Gendo in EoE

[the_seventh_child]

I just know things okay! Blah!

nice argument... :roll:

[Dark FireStar]

Do you just like trying to prove me wrong??

[the_seventh_child]

Do you just like trying to prove me wrong??

just to end this i believe that the screenshots Reichu gave were pretty good and they indicated clearly that Gendo was not smiling..

[Dark FireStar]

So thats a yes?


I still say that he smiled!

[Reichu]

I still say that he smiled!

And some people say that the Holocaust never happened. That doesn't make them right.

[MAGI]

Look, just accept that Anno intended us to fight over whether he was smiling or not.

And look, Reichu. Let me just ask the question. Why, of all things, did Yui (supposing Unit-01 represents Yui) decide to eat him in the first place? She could have crushed him like Kaworu or whatever your imagination can think up, but she ate him. There has to be something symbolic in that action other than rejection.
Unit-01 can eat Zeruel, but I don't recall her eating its core. It ingested its S^2, but it didn't come out the other end, eh? I see Unit-01 having the "capicity to absorb"; okay, I weird phrase I made up for this occasion. It assimilates to what it takes in. The reason why we don't have the souls of all the vegetables we eat and all is because we are not like Unit-01. As we know, Unit-01 is very much a clone of Lilith, and guess what? Lilith can become like whatever enters it. Rei went in, and we get a Lilith-Rei.
That explains why Gendou's glasses were left behind, at least. We don't want a Unit-01 walking around with a weird pair of perscription shades. 8)
So, eating Gendou's head is how I see Yui accepting him. His retribution is the eating part. We have three healthy Reis behind him who could have taken him to Yui the easy way, but he goes through the way he sees fit. And he smiled.

[Dark FireStar]

Yes YES

thats what I was thinking of but dident want to make anymore of fool of myself by saying it lol

[Reichu]

Look, just accept that Anno intended us to fight over whether he was smiling or not.

Why are you so insistent that this is a matter of contention? The screenshots don't support it, the script doesn't support it, human facial expression study doesn't support it, and the way smiles are drawn in anime doesn't support it. You're just seeing what you want to see.

Why, of all things, did Yui (supposing Unit-01 represents Yui) decide to eat him in the first place?

SUPPOSEDLY? I fail to see how this is debatable. EVA-01 doesn't "represent" Yui; EVA-01 is Yui. Consider it a rebirth.

She could have crushed him like Kaworu or whatever your imagination can think up, but she ate him.

It's only "eating" if she swallowed.

Unit-01 can eat Zeruel, but I don't recall her eating its core. It ingested its S^2

The S^2 was in Zeruel's core.

but it didn't come out the other end, eh?

Yui ate considerably more than just Zer's S^2. I'm sure it came out sometime, and Gainax simply spared us on that one.

I see Unit-01 having the "capicity to absorb"

Correct; she can assimilate foreign biomass for her own purposes.

As we know, Unit-01 is very much a clone of Lilith, and guess what?

EVA-01 is as Adam as any other Eva; Lilith just gave birth to her.

Lilith can become like whatever enters it. Rei went in, and we get a Lilith-Rei.

I think you're simplifying the real reason that happened.

That explains why Gendou's glasses were left behind, at least.

How does ANYTHING explain why they were lying neatly on the floor? The glasses went straight into Yui's maw, along with the rest of Gendo's upper body.

So, eating Gendou's head

Not just head; entire upper body.

is how I see Yui accepting him. His retribution is the eating part.

Gendo does not get what he wants:

Yui:
Yes. Humans can only live on this planet, but Evangelion can live forever... together with the human soul that dwells within it.

(EVA-01 and the Lance of Longinus float in space)

Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives. It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives...

I.e., Yui is alone. I.e., Gendo is not with her.

I.e., Gendo was rejected.

[MAGI]

The screenshots don't support it, the script doesn't support it, human facial expression study doesn't support it, and the way smiles are drawn in anime doesn't support it.

The screenshots don't tell us, the script doesn't tell us, human facial expression doesn't tell us and drawing style doesn't tell us whether he was smiling or not. We, as the audiece, tell outselves that. There are people who see Gendou smiling, like I do, and people who don't like you. I can't deny what is shown, but I see they are showing a smile. At least Dark FireStar and me see that. The screenshots support Gendou's smile for us. The script doesn't support Gendou as grimacing, either. The human facial expression studies doesn't disapprove that either, it tells us, only, that Gendou's orbicularis oculi is contracted. The way smiles are drawn in anime doesn't rule out Gendou's smile.
There must a very good reason why some people see Gendou smiling, and some who don't...

You're just seeing what you want to see.

And that's probably the reason. You see it the way you say it is. Often, smiles and grimaces are not disputed between humans, but it has, today. Don't tell me Anno made Gendou have that face by accident.

I fail to see how this is debatable. EVA-01 doesn't "represent" Yui; EVA-01 is Yui.

Things are not always certain. For now, I see that Unit-01 represents Yui, but I can't be sure enough. I'm being cautious, alright?

It's only "eating" if she swallowed.

I think Yui swallowed. And you've dodged my original question; why did she decide to bite him in the first place, of all things?

The S^2 was in Zeruel's core.

Quote from EvaOtaku:

Common misconception is that the Core is the equivalent to the S2 Organ/Engine. This is incorrect. The S2 is never seen in the series.

And even so, there was no statement that the core was the soul. We don't have a physical core, ourselves. The soul resides in that of a human body, and the human body can be replaced, but we still have our souls. Souls are not physical. Further more, the angel was dead.

I'm sure it came out sometime, and Gainax simply spared us on that one.

We don't know.

Correct

Good.

EVA-01 is as Adam as any other Eva; Lilith just gave birth to her.

Fine, I was being hasty, there. A little too simple...

How does ANYTHING explain why they were lying neatly on the floor? The glasses went straight into Yui's maw, along with the rest of Gendo's upper body. Not just head; entire upper body.

Are you saying that Gendou's glasses weren't really there? :?

Not just head; entire upper body.

Look, again. Only his head and a bit of his shoulders was poking up from Unit-01's fist.

I.e., Yui is alone. I.e., Gendo is not with her.

I.e., Gendo was rejected.

I never said he stayed with her. He just wanted to be with her, again. I can't be sure whether he did stay in or not, but it seems not so. However, I don't think Gendou was rejected. Yui just had the greater cause of proving humans once existed, but dropped by to get Gendou to apologise. No rejection involved.
Gendou got what he wanted. Yui got what she wanted. All's right with the world.

[Reichu]

The human facial expression studies doesn't disapprove that either, it tells us, only, that Gendou's orbicularis oculi is contracted.

All I see is a shadow beneath his eyes. Last I checked, those were always there.

There must a very good reason why some people see Gendou smiling, and some who don't...

So I guess there must be a "very good reason" why some people call the Evas "robots" and some don't.

Don't tell me Anno made Gendou have that face by accident.

His face looks pretty unextraordinary to me.

Things are not always certain. For now, I see that Unit-01 represents Yui, but I can't be sure enough. I'm being cautious, alright?

It's pretty damn certain that Yui and the Eva are one.

I think Yui swallowed.

How can you tell? The scene cuts off right after she chomps down.

And you've dodged my original question; why did she decide to bite him in the first place, of all things?

Because it looks cool.

The S^2 was in Zeruel's core.

Quote from EvaOtaku:

Common misconception is that the Core is the equivalent to the S2 Organ/Engine. This is incorrect. The S2 is never seen in the series.

[/quote]

Uh... Did you even look at the link I posted? I said that the S^2 is INSIDE the core, not that they are the same thing.

And even so, there was no statement that the core was the soul.

The soul is inside the core.

Further more, the angel was dead.

Yeah. Because Yui busted his core open.

Are you saying that Gendou's glasses weren't really there? :?

No.

Look, again. Only his head and a bit of his shoulders was poking up from Unit-01's fist.

True enough. For some reason, the script says that the lower half of his body is left standing there afterwards.

I never said he stayed with her. He just wanted to be with her, again. I can't be sure whether he did stay in or not, but it seems not so.

I thought you were just postulating that Gendo was "assimilated" by Yui?

Gendou got what he wanted.

Gendou WANTED to get chomped down on by a slobbering Eva?

[MAGI]

All I see is a shadow beneath his eyes. Last I checked, those were always there.

Seriously, that is so orbicularis oculi. The thing is protruding out. You can see the outline. Besides, why would there be shadowing, there, in the first place? How can there be shadowing, there?

So I guess there must be a "very good reason" why some people call the Evas "robots" and some don't.

Which people? Which people? The ones who watched the show or them in the anime? Former: they didn't listen to the exposition. Latter: They were never told, and because there was metal. What you said was completely irrelevant. All (healthy) humans have the instinct to determine a person's facial expression. Hard-wired stuff is hard to change, but knowledge changes all the time. You can know that an Evangelion is a robot, or you can know it isn't. But you can't change the fact that you can see a smile or not. Therefore, the fact that there isn't a consensus on Gendou's proves that either Anno wanted that to happen or that he made a mess of things. Seriously, I hope you agree to the former.

It's pretty damn certain that Yui and the Eva are one.

Look... whatever. At least that means I have a little more open mind. There's no need to talk about this because, for now, I think that Unit-01 represents Yui. Until I don't, you don't need to comment on my wording.

How can you tell? The scene cuts off right after she chomps down.

Yes, that why I didn't tell, I think. That gives you no more value for your belief that she didn't swallow.

Because it looks cool.

There can be more reason and symbolism to it than that when it comes from Anno.

Uh... Did you even look at the link I posted? I said that the S^2 is INSIDE the core, not that they are the same thing.

Yes I did. But why should I believe this Knives? And why did he say that the S^2 was in "the area around the core" instead of the core, itself?
"You're just seeing what you want to see." Could be.

The soul is inside the core.

There was no statement that the soul was in the core. Besides, we have souls, but we don't a core... Am I repeating myself, again?

Yeah. Because Yui busted his core open.

Or that Yui smashed his face.

I thought you were just postulating that Gendo was "assimilated" by Yui?

I believe that a body can only have one soul. So Gendou couldn't have been assimilated. At least not whilst he was dead. It's like a quick "hi". Yui wasn't rejecting him. His soul went in, just to be with her for a bit.

Gendou WANTED to get chomped down on by a slobbering Eva?

My God, that's exactly it! That's exactly what I've been saying since the beginning. That's why I can forgive him. He was truly apologising. He truly repented. He wanted to. He got it because he wanted to do right thing. And he was happy.
Happy enough to smile.

[Reichu]

Seriously, that is so orbicularis oculi. The thing is protruding out. You can see the outline. Besides, why would there be shadowing, there, in the first place? How can there be shadowing, there?

In older people, the features of the face start to sag, including the orbicularis oculi. So, in anime, they put more lines in the face to indicate age.



Were Gendo's eyes really squinting with a smile, I would expect more of his schlera to be covered by the lower eyelid. Indeed, in an actual smile, the iris is supposed to be sandwiched between the upper and lower eyelids, with no white visible above or below. This is how we distinguish a genuine smile from a not-so-genuine one.

No, Gendo is not an exception. The animators know what they're doing.

Bad:





Good:





In episode #05, we can even see that facial muscle you love so much at work:



Nowhere in #26' does Gendo demonstrate the iris-framing action of a true smile. I fail to see how this is a matter of contention. A slight 'bulge' or shadow below the eye does not a smile make. Believe it or not, the orbicularis oculi is also used in expressions other than smiles -- but the way it is utilized in smiles is unique, as far as I know.



You're probably still not going to believe me, so have a ball.

Yes I did. But why should I believe this Knives? And why did he say that the S^2 was in "the area around the core" instead of the core, itself?

Because he shows that Yui is eating from the core with screenshots?

There was no statement that the soul was in the core.

And there's no "statement" that Yui is in EVA-01 or that red dots represent souls. A lot of things in NGE are determined by inference.

Or that Yui smashed his face.

Since when could Angels be killed this way? Angels (Evas included) can take potentially limitless amounts of damage, provided none of it is to the core.[/img]

[Dark FireStar]

It's only "eating" if she swallowed.

So the question is "Does Yui spit or swallow?" LoL.


Nice research MAGI !

[Reichu]

So the question is "Does Yui spit or swallow?" LoL.

After resisting the urge to make that joke a few times myself, I was hoping nobody else would go for it.

Nice research MAGI !

What research?

[Dark FireStar]

Its only fair to give someone a compliment every once (in my opionon) in a while

After resisting the urge to make that joke a few times myself, I was hoping nobody else would go for it.

Its because im better at telling jokes WAHAHAHA

[MAGI]

Lol. "He relieves tension and the fear of Third Impact." Now that I think about it, it is so true.
Anyway...
See the difference in shadowing:

The second has shadowing directly under the eye, showing the sagging skin sloping inwards. The whole thing is shadowed because the actual eye was casting the shadow. The first one has only shadowed half of this. Why? Because the whole thing is coming out, and casting the shadow on the bottom half. There's a difference.

Gendo is not an exception. The animators know what they're doing.

I think you mis-read what I was saying. I was said that, for that particular scene, there, Gendou's smile/non-smile was made ambiguous. It didn't mean, the whole time, Gendou was not allowed to be drawn smiling the conventional way. I meant that Gendou's facial expression was made to be open to interpretation.

Because he shows that Yui is eating from the core with screenshots?

I think it's a little hard to tell just from the screenshots, and he never said Unit-01 was eating from the core. The closest thing he said was, again, "the area around the core".

And there's no "statement" that Yui is in EVA-01 or that red dots represent souls. A lot of things in NGE are determined by inference.

Right, I think there was a statement that Yui was in Unit-01.

her soul stayed on within EVA-01.

But, anyway, there are many things that needed inference, I know, but it requires a big step to say that souls reside in the core. What makes this obvious? You can have red dots float up to space to Lilith's Egg, knowing that everyone is returning to Lilith's Egg, you know that the red dots are souls. Some things are easy, but I don't see how they were making any move to say that souls live in cores nor S^2s.

Since when could Angels be killed this way?

In any case, it is irrelevant because we do not know the entire nature in which souls exist, reside, transfer or come in/out to existance. Furthermore, the soul probably did not get transferred into Unit-01, anyway.

Look, Reichu, I believe that there can be two ways to see the scene. That either Gendou was smiling, or that his facial expression was made open to interpretation: either smiling or not. Consider both of them and think about it.

[Reichu]

See the difference in shadowing:

Due to a difference in basic lighting. If the lighting in difference, the shadows will be different.

Right, I think there was a statement that Yui was in Unit-01.

Fuyutsuki made a vague statement in EoE that didn't even include the name "Yui". That's about the closest we got, far as I remember.

Some things are easy, but I don't see how they were making any move to say that souls live in cores nor S^2s.

The soul inhabiting the core is a pretty basic idea in NGE, actually. There are some vague insinuations that the S^2 is in there, as well.

Consider both of them and think about it.

I've thought about it more than I should have. All those screencaps for nothing! What a waste.

[Hexon.Arq]

Do you people ever quit?

[Reichu]

Do you people ever quit?

I think I'm about to. About the only thing I have left to say is this. That may be a little too explicit for some people, though.

[MAGI]

:shock: What the hell was the point of that?

Do you people ever quit?

Nah. That's the same as saying if I'm going to give up on Evangelion. In Evangelion, you watch it, make your mind up on it, and stand up for what you believe; then think about it, again. If I ever quit, then that means I've come to despise Evangelion and I don't care, anymore. I do care. I'll suggest to people what I think would be in their best interest, and I'll defend what I have to say.
However, this has been going on for a while now, and Reichu hasn't made up her mind, yet. I guess I could just give up on her; just her. Just for now.
Unless something exceptional happens.