous and graphic in nature, they serve to explain a lot of depth about the characters that words alone cannot convey; the action in itself of physically showing someone you love them is very strong and moving; I cannot state here enough that sex is something needed here to explain that because it's a human reality in the sense of loving someone so much, so hard and so deep that you show them with your body, and it only makes the affirmation of "I'll try to live happily for you" even much more poignant and powerful.

Then again, like I have stated before elsewhere, I am an unabashed romantic, so I might be seeing the world through rose -colored lenses.

[JimmyWolk]

I would argue that most likely after RT4 Asuka had an abortion, and at least by the time Asuka met Ritsuko in AFTER, Asuka already did not bear any baby inside her body. I think Hikari's words as well as Asuka's words (after punching Shinji's the second time) were very clear about this.

Uh... not sure how that relates to what I've said. ^^;
The dream world EoE-Asuka puts up for Shinji in RT4 to have him live a happy life is set in a future three years later. In that, Asuka had apparently lost her child too though, as she didn't have one until then, three years later.
So I was arguing that the Angel-child didn't leave an embryo behind when it manifested as Kami-chan; that the child was lost there, thus it was also lost in that possible future-dream world. So Kami-chan would have not only return Asuka's mind, but also the embryo to her womb (after the dream!) for the abortion to happen.

At least the author put down 3 months as a reference point. The only unknown here is when Asuka moved out of Misato's place. My take is that it was after Asuka punched Shinji the second time. And I would put the Hikari's scene to be close the 2nd punching scene because the link is stronger there. Though I agree that perhaps a few more blank frames could highlight which part is a longer break than other places.

But Asuka also mentions that she's leaving in three days in that scene with Hikari, so it can't be closer to the punching scene than that with Shinji and Misato.

Maybe, but I could imagine that after Asuka seeing how unwilling Shinji wanted to face up to his feeling and pull himself together, she got all fired up and wanted to get away from her relationship with Shinji. The baby would be just an obstacle. I must say that here the concept of abortion did not come up as a life and death issue, like in America. At least in this manga world it seems that abortion of early pregnancy is not such a big deal.


Same as above. The concept that this manga seems to be saying is that as long as Asuka got pregnant again, it is alright, even the Kami-chan, who manifested from the first embryo (following my theory, would be aborted), would somehow come back and be born as Asuka's child when she got pregnant by Shinji again later.

Admittedly, my own views might "taint" this too much. I'm no religious fanatic, going how abortions are wrong and no one should have them - but I'd certainly be against it if it'd be my own child. And it's hard for me to imagine that anyone could really just brush it aside like that; that even people who absolutely don't want children and decided for an abortion right away would have no doubts and regrets at all.

I can accept that if the idea that I mentioned above -- that early abortion is still alright as long as the mother got pregnant again -- is hard to accept, the story would be quite discomforting.

Well, the story as whole I like, it's just this angle that irks me. That's why I'd rather go pretending that she just got herself stitched up and everything's great. ;P

(actually I just took a look at the manga again, Asuka did allow Shinji to come inside but she did not lock him by her legs or arms)

Ehm, first panel on that page clearly shows her legs clamping around him.

I checked the manga again, I did not see Asuka and Shinji exchanging meaningful glances after his ejaculation. Asuka did look at Shinji in the eye when she spoke about having preparation, but I understand it as a person looking at the face of another person when speaking to him. I do not see any special meaningful glances. The reason why they stopped is that Shinji was caught by surprise by how much prepared Asuka was before approaching him.

Well, yeah, "meaningful glances" might be a bit much. But why would he be that much caught by surprise that she thought of protection? Guys in his position would just think "Really? Oh, that's great!" and go on. But just look at him in that last panel - that's not the look of someone who just got an okay to come in her, it's not lustful, sex-crazed, passionate - it's a look of "She's willing to let this go that far?"

Just checked RT2, but could not find what you mentioned above. Wonder which part in RT2 Asuka mentioned knowing the consequences?

In the scene with her (and later Rei) in the bathroom, where we get the first hints that she's pregnant.

Yep, that's the one; the main Rebuild thread; this was a question made that somehow hasn't been merged to the main discussion body.
{..}
If memory serves me right, sage once said Rebuild had it's own thread in the lemontastica forums, which was where the scanlation saw birth; it would be awesome if someone had those archives and could put them somewhere simply to see the history unfold.

Anyway, I don't quite remember if the translation turned up there first, that went mostly over 4chan/asl I think. I was introduced to RT itself there, but the translation was still a good way off.

[Mr. Tines]

actually tried to defy the accepted status quo that "In eva there is no happy ending"

On that note:

Hi, my name is Shinji Ikari. I am a cipher, a symbol, a representation of human futility and impotency--creative impotency, I mean. Thanks to the narrow-minded dedication of the director and his writing staff, I am the locus of a squandered plot. I anthropomorphize failed character development. When you loathe me, it's supposed to be art. But let's be honest, that's bullshit spread over a sewage sandwich. From a characterological perspective, the climax fails spectacularly. The primary conflicts are completely abandoned in exchange for a philosophically shallow, symbolically incoherent ending. Most of the other protagonists are killed or driven nuts, because death is easier to write than emotional maturation. And I think our budget was running out.

Did you know that a hentai circle produced a doujin series with a better ending?

Yeah. I'm sorry. At least you can pretend that I scored the emotionally vulnerable German chick. I mean, shooting fish in a barrel, and somehow I missed...

[Eric Blair]

On that note:

On that same note:

I won't stand for this Tinesian bulls***.

But other than that, yes; we have all here (at least the ones who read and liked the story) that Retake seems to have a better ending (and an easier one to understand at least compared to EoE) than the other media.

Just goes to show that sometimes fan-made productions are better than a producer's own fanfiction.

Rebuild

Wow... The OMA must've turned my brain into mush...

[oOoOoOo]

Concerning the sex scenes, I found them quite refreshing. All of my personal relationships have involved a lot of sex, often arbitrary sex with no relevance to the plot that is my life. So, it is nice to see people fucking. People fuck.

Concerning abortion, terminating an early pregnancy isn't a big deal for some. I've taken "Plan B" after a confusing situation, which some would characterize as an abortion. Also, I've had friends who've had "something" fall into the toilet during the first few weeks of an unplanned pregnancy, and they did not consider it to be akin to losing a child.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Japan