Splitting of the Breast- How?

[defiate]

This has been troubling me for a while-

In ep16 "Splitting of the Breast" when Eva01 went beserk, how on earth did it escape from the Sea of Dirac? Isn't the Sea of Dirac supposed to be just an empty void- a whole lot of nothingness?

Furthermore how on earth did it go from the Sea of Dirac to what is supposed to be the shadow (the floating globe) and bust out of it? The physics of it are giving me nightmares.... :(

[Ryousanki King]

Let's see...we go from a void of nothingness inside of an entity (a door, if you will), to an incorporeal "shadow" in the sky that has no physical connection to the 'door'. In a nutshell, let's say the Sea of Dirac is like a big tunnel leading from one to the other. It's the only explanation I can think of that makes any kind of sense, even given that the SoD is a void, as you put it.

[Reichu]

I suck at physics, but have you tried deciphering the stuff that Ritsuko says and the scribblings on her whiteboard? You'd be able to read more of it than some of the folks around here (including the part that says "strings"). ;)

[Ryousanki King]

I suck at physics, but have you tried deciphering the stuff that Ritsuko says and the scribblings on her whiteboard? You'd be able to read more of it than some of the folks around here (including the part that says "strings"). ;)

Any chance you have a screenshot? I'll take some if need be, but the quality will ubersuck.

[DatDude]

Umm some how I dont think anno hired steve hawking to get all the physics right.

I'm sure the explination more plot based then anything else.

[defiate]

yes... my photoshop sucks.

im tired so im gona annotate it tomorrow....
but yeah, like datdude said don't expect everything to make complete perfect sense... but DO direct your attention to the diagram at the right labelled 8. i think its got something to do with how the ball and the shadow (SoD) are linked.

[Mr. Tines]

Here's a composite (click to enlarge).



The figures look like they've been copied out of journals (what Venus has to do with it I don't rightly know!); the text in the middle looks like the results of a scattering resonance calculation (infinite red-shift, a mass of 90GeV and a scattering angle (quoted as sin of, squared).

Haven't deciphered the kana.

[Reichu]

The obligatory Reichu Edition. (You know it had to happen sooner or later. ;) )


(Click for big.)

[The filename is a lie, of course. Only the middle section is a composite of C-165; right slice is taken from C-168, and the low-res left is from the Collector's Disc version of C-166. Dweebed in Photoshop until I said, "Ah, that looks good enough. (For now.)"]

The scribbling is fairly incomprehensible: I can make out two occurences of "strings", and the writing on the right of the little blackish diagram is makuro na uchuu, or "macro universe". (In Japanese, it turns up a mere 128 Google hits!) Fortunately, some of it is written comprehensibly in the Renewal DVD Notes for #16, which you can see here. (I also compiled sheets for #13~#15; just url-hack the appropriate number.)

That's your cue, defiate! I'm referring to Cut 165 (Strings) specifically. If you feel like giving this a whirl, be my guest. (BTW, do you own Renewal?)

There are very free ways of taking screenshots without getting that ugly stamp in the corner, too. ;)

[defiate]

That's your cue, defiate! I'm referring to Cut 165 (Strings) specifically. If you feel like giving this a whirl, be my guest. (BTW, do you own Renewal?)

Me? Evangelion Renewal DVD set? HAH all I got was the Evangelion Platinum Thinpak I got off amazon for $42 last X'Mas and the fan-subtitled EoE off the net. I did see brand new Evangelion renewals on sale at DVD stores in Shinjuku recently... but really I can't afford it. I'd be more than happy to buy just the books and the box that it comes in though. It's something that will make even the manliest of Eva fans weep openly....


(for those out of the loop.... )

Cut 165-
***Source***

***Original Japanese text***
リツコの背後に置かれたホワイトボードにはグラフ等と共に「ストリングスが存在し、動き回る空間」「ストリングスが動く次元」「マクロな宇宙」等の文が書かれている。ストリング（string）とは組の事。リツコは素粒子物理学における「超弦理論」を使って、第12の使徒について考えているのだろう。「超弦理論」は、重力までを含めた四つの力の統一理論として提唱された。これまでの物理学では、物質の基本粒子を点粒子であると考えるのが大前提だったが、この理論では極小サイズの組が物質の究極であると考えられる。「超」とは、超対称の意味。「超弦理論」では、宇宙は10次元で構成されているという。

***Translation ***
On the whiteboard behind Ritsuko are graphs and writings such as “strings exist and the space is moving about”, “Dimension in which strings move” and “Macro-universe”. “Strings” refer to groups. Due to the sub-atomic physics involved, Ritsuko applied the Superstring Theory to deliberate about the 12th angel.

The Superstring Theory was proposed as a theory that unifies four types of energies including gravity. Before this, a major principle in physics was that a material’s basic particles were thought to be point particles, and was seen as the theory that dealt with the smallest possible particles.

“Super” means “Super-Symmetrical”. The Superstring Theory states that the universe is composed of ten dimensions.


Translator’s notes- I'm not a physicist, please don't nag me about not using the correct terms. If you want to read up on the Superstring theory, click here [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_string_theory[/url] and bid your sanity farewell. Also, I wasn't able to decipher a certain kanji from the blurred source so I found the most similar looking one and put it in the original Japanese text section. It is in bold.

EDIT: after reading my translation for the Nth time I realize that nothing will be answered until someone reads up on the Superstring Theory.
hey don't look at me I failed Algebra II/Trig twice.

[Space Penis]

The booklet for the platinum DVD section about Leliel explains it, IIRC. Some nonsense about "imaginary circuits" and suchlike.

[defiate]

so shall we class this as simply "illogical"?
I'm tempted to start a new thread called "the evangelion illogicals" and see how many similar things could be found

[Faußtin]

I'm not a native speaker, but don't you English speaking people use "void" for space? In that case, everything is quite simple. Or at least I think so.
The shadow of Leliel is a portal to the Sea of Dirac (SoD from now on). Leliel is the Angel, with a body (how else could it make a shadow?). Angels are said to be in contact with the SoD, regardless of their abilities - they gain their power from there (actually this is Zugzwang's theory, but I found it a crucial point of this theory). I guess I can say that SoD is not a Material (3D) plane, so our 3D physics naturally don't really work here, however surprisign it may sound. When Yui gained control of Unit-01, she actually "went into" the Angel.
This needs a little explanation, I guess. If there is no such thing like 3D, then there are no distances. So you actually can't go anywhere and may go wherever you want - IF you have a tough AT-Field, which can keep you alive, so that you don't grow larger than the whole universe and smaller than an electron. The SoD is in contact with every point of the three dimensional world - this is how the Angels can appear wherever they want (but don't ask why didn't they just teleported into Central Dogma! Anno wrote the book, not me!).
If you understand these, then it is easy to imagine Unit-01 manifesting in Leliel's intestines and breaking through poor feller.

[DatDude]

so shall we class this as simply "illogical"?
I'm tempted to start a new thread called "the evangelion illogicals" and see how many similar things could be found

What illogaical about it EVA01 had a bigger and better AT field and as such kicked ass.

This stuff so simple when you dont try to back engineer it

[Reichu]

so shall we class this as simply "illogical"?

Nah -- it probably makes some kind of sense if you know (A) what the original science is about, and (B) how they're "reapplying" it.

BTW, the kanji you're interested in is 紐 (string).

Also, an excerpt from #16 itself:

Misato (OFF):
So, that shadow is actually the Angel's body?

RITSUKO:
Correct. It's six hundred eighty meters in diameter
with a thickness of three nanometers.
The ultra-thin space is supported by an inwardly-directed AT Field.
The inside is an imaginary space, called a Sea of Dirac.
I think it's probably connected to another universe/space.

Misato:
What about the sphere?

RITSUKO:
It disappears when the imaginary circuit of the body closes.
The object in the sky is the real shadow.

Misato:
So the black shadow that swallowed Unit 01 is the target.

In Japanese:

ミサト「じゃあ、あの『影』の部分が使徒の本体なわけ」
リツコ「そう、直径680m、厚さ約3ナノメートルのね
その極薄の空間を内向きのA.T.フィールドで支え、内部は『ディラックの海』と
呼ばれる虚数空間…。たぶん別の宇宙につながっているんじゃないかしら？」
ミサト「あの、球体は？」
リツコ「本体の虚数回路が閉じれば消えてしまう」
「上空の物体こそ、『影』にすぎないわ」
ミサト「初号機を取り込んだ黒い影が目標か...」


I'll see if there's other stuff in any of my supplemental sources... I wonder if the Japanese NGE nerds already figured this one out? Ever look around on their sites? ;)

This stuff so simple when you dont try to back engineer it

Don't deride inquisitive minds, please. It's rude.

[Faußtin]

As I see I have totally forgotten that the hole was actually the Angel. But it doesn't really matter, but I don't know... how can a shadow bleed? How can a shadow be torn apart and paint the whole part of the city swim in blood? Hmmm...
If the shadow is the Angel, and the shadow's shadow is the real shadow... then it's AT-Field confuses the way photons go around itself... if not, then both the shadow and the shadow's shadow are the Angel.
This is the point when I shut my mouth, and wait for a miracle.

[Reichu]

As I see I have totally forgotten that the hole was actually the Angel. But it doesn't really matter, but I don't know... how can a shadow bleed? How can a shadow be torn apart and paint the whole part of the city swim in blood? Hmmm...

Perhaps because "shadow" is just a very loose term used to describe an extremely abstract concept, as Leliel doesn't exist in "space as we know it". There may well be some kind of logic behind it, IMO.

If you want to tackle Leliel serious-like, I'd recommend popping in #16 and observing her 'behavior' closely. LOTS of weird stuff to take into consideration.

The "Red Shift" part intrigues me. I can't think of how it applies to Leliel, but it seems applicable to a weird motif elsewhere in the series. Anyone notice how we're dealt both red AND blue starfields in the show? In the OP and #20, we get one transitioning into the other, as well. The Red vs. Blue theme is present in other forms, as well. I've been musing over exactly what the heck it signifies for quite some time now.

Me? Evangelion Renewal DVD set?

I was just talking about Renewal in general. The solo-issued ones do have the scrolling DVD notes in the menus and come with nifty booklets, too (although there is some degree of repetition between the two). Twas just curious.

I'd be more than happy to buy just the books and the box that it comes in though.

At the very least, "Data of Evangelion" and "Eva tomo no kai" have been scanned in full. (Whisper: Look on my site.)

It's something that will make even the manliest of Eva fans weep openly....

Hey hey... What about me?

In any case, I haven't been able to find very much among my Japanese goods. An unofficial text (which looks like it has some rather interesting writeup, regardless) has a couple of paragraphs on Leliel's "morphology" (that doesn't seem to be a rehash of what you always hear). There is also a checkpoint in the relevant Newtype Filmbook. I can scan them for you if you like; I'm far too lazy to do anything about them myself ATM. ;)

And I really want more unofficial Japanese NGE books now, for some reason. I can't help but think some of those guys have cracked items that have long boggled us (the Blood Types, etc.).

[Ornette]

“Super” means “Super-Symmetrical”. The Superstring Theory states that the universe is composed of ten dimensions.


Translator’s notes- I'm not a physicist, please don't nag me about not using the correct terms. If you want to read up on the Superstring theory, click here [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_string_theory[/url] and bid your sanity farewell. Also, I wasn't able to decipher a certain kanji from the blurred source so I found the most similar looking one and put it in the original Japanese text section. It is in bold.

Looks like Stephen Hawking DIDN'T check Anno's physics, aren't there eleven dimensions in M-String theory?

On Topic about the shadow/ball thing: There was in some other thread, maybe on another forum where someone mentioned geometric-topology stuff. But I'll generalize it here quickly. If we live in a 2 dimensional world, like, on a sheet of paper. And someone in a 3 dimensional world had a cylinder that was a circle on one end and slowly turned into a square on the other. If they passed it through the paper, the 2-d world would see a circle slowly turn into a square. If someone in a 4-d (4 dimensions of space) world had a similar object and passed it through a 3-d world, we in the 3-d world would see a sphere slowly turn into a cube. Now imagine a 3-d person passing a donut through a 2-d world, the 2-d people would see and oval expand and separate into 2 circles. They see 2 separate circles but they're really connected, even though they can't see the connection without the 3rd dimension. The connection between the shadow and the sphere in this angel can be something similar, we can't see the actual connection without another spacial dimension. Hope that makes sense.

[ChronoX]

Yes there are 11 dimentions, since the 11th dimention is where gravity truly exists and bleeds into most if not all of the others i believe. Its been a while since i saw this on the Science channel but most of that should be right

[Reichu]

I'm still confused about why this sphere (that bursts into blood and yellowish glop) is called a "shadow" -- how does that correlate with the relationship between an organic being and its shadow in our 3-D universe?

Ornette, feel free to post a 'digest version' of those Leliel-related interchanges if you're up to it... (I can't ATM.) I'm kind of curious to see the sorts of thoughts others might have.

Man, too bad ol' Zuggy can't contribute here.

[Ornette]

I'm still confused about why this sphere (that bursts into blood and yellowish glop) is called a "shadow" -- how does that correlate with the relationship between an organic being and its shadow in our 3-D universe?

I was just trying to explain how the sphere and shadow are connected, but we can't see the connection in a 3-d world.

Ornette, feel free to post a 'digest version' of those Leliel-related interchanges if you're up to it... (I can't ATM.) I'm kind of curious to see the sorts of thoughts others might have.

OK I'll try (this is going to get kinda long)

Reichu Ornette
LELIEL

- Bizarre entrance: We see a circular shadow dilate from beneath a car.
Birds stir, and sphere-Leliel is seen rising up. [#16, C-048~051] It casts
normal shadows [060~062], is Pattern Orange, and has no ATF.

- When attacked, Sphere-Leli vanishes in a red flash. [C-099] What looks
like a normal shadow begins to dilate below Sho and quickly turns
pitch-black. (= The 'true' Leliel, Pattern Blue.) Sho starts sinking, as per
usual. [102, 104]

- Shooting at Leliel's body unleashes splurts of ... hmm, now what could
that be? ^_~ [105]
> Wow, that's interesting, I've never noticed that LCL-ish liquid. Do you think
> that's actually LCL and that it's coming FROM Leliel (as it looks like it is).
> It's kinda odd that anything is coming out of that black sea in the first place.
> I'd expect the bullets to just get swallowed up and that would be the end of it.
> Perhaps this "sea" is more like a sea than a void.
>> Definitely odd, and they draw attention to it. Whether or not it is actual
>> "LCL-as-we-know-it" (that would be hard to empirically prove), I think it's
>> providing a significant hint. Big nod to the last sentence of the above:
>> "Sea" is the money word. Combine it with "LCL", and you get something that
>> sounds kind of familiar. There are various other elements to factor in, but
>> something to mull over in the meantime. ;;>


- Upon this, the sphere reappears [107]; Lel finishes swallowing Sho.

- Zero shoots at the sphere (real smart), it vanishes same as before.

- A circular shadow expands (from elsewhere) below Nigouki's feet; after she
jumps, it turns pitch-black, then sinkage. [123]

- Leliel's sights were somewhat more expansive this time [132], but "it
stopped spreading once it reached a diameter of just over 600 meters".

- Inside Leliel, Sho's visual sensors turn up empty. Plus, "No radar or
sonar reflections at all. This space must be too big."

- Tidbits from Ritsuko: "[The Angel's body is] six hundred eighty meters in
diameter with a thickness of three nanometers. The ultra-thin space is
supported by an inwardly-directed AT Field. The inside is an imaginary
space, called a Sea of Dirac. I think it's probably connected to another
universe. [The sphere] disappears when the imaginary circuit of the body
closes. The object in the sky is the real shadow." There's a bunch of stuff
on the whiteboard behind Ritsuko, including mention of strings (scribbling
in upper-right hand corner). [No screenshots at this time]

- Somehow or another, dropping "all 992 existing N2 mines" into Leliel's
center and activating the other two Eva's ATFs at the same time would
"[disrupt] the Angel's imaginary circuit for one millisecond. In that
instant, we'll concentrate all the explosive energy, and destroy the Angel
along with the Sea of Dirac that forms it." Hmm... okay.
> yeah... that's never really made any sense to me, given how they describe what
> this sea of dirac is, but I just chalked it up to "this is how things work in
> this universe". Another thing that I noted when I first saw this episode was
> that Ritsuko seemed pretty sure of herself (and her theory) seeing as how little
> she knew about a Dirac sea and the angel. She didn't seem at all worried about
> the fact that 992 N2 mines was about to be dropped on Tokyo-3, and if this plan
> doesn't work, the consequences would seem disasterous (well, I suppose if they
> didn't kill the Angel, things would go from bad to worse, but what's giving her
> the confidence that the Leliel AND all of Tokyo-3 wouldn't just be obliterated?)
> Not just that, but the higher-ups OKed the plan. "blah blah scientific jargon
> blah, and then we drop 992 N2 mines on it".


- 262: Check it out! Leliel decided not to swallow everything COMPLETELY.
(Alright...)
> This may be a blooper. Perhaps Leliel can control what it wants to swallow to
> some degree, and it wants the Evas and doesn't really care about the buildings.


- Whatever Yui does to Leli, it sends "all meters and gauges ... going off
the scale." Before anything else, Leliel's body starts to 'spontaneously'
crack open, revealing, 'beneath the black-top', something hard and red, with
a glow beyond. [265] (...Is this Leliel's core being destroyed?) Along the
'fault line', slabs of Leliel are pushed up from below (with many left
pointing skywards). [265] Leliel starts undulating as blood spurts out of
the zipper-like rips in her body -- flailing in pain, I'd imagine.
- The pattern on the 'shadow' starts 'stuttering' and the sphere turns
black; at the very end. [272] I guess that's to indicate that Leliel is
officially dead -- but it hasn't disappeared, so, er, does that mean that
the 'imaginary circuit' is still open?...
> Eva-01 is swallowed by the sea, but bursts out of the "shadow" sphere. Could
> this mean that the interior of Leliel is actually a sea of dirac? If that's the
> case, it's innards (core/S2) would be "floating" around in this sea. Thus, from
> within this sea (a completely different topological dimension) the core would
> look like a core, but if you're looking at the core from our dimension, it would
> appear to be completely different. Although the shot from [265] looks red and
> glowing (looking at the core from our dimension), I think the big thing here is
> the destruction of the core, leading to the loss of Leliel's power source, which
> leads to Leliel's inability to maintain the sea of dirac, then everything goes
> to shit. I remember somewhere (may not be on ANF) someone had mentioned the
> enormous amount of energy required to maintain a "pocket universe" (for lack of
> a better term) or, this Dirac sea. I think what we're seeing here (the sea
> cracking and crumbling, Leliel's sphere turning black, the 'imaginary circuit'
> is cut, Eva-01 busts out) is this universe crumbling away due to the energy
> maintaining it being cut off. I haven't really thought all this through or
> cross-checked what's going on with the actual screenshots (like I don't know
> why Eva-01 ended up in the shadow instead of just busting out of the sea
> itself), but that's the general idea. Leliel's source of energy is destroyed,
> the sea of dirac can no longer be maintained, and we're seeing the visual
> manifestation of this alternate universe/dimension crumbling away. The Eva-04
> incident is also another thing linking the S2 and Dirac sea.


- The stylized orb that could just vanish in a red flash before is suddenly
horrifyingly organic; and Yui seems more like she's ripping out of someone's
body than someone's 'shadow'. She punches through the outer membrane and the
contents begin to empty. [273 - check out the gobs of blood!] Some blood
trickles down the side of the sphere. [276]
- Sho pulls Leliel open and sticks her head out. [277 - easier to make out
the details when the scene is in motion] The sphere bleeds more profusely
and is starting to expand/contract [278].
- Yui pulls herself out a bit more. [279] If you look real close, you can
see the 'wound' incurred (it's yellowish). The status of the sphere is
getting increasingly f*cked up. [280] I mean, aside from the gore you'd
expect to see, there's more yellowy stuff turning up. See 281, as well. In
289, the sphere finally gives, and -- what the hell is going on? [290]
- More blacktop is trashed when Yui lands. [291] And is it just me, or is
there something strange in that 'rain'? [292]
> There looks to be a lot of yellowy fleshy bits coming out of the sphere, and
> more when there's blood and stuff raining down. There was a few frames that
> I thought I saw Eva-01's arm, maybe. Not sure what you're refering to exactly
> in [290]. Hmm, [292], that *may* just be a stylized effect for animating
> "gory-bloody-ness", as I didn't notice it until I saw [292]. That cut was in
> slow-motion and there were bits from the ground that were flying upwards,
> could this be more fleshy bloody mess that's also flying upwards?



- Not much left when all is said and done. [294]

- Don't forget the whole 'bloody reenactment of birth' thing. ^_~

Could have sworn there was more... Too bad you guys can't see the screen caps, maybe when I get around to it, I'll add links to the images.