English dub's influence on characters

[Incisivis]

I was also referring to the fact that when I first watched Evangelion several years ago, it was on English VHS, when I bought the tapes from a comic book store that was getting rid of their VHS stock.

I've seen the series subtitled since then, but before that happened, I'd already been formulating opinions on the series and characters. And I have never had any trouble interacting with fans who have always seen the Japanese version.

I understand what you mean by the concept of authentic experience, that even if widely differing opinions arise from the viewing of the most "pure" form of Evangelion we can get our hands on, each of those different opinions is more truthful because it comes from the "pure" experience.

Yet I still think that even if you try to put the clips side by side to make this point as the OP did, it's not that simple. No one will see everything the same way. You might presume negative reaction on the part of another viewer because that's how you see Evangelion dubbed, but it won't be the same every time.

And what happens when the opinions of someone who saw the dub first and someone who saw the sub first cross over at any point?

I can't really imagine that everyone who saw Evangelion dubbed first shares the exact same set of (presumably negative) opinions on every character. But this is a conclusion you seem to be alluding to: how did you arrive at that notion?

Because I can't see how something like that would be supported except through an extensive survey that would first involve deciding what the opinions an Evangelion dub-first-viewer are "supposed" to be, which would be an inexact science at best.

[Maximilian]

I'm not sure if it's Spike or Matt's fault, but upon my first viewing of the dub, I got less of a sense that Shinji is this tormented, repressed, struggling character and more of a sense that he's an annoying, whiny bitch.

When Asuka rushes out in front of him in ep 09, Spike's flamboyant "Ya darn rookie!" just made me cringe. I thought, quite literally, I hate this character so much. I can't relate to him at all. If I knew him in real life, I would probably set his shoes on fire, just for kicks.

The Japanese VA's work never made me cringe like that, and I was able to identify and sympathize with the character as a result. The same goes for the majority of the other characters. Now, normally I watch dubs because I'm not the kind of guy who will write Japanese suffixes after character names or use terms like "seiyu" when there's a very serviceable English equivalent (a goddamn weeaboo). However, in NGE's case, I really feel the dub detracts from a lot of the intended atmosphere of the series, such as the perception of the characters.

[Incisivis]

All I'm really saying is that it's impossible to come up with a hard-and-fast, universally applicable understanding of how people view the Evangelion characters in regards to dub v. sub.

Now, we as anime geeks have all had our moments where the quality of the adaptation effects how we look at a character. I know that when I watched the TV-edited dub of Saint Seiya, I hated Andromeda Shun, but after reading the original manga, he became one of my all-time favourite characters.

On the other hand, I became a Shinji fan, and not in an ironic, mocking way, when I had only seen the dub.

But that doesn't mean it always happens the same way each time for each person.

Blaming the fandom's general negative perception of any character largely on the adaptation is usually a slippery thing to do, too, for much the same reason.

[Oedipusfoot]

Incisivis:
I’ll put this at the top. I’ve been watching Digimon Tamers lately. I’ve been printing the English dub scripts out, and then I’ve been watching the Japanese episodes without subtitles. And I can tell you that the main character, Takato, is a completely different character in the English dub than in the Japanese version. In the English dub he is sarcastic, energized, and joking. In the Japanese version he is sensitive, dependent, naive and kind. That’s a big difference, isn’t it? This is because of the voice actors and the changed script. And there is no way to bypass the dub’s version of him. Seven years ago when I first saw it in English I saw Takato in their implied way, and there couldn’t be a mistake in perception because his character was done purposely. How I view Takato in the dub and how other people view him can’t change much because the script is blunt and the acting cannot be mistaken. There is definitely a common way to view a character that does not change much from person to person. The same is with Evangelion.
Your take sort of reminds me of a class I took once. We were studying Lord of the Flies, and we had to analyze the symbolism used. Now, there is a right way and a wrong way to view things. There may be that gray area, but most points in a novel or movie are intended. Otherwise it couldn’t exist as a work because its importance and foundation would fluctuate from person to person, and this doesn’t make sense. Some things are created like that purposely, but you can get a clear understanding of the Eva character’s characterization, even if you view the false one of the dub or the true one of the Japanese language track.

And I have never had any trouble interacting with fans who have always seen the Japanese version.

True, but a lot of the people here have absorbed the collective ideas of the people who have seen the sub.

And what happens when the opinions of someone who saw the dub first and someone who saw the sub first cross over at any point?

I haven't seen that happen a lot, but then again I haven't been here for a while. In that case, yeah, certain populations of Eva watchers can't be counted on to think in their separate ways. But I hardly see different people who watched the sub or dub think the same as each other initially. That would only come with extensive discussion.

I can't really imagine that everyone who saw Evangelion dubbed first shares the exact same set of (presumably negative) opinions on every character. But this is a conclusion you seem to be alluding to: how did you arrive at that notion?

I'll say that in a lot of places I've been, and in a lot of the people I've heard talk about Eva and especially Shinji, there has usually been some sort of negative reaction towards the characters when the dub is first watched. On evageeks it's not like this because most of the people who post are hard-core fans. They'll accept with proof an analysis of a character that they saw from a different view while they watched the dub. On other places that don't focus on Evangelion there are a lot, and I mean a lot, of people who see Shinji in a negative way. Even posters in this thread have talked about their negative views of Shinji during the dub. I've never seen an accurate portrait of Shinji detailed by someone who solely watched the dub...(okay, I admit it's dangerous to say this) because they were heavily influenced by differences in the character's personalities (due to the "renovated" script and the dub voice actors).

I didn't say everyone, or at least I didn't mean everyone. Just a lot of people that I've seen. I don't have statistics and I'm not in the mood to go searching to substantiate my views, but this has just been my sense of the average Eva dub viewer. This doesn't apply to a lot of people here.

I started out with the dub myself. I didn't think Shinji was whiny or cowardly, and plainly, I just thought he was going through difficult struggles. Though I didn't have any experience with the Japanese dialogue or language track back in the day, so I can’t really say I knew what good acting was, or how to understand a character. And I wasn’t acquainted with a lot of mainstream anime so I didn’t have the same expectations others watching Eva would.

Because I can't see how something like that would be supported except through an extensive survey that would first involve deciding what the opinions an Evangelion dub-first-viewer are "supposed" to be, which would be an inexact science at best.

I agree, but I’ve seen a lot of people (who aren’t really serious about Eva in a lot of cases and who don’t take the time to put other’s opinions together) talk about dub Shinji in the same way. It seems to be a superficial statement at best to those who haven't experienced the why behind it, but it’s what I’ve seen at other sites and sometimes over here.

[Joseph the PRPD]

I've seen the dub first and a few select episodes in Japanese. I also seen EoE subbed before I saw it dubbed.

To me I find it easier to "connect" with the characters in the English version than in the Japanese. To me Shinji seems whiny in Japanese version.

[schismatics]

To me Shinji seems whiny in Japanese version.

Yeah I got that same sort of feeling as well. In the English dub, to me, he sounded more like "this kid has fuckin' issues" insteady just being a wimp.

[Incisivis]

Whee! This is fun!

Funnily enough, I used to love Digimon Tamers, though I never engaged in any fandom interaction with it. I did only see Saban's dub, and what actually stood out to me the most about Takato was that he was a sweet little guy, a striking contrast to the previous two leads, which was why I liked him a lot more.

The difference in this case might be that you directly analyzed the scripts and could quantify a different characterization, while I simply watched the dub without much interst in the Japanese version (except knowing the characters' and Digimons' original names and Lopmon's original gender) and went with my gut response.

But if the only valid answer to a sub v. dub argument in terms of characterization is to sit down and analyze the two scripts frame by frame, back to back, and then draw a conclution, that leaves out a lot of fandom to begin with, since very few are willing to take the time to do such a thing. And even under such laboratory-like circumstances, I still think differences of opinion would emerge.

Also, do you believe that Takato's potentially more obviously differing personality was "created purposely"? Do you believe ADV did somethiong like that with the NGE characterizations? Though unfortuantely we can't ask either the Saban or ADV staff if what we percieve as the character's dub characterizations as is what their staff actually intended.

I also beleive there is a dfifference between a dub made for a mainstream chldren's audience and one for a bunch of anime geeks, even if both end up having similar problems.

And I'd argue that because LotF exists as first and foremost as a body of text it exists "as a work". That there are many people with differing viewpoints on Golding's novel doesn't change the fact that his text, what he wrote, cannot disappear.

This is different from anime, though, because we're not dealing with the different views somebody might have of the novel if they read a translation of it versus someone who can read the original English version.

And on my travelled anime-fandom roads, Shinji and his deeds and issues are the reason fans hate him, not that they find that Spike Spencer's voice is grating and made them hate the whole character.

You could argue that the voice exacerbates Shinji's problems so that a line from "tolerable" to "insufferable" is crossed, but the way I look at it, while the voice matters, the deeds and actions are still largely the same from language to language, and those are the things that fans usually have in their crosshairs in regarding Shinji, not whether his voice squeaks and squawks or not. Even the common complaint, "whiny" is about reaction as well as vocalization.

I also tend to assume that anime geeks on the internet are sub-primary or sub-only watchers, and their reactions follow.

Really, I think the only thing you could say is that even if the opinions of sub and dub watchers on characters cross over, the opinion of the sub-watcher is still "different" because it's derived from the more "pure" source. It would be a lot easier than claiming the dub and the sub create the same respective reactions in all viewers.

[Oedipusfoot]

I did only see Saban's dub, and what actually stood out to me the most about Takato was that he was a sweet little guy, a striking contrast to the previous two leads, which was why I liked him a lot more.

Whoa. I'm glad and surprised that you know what I'm talking about! Now, I can't say to go look up some Japanese episodes on youtube, but...The changes made in the Japanese script were excessive. I won't post any here, since this is an Evangelion forum (and I feel like I sort of went over a line by talking about Tamers, but oh well), but it really is a fascinating (and frustrating) thing. Just think that the Digimon you saw seven years ago is not Digimon. That's how many perspective-changing differences there are.

And even under such laboratory-like circumstances, I still think differences of opinion would emerge.

I have nothing to say other than its pretty noticeable, the difference between English and Japanese Tamers. Even without the script, if you listen to how Takato says his lines, you can see a dramatic difference.

Which brings me to Spike Spencer Shinji. It's how he says the lines that vary greatly with how Ogata says them. If I had a program like Acid I could cut different scenes together and show the difference in voice overs, I can't really guarantee that someone else is listening to how Shinji says the lines in Japanese. That's a different level, I don't know. I wonder if people who watch Evangelion with subtitles listen to the words the characters are saying, or if they just read the lines. Then this would cloud everything a bit more than how it already is. So then here the different perspective would rely on something like not being familiar with Japanese or not caring..

Also, do you believe that Takato's potentially more obviously differing personality was "created purposely"? Do you believe ADV did somethiong like that with the NGE characterizations?

I think it's often very clear what a studio or writer intended..

I think Takato's personality was changed purposely. Dave W. just added to the script what he thought was fresh and what he thought would be interesting to kids (and I must have been a pretty dumb kid because I never noticed or understood his added jokes). So then we have Takato saying lines he never said in the Japanese versions, and the topic of conversations completely changed. The fact (I'm tellin' you!) is that Takato in Japanese is completely different from the English one. Now, your argument is that it could be different for other people. However, if one were to watch Digimon Tamers in Japonais then I'm certain they'd see a difference, and probably the one I saw. This is because there is intent in the script, which guides to to think a certain way.

I also believe there is a difference between a dub made for a mainstream children audience and one for a bunch of anime geeks, even if both end up having similar problems.

Takato's just an example of huge changes made in a character that affected how I saw him.

Yup. There's a big difference between a dub made for kids and anime that was just released (forget about pbs and adult swim showings) on DVD for an older audience. I can't honestly say if Shinji's changes were deliberate, I can't tell how they directed Evangelion and what went on in the studio.

On lord of the flies: This is different from anime, though, because we're not dealing with the different views somebody might have of the novel if they read a translation of it versus someone who can read the original English version.

It's sort of similar, because Lord of the Flies has a foundation, and this foundation is where the root of meaning of all the symbolism and characterization exists. Because of this foundation, there are correct interpretations and wrong ones. By wrong ones and right ones I'm referring to ideas that don't correspond to the creator's intent and ideas. So there is always a common way to view a work. How much a dub affects the foundation or skews the meanings the foundation holds defiantly will affect how the audience views the work. And if the skewing is done with some kind of purpose, I'd have to say that the audience will experience the same skewed product, and have very similar ideas on it.

but the way I look at it, while the voice matters, the deeds and actions are still largely the same from language to language,

But the voice often characterizes the character's feelings about what he or she did. The actions aren't part of the core of the character, which is the decision process and thought behind the action. These are measured through the voice, and they are what the character is based on and truly is...

It would be a lot easier than claiming the dub and the sub create the same respective reactions in all viewers.

I wouldn't say all. Before I talked about the difference between evageeks people and someone you'd talk to about it at school, or on deviantart. But then I'm making a generalization.

I know it's a common idea that people don't often share the same views on the same subject, but anime, which can run along a simple storyline and clear characterization, can show that people in the same group have the same viewpoints on things, and they may be similar to the other group but the foundation (yup. can't think of a better word. I'm not a writer...) is different in both, and because of this so a pure "common ground" can't always be reached in Eva with dub and sub viewers...

[Joseph the PRPD]

This is the best dub vs. sub argument I have ever read.

I also believe there is a difference between a dub made for a mainstream children audience and one for a bunch of anime geeks, even if both end up having similar problems.

Examples of english dubs that had been targeted at a child audience would be:

Pokemon
Yu-Gi-Oh
Digimon
Beyblade
Medabots
Kirby
Ultimate Muscle

These are all I could remember at the moment.

[Joppu]

Japanese Ritsuko, I can't take Ritsuko seriously in her Jap. voice.

Why is that? Her dubbed voice is plain horrid!

And I do always watch the subs since English is not my first language so reading the text is easier for me to understand than spoken English. Also the sub is the original version, the dub always feels wrong. And in my country only small childrens' shows are dubbed in my language :)

What? No-one mentioned Black Hyuga yet?

[Joseph the PRPD]

^

Some of you still don't seem to be getting it. This is a decent thread that's being ruined by people talking about why they like or dislike the Japanese or English dub. Back on topic now.

[Joppu]

^

No, you answer my question first

[Mr. Tines]

@ThePRPD
Less back seat modding, please.

@Joppu
The question (black Hyuga) can be answered by scanning the thread to find the yes/no value.

For people outside the US, the effectiveness of an American dub is going to be affected by the accents. You can get away with it for something like Baccano! where the characters would be speaking like that anyway, but otherwise (well, just listen to the Comerican accents in Zettai Karen Children to get the ides). If the voices sound a bit like nails scraping on a blackboard, you're going to take a less positive attitude to the characters.

For people who have English as a second language, I can definitely understand the effectiveness of subs -- when I watch TV in France, I need the closed captions to get anything much more than the "show, not tell" elements of a drama.

[Incisivis]

Oedipus, I wasn't trying to claim that reactions between the dub and sub were NEVER different, just that they weren't different in the same way for everybody.

Just like I believe that while some of the Shinji-haters hated him based solely on their viewing of the dubbed version and Spike Spencer's performance therein, and would have liked him otherwise, that's not the entire reason why Shinji is hated.

And so many anime geeks dislike him that I have trouble believing that even the majority of dislike of Shinji can be chalked up to the English dub. A notable amount, maybe, but it can't really explain away the depth of hatred directed at Shinji.

The OP seemed to be suggested that watching the dub would make every viewer take a simpler and more negative view of the characters, while I think that itself is too simple.

And the LotF question still isn't analogous to sub vs. dub. It's more analogous to the question of whether or not you agree with the concept of "Death of the Author" Wikipedia Link. Discussion of that concept basically entails putting the author's opinions first when looking at the original source. (italics for emphasis, not anger) Translations/adaptations don't enter into the picture.

It can be connected to sub v. dub by saying that the author's essential opinions can only be seen through the subtitled version, which is essentially what I agree with, though I'd qualify it by saying that no translation can ever get close to being able to interpret something in its original language and cultural context.

But saying that all opinions that derive from the subtitled version are the correct ones regardless of the content of those opinions, which is what this argument could boil down to, doesn't exclude some of the concepts I just mentioned, namely that dub v. sub reactions are not the same for every fan. [/url]

[BrikHaus]

This whole thread is tl;dr. Or maybe it's just my ADD.

[The Invincible Shinji]

When i watched the english dub i thought of Shinji as a messed up kid and not a "whiny bitch" like so many did ( I also liked Spike Spencer's performance). Though when it came to Asuka, i wasn't sure wither we were supposed to view her as sympathetic or a royal ass ( until i got to the second half anyway). Though i haven't listened to the Japanese yet and i haven't watched the dub in a while, i thought Tiffany Grant was good albeit a little grating, but i've always thought that was because she was playing Asuka.

[BrikHaus]

The English VA's for Shinji and Gendo didn't bother me all that much. Everyone else was garbage, though.... except for Black Hyuga.

[Oedipusfoot]

no translation can ever get close to being able to interpret something in its original language and cultural context.

That's why the only way to understand is to either live in the country of origin or have a very acute understanding of the culture. Though you can say that for any book or movie from any period, even in one's home country.

But saying that all opinions that derive from the subtitled version are the correct ones regardless of the content of those opinions, which is what this argument could boil down to, doesn't exclude some of the concepts I just mentioned, namely that dub v. sub reactions are not the same for every fan.

I hope that I didn't try to reinforce that first point. And about the second point, that's true. I've already explained my stance on how dubs influence, and how a lot of people I've met up with were influenced by the dub. These don't reflect my core beliefs, and I agree with pretty much all that you're saying. If some of it came off in a weird way...I'll blame it on how I still take four hours to write a 12 page paper.

I just realized that you are Incisivis, which must mean that you're Amanda Wells. Which would then mean that you are the one who wrote a short piece on Kaworu. Wow. I think I might have something to say on that, I don't know. I haven't read it in a while. If you stick around long enough you might get a pm or something.

[Incisivis]

Yeah, this thread is getting TLR. My fault entirely, for opening the worm-can. :)

It's easy to be down on translation as an artistic concept, but I won't deny that it's no reason for us to keep working with what we have. In an ideal world, it's the closest that English-speaking anime fans can get to "purity" without requiring an excessive amount of effort, and it seems most of us have learned to live with that, so that the issue that "inauthenticity" still exists with a subtitled work isn't commented on much (probably 'cause it's the lesser of two evils and all that)

I don't particularly endorse the view that "All viewpoints coming from the Japanese version are the correct ones regardless if a dub-watcher happens to hold the same view". That opens up many more worm-cans and can be refuted in many ways, too.

But it's a viewpoint I can see others having, and which could be useful for boiling down a dub v. sub debate. I was semi-testing it out here.

As to the rest of your post, I've PM'd you. I'm not giving any deep discussion yet, just figuring a response to a comment on me, personally, wouldn't be welcome 'ere.

[Thepocalypse]

Personally, I noticed little difference. I enjoyed Spencer's take on Shinji and Tiffany Grant's voice over didn't sound annoying to me at all, so I'm a little confused as to what bothered so many people about it. Rei's voice always bothered me. It sounds off. Like she's speaking through auto-tune or something.
I watched the sub first, then the dub, and I found both to be pretty equal in quality.

EoE however...