The Giant Hand: Zero versus Sho

[Reichu]

It'd be quicker if you linked it in your last post, but please do.

"Please do" what? Post a scan? Don't have one made, and it's not all that interesting if you can't read Japanese.

It delineates the bakelite as the circular folding around the wrist here. If you don't want to believe it's Eva-00 -- well, your prerogative, I guess, but since it's flat-out stated in the production materials, arguing against it in detail is sort of a futile exercise.

What else could it be? Adrenaline isn't something people can conciously turn on and off, though they may be aware of what actions they can do to turn it on. That's why it's referred to as "getting worked up".

I'm starting to wonder if there is a total lack of agreement here regarding what "instinct" specifically denotes.

[The Abhorrent]

"Please do" what? Post a scan? Don't have one made, and it's not all that interesting if you can't read Japanese.

It delineates the bakelite as the circular folding around the wrist here. If you don't want to believe it's Eva-00 -- well, your prerogative, I guess, but since it's flat-out stated in the production materials, arguing against it in detail is sort of a futile exercise.

Unfortunately, due to a lack of a scan (nor a translation for it).... we only have your word that it's Eva-00's hand. Every single instance denoting the hand belonging to Eva-00 was made by you. I see every reason for it to belong to Eva-01 (including the image appearing immediately prior to Shinji seeing Eva-01's head for the first time), but no reason for it to be Eva-00. It just doesn't make sense.

Until a translated scan is available, the only reason to believe it's Eva-00 is because you say so. I've simply used logic, and come to the conclusion it belongs to Eva-01. Even if my theory isn't wholly proven, it makes sense. You're implying it belongs to Eva-00, which makes little sense and the evidence which would prove your claim is absent. It makes one doubt said evidence even exists.


Sorry, but you're going to have to produce said evidence or use logic to reinforce your claim that it belongs to Eva-00. I'll leave this part of the discussion at that until then.

Speaking of which and concerning the composite image, it's too distorted to discern what it is around the wrist. Even looking at the scene on DVD didn't offer any better clarity as to what it is. It could be bakelite, but not necessarily so. The absence of bakelite on the right arm of the frozen mid-punch Eva-00 isn't helping that arguement either.

I'm starting to wonder if there is a total lack of agreement here regarding what "instinct" specifically denotes.

I'll just defer to the Wikipedia article on this one.

[Reichu]

Sorry, but you're going to have to produce said evidence or use logic to reinforce your claim that it belongs to Eva-00.

If you're going to be like THAT...

http://evageeks.org/images/production/01_econte_bighand.jpg

...then I won't be all that surprised if you accuse me of putting down a bogus translation anyway. :p

I'll just defer to the Wikipedia article on this one.

How does that support YOUR claim?

[The Abhorrent]

If you're going to be like THAT...
[url]http://evageeks.org/images/production/01_econte_bighand.jpg[/url]
...then I won't be all that surprised if you accuse me of putting down a bogus translation anyway. :p

Well, the words "I'm too lazy to translate" on it isn't exactly supportive of your argument..... wait a sec.

The production image you just linked is of a LEFT hand!
The image in the series is a RIGHT hand!

So, how can you be sure it belongs to Eva-00 in that case? Assuming the production drawing is accurate, clearly something changed between when that drawing was made and when the final cut was. Changing from left to right could be done simply enough, but so could changing it from Eva-00 to Eva-01 as well.

Nevertheless, I'm getting tired of this debate; we're going in circles at best. Shall we agree to disagree on this one?

How does that support YOUR claim?

Not too sure which claim you're referring to here, but it was more or less just to state that humans have instincts. However, the matter of instinct was separate from whose hand is in the image; it was referring to how the berserk states in episodes 2 & 16 could be dismissed as instinctive.

[Reichu]

Abhorrent: I could translate the bakelite thing, but deciphering handwritten kanji I can't immediately recognize is time-consuming, and it wasn't the important part of the description. You're being terribly picky.

Flipping the storyboard around when progressing to final product isn't that unusual. (It can happen to several cuts in a row sometimes.) So this fact does not lend any direct support to your idea whatsoever.

I'm a bit disappointed that I went to that trouble and you're still blowing it off. Don't really like the rules you play by, son.

[Monk Ed]

Well, the words "I'm too lazy to translate" on it isn't exactly supportive of your argument..... wait a sec.

The production image you just linked is of a LEFT hand!
The image in the series is a RIGHT hand!

So, how can you be sure it belongs to Eva-00 in that case? Assuming the production drawing is accurate, clearly something changed between when that drawing was made and when the final cut was. Changing from left to right could be done simply enough, but so could changing it from Eva-00 to Eva-01 as well.

I try to say this as rarely as possible, but I just can't stay silent any longer:

Oh come on.

Why is it so hard to believe that it's Eva-00's hand, to such a degree that you would rather disbelieve a storyboard with Anno's own hand-written notes on it? (And changing whose hand it is would be a pretty freaking important change.)

Why would Eva-01's hand be sticking through a wall anyway, as it clearly is in that picture you linked?

[symbv]

Well, the words "I'm too lazy to translate" on it isn't exactly supportive of your argument..... wait a sec.

It just said "surrounding it is special Bakelite that has solidified in haste".

If the storyboard said it was Eva00 then I think the evidence is heavily tilted towards it was really Eva00 not Eva01. Unless I see other evidence besides mere deduction from the the flow of story I would take the hand as Eva00's.

[The Abhorrent]

Why would Eva-01's hand be sticking through a wall anyway, as it clearly is in that picture you linked?

The reasoning was split from another thread, discussing how long Eva-01 was sentient and the image was used as evidence to support that. Assuming that it was Eva-01's hand, it's reaching out to Shinji (for obvious thematic reasons). Then the same right hand reaches up to protect him from the falling debris. In that context, it makes perfect sense.

This theory assumes the hand isn't sticking out of the wall, it reaching out to touch the glass which is containing the purple fluid (how else are you going to get a relatively smooth wall of purple?), the same fluid which Eva-01 is seen in the next scene.


If it's Eva-01's hand, it's subtle foreshadowing.
If it's Eva-00's hand, it's an unrelated background event.

Take your pick.

[Monk Ed]

This theory assumes the hand isn't sticking out of the wall, it reaching out to touch the glass which is containing the purple fluid (how else are you going to get a relatively smooth wall of purple?), the same fluid which Eva-01 is seen in the next scene.

Unfortunately, it is clearly sticking out of a wall. Look at the wrist. See the ripples in the solid material?

If it's Eva-01's hand, it's subtle foreshadowing.
If it's Eva-00's hand, it's an unrelated background event.

Take your pick.

What kind of reasoning is that? That same reasoning could be used to justify the idea that it was Misato who shot Kaji, or just about any theory.

That's also a pretty false dichotomy you've set up there -- Eva-00's hand is not some meaningless background detail.

[Travosaga]

This is where I have to say people are reading too much into it. I get the impression that the hand was added for effect without much thought into it. I doubt they expected people to analyze it, they just wanted to show this creepy giant hand in the background that Shinji was completely oblivious to.

At least that is my thinking.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Regarding the recent debate: Storyboards say it's Eva-00 (which is meant to foreshadow the accident with Rei), so it must mean it's Eva-00. Pretty simple, I thought.

[Reichu]

I get the impression that the hand was added for effect without much thought into it. I doubt they expected people to analyze it, they just wanted to show this creepy giant hand in the background that Shinji was completely oblivious to.

As mentioned, the storyboard specifies that it's Eva-00's hand, fixed in place with special bakelite.

As soon as episode 02, we see the Eva that the hand is connected to (during Ritsuko and Gendo's conversation in the trashed control room). The storyboard here uses the exact same language when talking about 'solidified special bakelite', as well.

Not sure what's so hard to believe about them knowing in advance that Eva-00 went crazy, punched through a wall, and was frozen in place with plastic; and choosing to foreshadow the eventual flashback by showing us brief glimpses of the activation incident's aftermath. Of course the hand isn't something you're meant to "analyze", though it's probably supposed to register on some level and make you wonder about why there's a giant hand bursting through a wall that the two adults don't seem worried about.

The "analysis" is only the result of people admitting that they think it belongs to Eva-01, being told it's actually Eva-00, and trying to justify their first impressions with intricate -- yet ultimately futile -- arguments.

[The Abhorrent]

As mentioned, the storyboard specifies that it's Eva-00's hand, fixed in place with special bakelite.

Here's a quick challenge for you
What evidence outside the storyboard do you have?

You're relying on a jotted down note, while everything else points to the contrary. One storyboard note that includes a mirror-flipped image (and as such, can safely be assumed to not be the final decision) against everything else does not make for much of an argument.

[Sachi]

Storyboards say it's Eva-00 which is meant to foreshadow the accident, so it must mean it's Eva-00. Pretty simple, I thought.

One storyboard note that includes a mirror-flipped image (and as such, can safely be assumed to not be the final decision) against everything else does not make for much of an argument.

OH, MY JEEBUS, THEY USED A RIGHT HAND INSTEAD OF A LEFT HAND. ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE INVALID.

[symbv]

Here's a quick challenge for you
What evidence outside the storyboard do you have?

You're relying on a jotted down note, while everything else points to the contrary. One storyboard note that includes a mirror-flipped image (and as such, can safely be assumed to not be the final decision) against everything else does not make for much of an argument.

To me the storyboard is sufficient evidence enough. Particularly compared to whatever you came up with to support the hand not being from Eva00.

[The Abhorrent]

OH, MY JEEBUS, THEY USED A RIGHT HAND INSTEAD OF A LEFT HAND. ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE INVALID.

How so are they invalid, hmm? Tell me why.

I have sufficient reason to doubt the storyboard was the final version of the cut because the hand was changed. Who isn't to say Anno didn't change his mind about which Eva the hand belonged to between the time when the note was written and the final shot was made? After all, he made the decision to change it from left to right. So why not Eva-00 to Eva-01?

All that can be said is that the right-handed version is the final and definitive version while the left-handed storyboard was not the final version. Because changes were clearly made, the storyboard is not the absolute. Unless there is MORE evidence to support as Eva-00.... well, how can you be sure?

[Reichu]

Here's a quick challenge for you
What evidence outside the storyboard do you have?

(1) You refuse the identification in the storyboard as evidence.
(2) You refuse to acknowledge the fact that the hand is going through a wall and that the wrist is clearly surrounded by ripples of material [that is identified as "special bakelite" (same stuff Eva-00 is encased in) -- but, wait, that's in the storyboard, so it doesn't count...].
(3) You would also probably find some way to argue around the fact that they aren't even close to Eva-01's Cage at this time. After they finish taking the diagonal lift-thingy UP (in the process going past the FRONT of some Eva, ultimately ending up above its RIGHT side), they get on a hovercraft and traverse a bunch of coolant-flooded cages and ultimately approach Cage 7 from the LEFT side.

I mean, seriously, man. I'm not playing with you anymore. :p

[symbv]

^ Reichu, I guess if one wants to doubt, then he can always find ways to doubt. Perhaps we should just leave those people alone to themselves.

I mean, the most important part of a storyboard is the story. The key animation came even after that. Changing the owner of the Eva hand is a much bigger change than changing between left and right hand.

[The Abhorrent]

(3) You would also probably find some way to argue around the fact that they aren't even close to Eva-01's Cage at this time. After they finish taking the diagonal lift-thingy UP (in the process going past the FRONT of some Eva, ultimately ending up above its RIGHT side), they get on a hovercraft and traverse a bunch of coolant-flooded cages and ultimately approach Cage 7 from the LEFT side.

Took you long enough to find a good reason, but I'm not wholly convinced on the matter. Meh, I'm just as tired of this debate as you are.


But at your request, one reason to dismiss the argument:

Misato was lost. but the quickest way somehow involved going by the elevator infront of the cage where Eva-01 was being held and taking another horizontal lift (off-camera) to the far left to access the cage. Why only the left? No way around to the right, or the raft was only on the left for some reason.

Also, the lift infront of the cage is paired with another diagonal lift going in the opposite direction. It could be the usual crossing-escalator setup seen all over the world. You pass the other lift (going the other way) at the halfway point.... then again, how do we know the other lift is going exclusively for going down? Could this lift be centered on one of the cages? Who knows, and it doesn't explain why they would have to go far to the left again.


There's still some uncertainty for it belonging to Eva-00, but I'll leave it at that. So, agree to disagree?

[Sachi]

So, agree to disagree?

No. While I implied it earlier, symbv brings up an important point to your refusal to accept the storyboard. One minor animation detail, such as the switching of the left hand to right, is not sufficient reason to disregard the storyboard. It's rather inconsequential, and if you've ever seen any storyboard you would know that little, insignificant details like this get changed all the time while having absolutely no bearing on the resulting scene. Often times it's not even a conscious change, and it's left to the interpretation of the animators.

However, a change in a huge detail, such as the change from one Eva Unit to another, is tremendous. It would change the entire meaning of the scene, and there's no evidence to suggest that such a change had been made.

Your arguments are all hypothetical (if even that), while ours are based on the few facts that surround this particular case. And it is completely unreasonable to deny evidence simply because the hand was changed. The facts say it's Unit-00, and no theory has yet to come up with sufficient evidence to topple it. Come up with actual evidence to support your theory, and maybe more of us will be inclined to buy into it.