Puella Magi Madoka Magika [2]
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- soul.assassin
- Geezer of All Trades
- Age: 47
- Posts: 4891
- Joined: Feb 26, 2010
- Location: Anywhere
- Gender: Male
- Zeldafan888
- Adam
- Age: 26
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Jul 18, 2012
- Gender: Male
Finally a good anime that going to be aired on Australian television in a while, After years of crappy children anime like Bakugan and shit like Vampire knight that been airing that channel, 1% of my Faith in modern Television restored unless they censored it for children television then Fuck them.
Now I'm going to trick my little sister since she watch sailor moon
I fakn like the Australian dub though.
Avatar: Rommel-chan
"I was born into the wrong time" - laughed the girl
「＜ゝω・）＼綺羅星☆!!／
[/size]
"I was born into the wrong time" - laughed the girl
「＜ゝω・）＼綺羅星☆!!／
[/size]
Fireball wrote:I fakn like the Australian dub though.
Further evidence that everything is better with an Australian or British accent.
- Squigsquasher
- Banned
- Age: 27
- Posts: 3671
- Joined: Feb 09, 2013
- Location: The bonus 10th level of hell
- Gender: Male
Pretty damn good show I thought. BEAUTIFUL animation, awesome music, great character designs, and an interesting story.
Also, if you look at her character, Madoka is really a female Shinji. Although this is more due to the fact that Shinji is meant to be a genderflip of the stereotypical cute but useless moeblob girl that we all love so much, which I think makes him a really interesting character. (Not saying Madoka was useless, but she is quite similar).
My favourite of the girls was Kyouko. She's a feisty redhead with a spear who kicks arse and loves food! What's not to like?
Also, if you look at her character, Madoka is really a female Shinji. Although this is more due to the fact that Shinji is meant to be a genderflip of the stereotypical cute but useless moeblob girl that we all love so much, which I think makes him a really interesting character. (Not saying Madoka was useless, but she is quite similar).
My favourite of the girls was Kyouko. She's a feisty redhead with a spear who kicks arse and loves food! What's not to like?
Here lies Squigsquasher.
2013-2017.
2013-2017.
Meguka ramble/context:
Generally speaking I tend to be very confident in my opinions and it's very rare I change my mind radically about this and that. Perhaps most often it happens with music when I suddenly "get" some album I tried to get into ealier with little success. It also helps that, in particular in comparison to film, I have less firm grasp of the medium nor do I have as concrete criterions for evaluation.
Still, when it comes to film and anime I tend to be outspoken and confident in my ability to identify and assess validity of reasons for my opinions well. I guess it may make me come off as bossy and pretentious at times but it's a price I'm willing to pay (especially since generally speaking I really don't mind people liking animoes I don't or vice versa - though I have my limits which get passed when eg. TDSA kept on insisting Mars of Destruction was good). Of course this leads to overthinking what doesn't warrant it sometimes and generally speaking my evaluation of anime has become fairly abstracted from enjoyability of viewing experience but overall I'm pretty happy with all this. Heck, it's very rare I find anime I watch not pleasant at all so if I didn't make the distinction I'd overrate just about everything. Because of the excessive attention given there's also very little second guessing afterwards and as perverse lover of lists and rankings I'm unreasonably taken by how little I have to grumble with my "history record" of watched anime aka MAL's list of completed titles.
So stuff like Meguka irritate me ever so gently. Good show I always thought but not really masterpiece - certainly no Eva killer. My original viewing experience was fairly "tainted" by the discussion and hype storm surrounding the series at time despite doing my best to make certain that didn't affect my enjoyment of show one way or another. So I felt my experience with series was hazier than most but what really was the crux was that in comparison to my usual casual confidence I had started to increasingly doubt the reasonability of my criticisms.
Of course a big factor in this was universal, almost excessively high praise by people within and outside industry who I respect and expect to know what they talk about. While Oshii's "first kami anime since Evangelion" is still rather loloshii comment in bad way when you stack enough of those re-examining my own convictions starts to look rather sensible. Extelligence higher than intelligence and all that.
Another, more important reason was that after casually viewing arguments/trolling/general derping about Madoka for two years I started to feel increasingly strongly the most common criticisms were at best one-eyed and typically way off and ill conceived. Since my own quipples with show were included in this list of criticisms of questionable value what else there was to do than take another look at the deconstruction of our life time?
Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica
scene of the year of all years
Curse of Lonely Cour
Really achieving something within the constraints of 13 episodes is never easy: the largest number of one cour tv anime are essentially commercials for much longer manga or light novel series which hopefully sell enough to warrant another season. Obviously such adaptations, no matter how good or horrid they are, are not really made with how well the series fares as singular, self-contained narrative in mind. It's also incredibly easy to run out of time while twiddling around with this and that as if the staff still had the traditional two cours to use and then resort to sudden spike in tension to give the end some feeling of finale (most offensive example being perhaps Kannagi and its worthless ep and half worth of serious drama tacked in the end after its subject hadn't been relevant after first ep).
It also forces serious consideration on how you use the cast, how large it is etc. in a way two-cour show doesn't really need to worry about. If you write it tightly one cour is more than enough (and whatever else is said of Ano Hana it does use its short lenght very well to explore its cast to extent needed and most importantly it doesn't feel like it would benefit from additional episodes) but the fact is most series don't meet the demand.
As good example of general failure with format nothing can top Angel Beat's general cramped aura and smell of catastrophe: Jun Maeda couldn't have made better argument for his inability to write in such limited time if he tried to do it intentionally!
On the other hand if one takes look at cream of the crop certain features repeat often. First of all there are series for which the exact lenght is utterly irrelevant: that is to say they don't need to be one cour shows, they could be longer (or shorter!) without significant losses. The series that fit this category are of course those that are anthologies of short stories or episodic with little overarching plot:
- Kino's Journey, Ayakashi, Mononoke, Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei, Joshiraku, Aria, Jinrui wa Suitaishimashita, Bartender, Haruhi s1 etc.
Shows of this kind could and can - most of them are adaptations of long running, mostly episodic series after all - be extended without worries and there's no reason per se why you can't consider Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei one 40+ episode show broken into separate seasons due to contingencies of television production. Haruhi's rebroadcast/"second season" turned into two cour affair entirely naturally sans Endless Eight. There's no reason for Ayakashi to be anthology of three stories in particular: it could've been two or five just as well.
Second category of great one cour series are adaptations that have source material of "just right" lenght. Not surprisingly novels that aren't door stoppers are good candidates so my picks here would be:
- Tatami Galaxy, Mouryou no Hako, Katanagatari etc.
Most good one cour shows that fare well as "singular, self-contained narratives" have this origin.
Last category would be great original tv anime of one cour lenght. This is of course the rarest group for clear reasos. For one it clearly took a while for the industry to get used to one cour format when the drift towards it overtook industry in late 90s/early 00s. Secondly original tv anime is unfortunately always in minority so it follows so are good original tv anime in general. Last but not least like Angel Beats shows it's easiest for original shows to succumb to dangers of one cour - with episodic shows it doesn't matter much overall while novel adaptations usually give good structure to work with/adapt onto tv screen. I think comparing Tatami Galaxy and Kemonozume is good way to see what I mean: the former is far more surefooted all around.
So, what are the few great plot driven original anime that show mastery and skill within the time constraints? My list would include:
- Serial Experiments Lain, Haibane Renmei, Kaiba, Sora no Woto, Boogiepop Phantom etc.
(Boogiepop Phantom is difficult case to evaluate if it belongs in here as it is sequel to original book/film series rather than 100% stand alone)
Now I can add Madoka to the list.
Giving Urobutcher his due
Madoka is masterpiece and possibly the best tv anime of last 5 years or so. Certainly it's the best one cour show within that time, its only competitor of any note being Tatami Galaxy, and ranks among best realized one cour series regardless of era.
Personally speaking I've always been drawn to meticulously put together, carefully planned productions that (unfortunately often) sacrifice humanity and feel of spontaneity for sake of precision of vision. Stanley Kubrick features would probably be the archetypal example of this sort of thing, both positively and negatively. When works of this type succeed exceedingly well dissecting them and seeing how all the individual parts fit together with little to no waste elements like in perfect clockwork mechanism I typically feel I'm face to face with something truly magnificent. Of course there''s naturally tendency towards formalism, minimalism and feel of artifice in comparison to "natural" realist drama in works of this type. In musical terms we're talking about Spector wall of sound madness or Pink Floyd production over Bob Dylan's 60s records usually recorded quickly and on the moment. My favourite anime NGE - which funnily enough resembles improvisatory jazz session more when it came to actual production - is endlessly rich target for this sort of attention, full of motives, hidden details and masterful formalism in editing and presentation in general. I guess the pleasure of this kind can be accused of being some kind of mental onanism but I can live with that.
Rewatching Madoka with mindset determined to dissect the work into its smallest constituents makes virtues of Butch Gen's script apparent. I can count one cour series with as tight, meticulously planned and designed screenplay on one hand's fingers. It's opposite of all writing sins typical in one cour shows.
It's incredibly tight without a single wasted moment or scene that could be left on cutting room floor. No purposeless characters are present, no superfluous story element.
Second it's meticulously planned and premediated. All pieces of puzzle fit together and the flow of story is excellent - all elements that at the beginning may seem disparate and invidual substory arcs are unified by common purpose and they all have carefully planned part in the story, what it wants to do with the genre and what it wannts to say. In particular the pacing is pretty much pitch perfect: no episode is rushed nor too slow. The characters are moved around like pieces on game board with focus always squarely on those most relevant - and those that are most relevant at any given time t are so from pov of the whole story too.
Third all of this is not in service of some dry "math" of writing but to bring highest level of dramaturgy to good story with good characters that in terms of style and execution turn the genre upside down while, funnily ennough, staying thematically loyal to what magical girls have always been about. It's not rare sin for Butch Gen to be needlessly grimdark and cruel for the sake of it but this is not the case in Madoka and while Madoka definetly is cold work it's message is ultimately surprisingly heartfelt and hopeful. After all, ultimately magical girls are warriors of love and dreams.
Still, perhaps most impressive for me was how emotionally involved the series got me again despite my from the outset detached, analytical state of mind. That didn't lessen impact likes of finale and episode 10 in the least.
The problems
So, what were exactly my biggest beefs with series? I guess they were the same ones I saw repeated among the more cogent critiques. For me the most formidable and beliavable criticism of Madoka came down to critiquing characters and claiming they're too weak to carry the drama. Auxilliary complaint was about its melodramaticness etc. at times.
To address the small fly first Madoka *is* rather openly emotional work, surprisingly so given how cold it feels overall. Being Meguka is suffering and all that. Clearly it's not for everyone but is this really a genuine flaw in the writing/execution rather than mismatch of taste and content? As someone who has seen tons of awful and mediocre melodrama in anime (and outside it) I think the answer is resounding no: the dramaturgy is steady, the characters and their relationships wellrounded, there's notable lack of retarded cheesy lines, schmaltzy music and atmosphere. The performances - especially terrific Yuuki Aoi as Madoka - are passionate but skillful and don't really cross the border into the territory of overacting.
The fairest accusation would be that they're milking obvious empathy points (little girls suffering yadda yadda) just because if it wasn't for the bittersweet but by most standards *happy ending* that makes it clear the message the anime wants to convey is positive and life affirming. Mami mogu mogus and Sayaka's suffering *do* have greater purpose in the story: the horror of being mahou shoujo is portrayed for sake of story's end point and with that they gain relevance and value. You might as well accuse Ikiru's main character getting cancer as cynical milking.
As for characters I can only roll my eyes. In general whether or not one ends up *liking* or *emphatizing* with characters has far more to do with personality and contingential factors of viewers life more than writing per se - as long as we forget obviously bad writing that works far below average level showcases. So in the first place I tend to be skeptical of the "characters are unsympathetic" or "I didn't care for characters at all" variety, no matter what the show. They can be legit, certainly, but there are good works with intentionally unsympathetic characters and caring for character X over Y has typically everything to do with viewer's personality. That I like Misato more than Asuka these days is a fact about my character that doesn't say anything about which one is "better" character (I think they're equally well written, in fact).
Anyway, to get to the point I think Madoka uses all the usual tricks in the book for making characters sympathetic. Your average film has about max. 15 minutes to establish audience empathy for main character and heads don't get chomped in Meduka before ep 3. The early episodes pay a lot attention to drawing this picture of Madoka as average, sweet girl with insecurities and thankfully a loving family. Sayaka gets more of a not too bright genki girl jock treatment but with her feelings for injured Kyousuke, protectiveness of her friends and happy go lucky attitude I reallly fail to see the supposed shortcomings. Mami in turn, who has the least showtime among magical girls, is depicted as gentle, badass sempai who plays her role in the story just fine and I think the overwhelming audience support for character with minimal screentime says they did something right. There are also hints of her vulnerable, weak side also in episodes 2 and 3 well before the dramatic end of ep 3 and her life so again, not really sure what people are expecting. It's not like we get even fraction of this before we're supposed to (and can!) sympathize with likes of Indiana Jones in Raiders of Lost Ark.
Secondly the characterization is generally good. All cast members have certain roles to play in story or to convey its themes (obvious example: Sayaka vs Kyouko on being mahou shoujo) and they take care of their main purpose just fine and they're still more than *just* their roles.
Sayaka is probably the most developed character in the story due to her position in it and genuinely fairly complex one. It's no wonder she's open to such differing readings and "why is Sayaka such a bitch" troll threads. I think she's par excellence example of characterization in mini-series and againn makes me wonder where the claims about Butchers inability to write original character comes from. Sayaka's relationships with others are multifaceted as is her personality.
Then there's Madoka herself. One criticism I remember hearing (and agreeing with) back in the day was that she just carries her role in story but because all of her dialogue is plot related we don't learn much about her or get the feeling of her as a girl.
This rewatch proved that patently wrong. There's FAR more screentime and scenes with Madoka and her family in early eps and all of them provide characterization and meat on her mahou-shoujo-lead bones. In particular each scene (important for her character development) with Madoka and her mom is excellent and I have hard time understanding people who say those things about her. Madoka's personality is most defined by the role she carries in story but that's hardly negative per se or end of story. Even in middle third when she's most out of focus she still gets relevant scenes and character moments.
I think I've made my point by now.
All in all I think Madoka does exemplary job with developing and dealling with characters in one cour show. They get just the amount of attention story requires for them to get, no more no less - this is related to the "tightness" of script I mentioned as well as its coldness. It's not wrong to say they're just cogs in the story's machine, but it's a impressive machine and the cogs nevertheless likeable.
To round up the character section props to QB. He's genuinely well written character and one of the most memorable "villains" in anime. I thiink Gen succeeded most impressively with him.
SHAFT's best
Whatever criticisms Madoka gets they're mostly about characters or writing in general and since those were mine too I'm approaching end surprisingly quickly. Leaving aside moronities that don't warrant a reply (like claims about rampant QUALITY) I'm going to say this series looks, sounds and smells fantastic and as aesthetic experience it's a blast.
I think this is the peak of Shinbo's directing: his idiosyncratic style only gets overbearing in couple of scenes (and even then it's well within range of decent/tolerable) and overall he either tames down his editing* or has it serve the story. Ditto for those oddball camera angles and the like. His directing really brings Gen's script to life on top of being very impressive on purely aesthetic level.
*just compare Madoka to average ep of *monogatari to see what I mean. Madoka is easiily less consciously mannered.
Of course Shinbo couldn't do it without SHAFT going full out in general and the show reallly is marvel to look at: architecture, designs, art, use of shadows etc. is all fantastic and combined with Shinbo's directing makes every episode visual joyride. Thouh this still leaves reall star of the show untouched: Inu Curry's Witch Mazes are beyond masterful and STILL remain the most inspired visuals I've seen in anime for past three years. Shinbo had used the duo before in SZS but *not* like this.
To make the package perfect the audio side doesn't lose much. Kajiura's OST does get a bit repetitive towards the end and is no Kara no Kyokai score but it's nevertheless fantastic and one of the best soundtracks of 2011. OP and especially ED were superb. The audio for series was in general very atmospheric, oppressive and seiyuus fantastic.
I can't say how much they've improved things for the BD release but to begin with I've had nothing but praise to offer for Madoka's audiovisual presentation. Now that most of my complaints about writing turned into vanishing smoke the show has leaped couple of stores higher in my mind.
The remaining quipples?
So, Madoka is wonderful dark take on mahou shoujo genre with interesting story and superb technical execution. When it even manages to nail down even that thing hardest for anime - good ending - do I have any nitpicks left?
Only few minor ones. While on rewatch it became clear turn of Kyouko's character wasn't as sudden as it felt back in the day and made sense in general end of her character arc in ep 9 still feels slightly clumsy. I'm not saying it's bad overall or anything, ep 9 is very good regardless, but now it stands out as the one piece of puzzle that doesn't fit in *exactly* in its place like the rest.
Secondly while both (melo)drama and characters are well developed in middle third Madoka's constant crying/DOUSHITE can get a bi tiresome and feel forced. But given the what is going on in series then it certainly makes sense and doesn't go overboard on Ano Hana levels. But if I have to mention minor quipples that's another one.
Third as alluded before there are couple of scenes where Shinbo's style hampers more than furthers the goals of scene but overall these are small, badly coloured spots in great big canvas.
Summary
Masterpiece and being able to admit it took a weight of my shoulders. It's not the only "god anime" between it and Eva, but 神アニメ it indeed is.
10/10
Generally speaking I tend to be very confident in my opinions and it's very rare I change my mind radically about this and that. Perhaps most often it happens with music when I suddenly "get" some album I tried to get into ealier with little success. It also helps that, in particular in comparison to film, I have less firm grasp of the medium nor do I have as concrete criterions for evaluation.
Still, when it comes to film and anime I tend to be outspoken and confident in my ability to identify and assess validity of reasons for my opinions well. I guess it may make me come off as bossy and pretentious at times but it's a price I'm willing to pay (especially since generally speaking I really don't mind people liking animoes I don't or vice versa - though I have my limits which get passed when eg. TDSA kept on insisting Mars of Destruction was good). Of course this leads to overthinking what doesn't warrant it sometimes and generally speaking my evaluation of anime has become fairly abstracted from enjoyability of viewing experience but overall I'm pretty happy with all this. Heck, it's very rare I find anime I watch not pleasant at all so if I didn't make the distinction I'd overrate just about everything. Because of the excessive attention given there's also very little second guessing afterwards and as perverse lover of lists and rankings I'm unreasonably taken by how little I have to grumble with my "history record" of watched anime aka MAL's list of completed titles.
So stuff like Meguka irritate me ever so gently. Good show I always thought but not really masterpiece - certainly no Eva killer. My original viewing experience was fairly "tainted" by the discussion and hype storm surrounding the series at time despite doing my best to make certain that didn't affect my enjoyment of show one way or another. So I felt my experience with series was hazier than most but what really was the crux was that in comparison to my usual casual confidence I had started to increasingly doubt the reasonability of my criticisms.
Of course a big factor in this was universal, almost excessively high praise by people within and outside industry who I respect and expect to know what they talk about. While Oshii's "first kami anime since Evangelion" is still rather loloshii comment in bad way when you stack enough of those re-examining my own convictions starts to look rather sensible. Extelligence higher than intelligence and all that.
Another, more important reason was that after casually viewing arguments/trolling/general derping about Madoka for two years I started to feel increasingly strongly the most common criticisms were at best one-eyed and typically way off and ill conceived. Since my own quipples with show were included in this list of criticisms of questionable value what else there was to do than take another look at the deconstruction of our life time?
Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica
scene of the year of all years
Curse of Lonely Cour
Really achieving something within the constraints of 13 episodes is never easy: the largest number of one cour tv anime are essentially commercials for much longer manga or light novel series which hopefully sell enough to warrant another season. Obviously such adaptations, no matter how good or horrid they are, are not really made with how well the series fares as singular, self-contained narrative in mind. It's also incredibly easy to run out of time while twiddling around with this and that as if the staff still had the traditional two cours to use and then resort to sudden spike in tension to give the end some feeling of finale (most offensive example being perhaps Kannagi and its worthless ep and half worth of serious drama tacked in the end after its subject hadn't been relevant after first ep).
It also forces serious consideration on how you use the cast, how large it is etc. in a way two-cour show doesn't really need to worry about. If you write it tightly one cour is more than enough (and whatever else is said of Ano Hana it does use its short lenght very well to explore its cast to extent needed and most importantly it doesn't feel like it would benefit from additional episodes) but the fact is most series don't meet the demand.
As good example of general failure with format nothing can top Angel Beat's general cramped aura and smell of catastrophe: Jun Maeda couldn't have made better argument for his inability to write in such limited time if he tried to do it intentionally!
On the other hand if one takes look at cream of the crop certain features repeat often. First of all there are series for which the exact lenght is utterly irrelevant: that is to say they don't need to be one cour shows, they could be longer (or shorter!) without significant losses. The series that fit this category are of course those that are anthologies of short stories or episodic with little overarching plot:
- Kino's Journey, Ayakashi, Mononoke, Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei, Joshiraku, Aria, Jinrui wa Suitaishimashita, Bartender, Haruhi s1 etc.
Shows of this kind could and can - most of them are adaptations of long running, mostly episodic series after all - be extended without worries and there's no reason per se why you can't consider Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei one 40+ episode show broken into separate seasons due to contingencies of television production. Haruhi's rebroadcast/"second season" turned into two cour affair entirely naturally sans Endless Eight. There's no reason for Ayakashi to be anthology of three stories in particular: it could've been two or five just as well.
Second category of great one cour series are adaptations that have source material of "just right" lenght. Not surprisingly novels that aren't door stoppers are good candidates so my picks here would be:
- Tatami Galaxy, Mouryou no Hako, Katanagatari etc.
Most good one cour shows that fare well as "singular, self-contained narratives" have this origin.
Last category would be great original tv anime of one cour lenght. This is of course the rarest group for clear reasos. For one it clearly took a while for the industry to get used to one cour format when the drift towards it overtook industry in late 90s/early 00s. Secondly original tv anime is unfortunately always in minority so it follows so are good original tv anime in general. Last but not least like Angel Beats shows it's easiest for original shows to succumb to dangers of one cour - with episodic shows it doesn't matter much overall while novel adaptations usually give good structure to work with/adapt onto tv screen. I think comparing Tatami Galaxy and Kemonozume is good way to see what I mean: the former is far more surefooted all around.
So, what are the few great plot driven original anime that show mastery and skill within the time constraints? My list would include:
- Serial Experiments Lain, Haibane Renmei, Kaiba, Sora no Woto, Boogiepop Phantom etc.
(Boogiepop Phantom is difficult case to evaluate if it belongs in here as it is sequel to original book/film series rather than 100% stand alone)
Now I can add Madoka to the list.
Giving Urobutcher his due
Madoka is masterpiece and possibly the best tv anime of last 5 years or so. Certainly it's the best one cour show within that time, its only competitor of any note being Tatami Galaxy, and ranks among best realized one cour series regardless of era.
Personally speaking I've always been drawn to meticulously put together, carefully planned productions that (unfortunately often) sacrifice humanity and feel of spontaneity for sake of precision of vision. Stanley Kubrick features would probably be the archetypal example of this sort of thing, both positively and negatively. When works of this type succeed exceedingly well dissecting them and seeing how all the individual parts fit together with little to no waste elements like in perfect clockwork mechanism I typically feel I'm face to face with something truly magnificent. Of course there''s naturally tendency towards formalism, minimalism and feel of artifice in comparison to "natural" realist drama in works of this type. In musical terms we're talking about Spector wall of sound madness or Pink Floyd production over Bob Dylan's 60s records usually recorded quickly and on the moment. My favourite anime NGE - which funnily enough resembles improvisatory jazz session more when it came to actual production - is endlessly rich target for this sort of attention, full of motives, hidden details and masterful formalism in editing and presentation in general. I guess the pleasure of this kind can be accused of being some kind of mental onanism but I can live with that.
Rewatching Madoka with mindset determined to dissect the work into its smallest constituents makes virtues of Butch Gen's script apparent. I can count one cour series with as tight, meticulously planned and designed screenplay on one hand's fingers. It's opposite of all writing sins typical in one cour shows.
It's incredibly tight without a single wasted moment or scene that could be left on cutting room floor. No purposeless characters are present, no superfluous story element.
Second it's meticulously planned and premediated. All pieces of puzzle fit together and the flow of story is excellent - all elements that at the beginning may seem disparate and invidual substory arcs are unified by common purpose and they all have carefully planned part in the story, what it wants to do with the genre and what it wannts to say. In particular the pacing is pretty much pitch perfect: no episode is rushed nor too slow. The characters are moved around like pieces on game board with focus always squarely on those most relevant - and those that are most relevant at any given time t are so from pov of the whole story too.
Third all of this is not in service of some dry "math" of writing but to bring highest level of dramaturgy to good story with good characters that in terms of style and execution turn the genre upside down while, funnily ennough, staying thematically loyal to what magical girls have always been about. It's not rare sin for Butch Gen to be needlessly grimdark and cruel for the sake of it but this is not the case in Madoka and while Madoka definetly is cold work it's message is ultimately surprisingly heartfelt and hopeful. After all, ultimately magical girls are warriors of love and dreams.
Still, perhaps most impressive for me was how emotionally involved the series got me again despite my from the outset detached, analytical state of mind. That didn't lessen impact likes of finale and episode 10 in the least.
The problems
So, what were exactly my biggest beefs with series? I guess they were the same ones I saw repeated among the more cogent critiques. For me the most formidable and beliavable criticism of Madoka came down to critiquing characters and claiming they're too weak to carry the drama. Auxilliary complaint was about its melodramaticness etc. at times.
To address the small fly first Madoka *is* rather openly emotional work, surprisingly so given how cold it feels overall. Being Meguka is suffering and all that. Clearly it's not for everyone but is this really a genuine flaw in the writing/execution rather than mismatch of taste and content? As someone who has seen tons of awful and mediocre melodrama in anime (and outside it) I think the answer is resounding no: the dramaturgy is steady, the characters and their relationships wellrounded, there's notable lack of retarded cheesy lines, schmaltzy music and atmosphere. The performances - especially terrific Yuuki Aoi as Madoka - are passionate but skillful and don't really cross the border into the territory of overacting.
The fairest accusation would be that they're milking obvious empathy points (little girls suffering yadda yadda) just because if it wasn't for the bittersweet but by most standards *happy ending* that makes it clear the message the anime wants to convey is positive and life affirming. Mami mogu mogus and Sayaka's suffering *do* have greater purpose in the story: the horror of being mahou shoujo is portrayed for sake of story's end point and with that they gain relevance and value. You might as well accuse Ikiru's main character getting cancer as cynical milking.
As for characters I can only roll my eyes. In general whether or not one ends up *liking* or *emphatizing* with characters has far more to do with personality and contingential factors of viewers life more than writing per se - as long as we forget obviously bad writing that works far below average level showcases. So in the first place I tend to be skeptical of the "characters are unsympathetic" or "I didn't care for characters at all" variety, no matter what the show. They can be legit, certainly, but there are good works with intentionally unsympathetic characters and caring for character X over Y has typically everything to do with viewer's personality. That I like Misato more than Asuka these days is a fact about my character that doesn't say anything about which one is "better" character (I think they're equally well written, in fact).
Anyway, to get to the point I think Madoka uses all the usual tricks in the book for making characters sympathetic. Your average film has about max. 15 minutes to establish audience empathy for main character and heads don't get chomped in Meduka before ep 3. The early episodes pay a lot attention to drawing this picture of Madoka as average, sweet girl with insecurities and thankfully a loving family. Sayaka gets more of a not too bright genki girl jock treatment but with her feelings for injured Kyousuke, protectiveness of her friends and happy go lucky attitude I reallly fail to see the supposed shortcomings. Mami in turn, who has the least showtime among magical girls, is depicted as gentle, badass sempai who plays her role in the story just fine and I think the overwhelming audience support for character with minimal screentime says they did something right. There are also hints of her vulnerable, weak side also in episodes 2 and 3 well before the dramatic end of ep 3 and her life so again, not really sure what people are expecting. It's not like we get even fraction of this before we're supposed to (and can!) sympathize with likes of Indiana Jones in Raiders of Lost Ark.
Secondly the characterization is generally good. All cast members have certain roles to play in story or to convey its themes (obvious example: Sayaka vs Kyouko on being mahou shoujo) and they take care of their main purpose just fine and they're still more than *just* their roles.
Sayaka is probably the most developed character in the story due to her position in it and genuinely fairly complex one. It's no wonder she's open to such differing readings and "why is Sayaka such a bitch" troll threads. I think she's par excellence example of characterization in mini-series and againn makes me wonder where the claims about Butchers inability to write original character comes from. Sayaka's relationships with others are multifaceted as is her personality.
Then there's Madoka herself. One criticism I remember hearing (and agreeing with) back in the day was that she just carries her role in story but because all of her dialogue is plot related we don't learn much about her or get the feeling of her as a girl.
This rewatch proved that patently wrong. There's FAR more screentime and scenes with Madoka and her family in early eps and all of them provide characterization and meat on her mahou-shoujo-lead bones. In particular each scene (important for her character development) with Madoka and her mom is excellent and I have hard time understanding people who say those things about her. Madoka's personality is most defined by the role she carries in story but that's hardly negative per se or end of story. Even in middle third when she's most out of focus she still gets relevant scenes and character moments.
I think I've made my point by now.
All in all I think Madoka does exemplary job with developing and dealling with characters in one cour show. They get just the amount of attention story requires for them to get, no more no less - this is related to the "tightness" of script I mentioned as well as its coldness. It's not wrong to say they're just cogs in the story's machine, but it's a impressive machine and the cogs nevertheless likeable.
To round up the character section props to QB. He's genuinely well written character and one of the most memorable "villains" in anime. I thiink Gen succeeded most impressively with him.
SHAFT's best
Whatever criticisms Madoka gets they're mostly about characters or writing in general and since those were mine too I'm approaching end surprisingly quickly. Leaving aside moronities that don't warrant a reply (like claims about rampant QUALITY) I'm going to say this series looks, sounds and smells fantastic and as aesthetic experience it's a blast.
I think this is the peak of Shinbo's directing: his idiosyncratic style only gets overbearing in couple of scenes (and even then it's well within range of decent/tolerable) and overall he either tames down his editing* or has it serve the story. Ditto for those oddball camera angles and the like. His directing really brings Gen's script to life on top of being very impressive on purely aesthetic level.
*just compare Madoka to average ep of *monogatari to see what I mean. Madoka is easiily less consciously mannered.
Of course Shinbo couldn't do it without SHAFT going full out in general and the show reallly is marvel to look at: architecture, designs, art, use of shadows etc. is all fantastic and combined with Shinbo's directing makes every episode visual joyride. Thouh this still leaves reall star of the show untouched: Inu Curry's Witch Mazes are beyond masterful and STILL remain the most inspired visuals I've seen in anime for past three years. Shinbo had used the duo before in SZS but *not* like this.
To make the package perfect the audio side doesn't lose much. Kajiura's OST does get a bit repetitive towards the end and is no Kara no Kyokai score but it's nevertheless fantastic and one of the best soundtracks of 2011. OP and especially ED were superb. The audio for series was in general very atmospheric, oppressive and seiyuus fantastic.
I can't say how much they've improved things for the BD release but to begin with I've had nothing but praise to offer for Madoka's audiovisual presentation. Now that most of my complaints about writing turned into vanishing smoke the show has leaped couple of stores higher in my mind.
The remaining quipples?
So, Madoka is wonderful dark take on mahou shoujo genre with interesting story and superb technical execution. When it even manages to nail down even that thing hardest for anime - good ending - do I have any nitpicks left?
Only few minor ones. While on rewatch it became clear turn of Kyouko's character wasn't as sudden as it felt back in the day and made sense in general end of her character arc in ep 9 still feels slightly clumsy. I'm not saying it's bad overall or anything, ep 9 is very good regardless, but now it stands out as the one piece of puzzle that doesn't fit in *exactly* in its place like the rest.
Secondly while both (melo)drama and characters are well developed in middle third Madoka's constant crying/DOUSHITE can get a bi tiresome and feel forced. But given the what is going on in series then it certainly makes sense and doesn't go overboard on Ano Hana levels. But if I have to mention minor quipples that's another one.
Third as alluded before there are couple of scenes where Shinbo's style hampers more than furthers the goals of scene but overall these are small, badly coloured spots in great big canvas.
Summary
Masterpiece and being able to admit it took a weight of my shoulders. It's not the only "god anime" between it and Eva, but 神アニメ it indeed is.
10/10
Last edited by Xard on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- InstrumentalityOne
- Strawberries & Peaches
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Yeah, PMMM's really up there with the greats, even if I don't really want to admit it.
Here some afterthoughts after Xard made a lolhueg post:
Excitement-wise I enjoyed the ride to episode 11 more than the actual end though, most people remember it by the ending but I don't think that it was all that important.
The finale was more of a natural consequence that came out of the things we learned about Madoka and I think that was intentional by the creators and works really well combined with the Homu-perspective.
It's like we see the thing we have heard so many times about with shiny animation and then the anime closes like that.
So anyway what I wanted to say was that I think the pacing is what really made this anime so enticing and unique.
Here some afterthoughts after Xard made a lolhueg post:
Excitement-wise I enjoyed the ride to episode 11 more than the actual end though, most people remember it by the ending but I don't think that it was all that important.
The finale was more of a natural consequence that came out of the things we learned about Madoka and I think that was intentional by the creators and works really well combined with the Homu-perspective.
It's like we see the thing we have heard so many times about with shiny animation and then the anime closes like that.
So anyway what I wanted to say was that I think the pacing is what really made this anime so enticing and unique.
Yeah, I'm in the corner that wasn't too hot about the characters. Sayaka was the good gril gon bad, Mami's appearence was to short lived and I am so cold over Food-chan I don't even know what to say about her. Homu is about the only one that really "clicked" with me and I still think she is the true MC of the story. Madoka herself didn't do much for most of the times but I have to admit, at the same time it's fascinating. Her role is almost deconstruting the role of a lead without making her completely useless. As Xard said, she takes the seat to advance the plot, the voice of the watcher in all the chaos and suffering so to speak, but it can also be rather frustrating, especially with that troll opening. Putting it into perspective though, it was a short series and I think they all played their parts well enough.
The presentation and Shaftness was what I liked the most. It's an undoubtedly very atmospheric anime. Also agree with IO assessment, episode 11 was the high point. The final....I don't want to use the word cop out, it worked and rounded a good show up but it just didn't leave that final gut wrecking punch like Eva. Then again, if that's my only complain it speaks for the quality of the show itself.
The presentation and Shaftness was what I liked the most. It's an undoubtedly very atmospheric anime. Also agree with IO assessment, episode 11 was the high point. The final....I don't want to use the word cop out, it worked and rounded a good show up but it just didn't leave that final gut wrecking punch like Eva. Then again, if that's my only complain it speaks for the quality of the show itself.
Avatar: Rommel-chan
"I was born into the wrong time" - laughed the girl
「＜ゝω・）＼綺羅星☆!!／
[/size]
"I was born into the wrong time" - laughed the girl
「＜ゝω・）＼綺羅星☆!!／
[/size]
Inspired by another delightful essay from Xard, I'll go ahead and offer my own two cents/ramble about Madoka, I'll give out a warning; it has nothing to do about the show itself (and his MAL), but on the things Xard talked about:
On the whole, I agree with Xard's assessment on the show, and I'm happy that he talked the anime without endlessly gushing about on how it was either a well-needed deconstruction of a beloved genre (a viewpoint I still don't get), or praise it to the high heaven for creating an impeccable product the anime business only sees once every decade. On my end, I first went into this show being aware about some the twists and turns the show was going to pull, so right off the bat, I couldn't experience this anime the same way the initial viewers watched it.
That never did stop me for enjoying a lot of the elements Xard pointed out: a planned story that made the right choices, the fact that the show manged to pull of that kind of story in only 12 episodes, what each of the characters represented and how those same characters interacted with one another (probably one of the most important aspects of the show, looking back), the designs, and the music. From a technical perspective, its reinforced proof that the more effort each creative head puts into something, the collaboration system within the business successes beautifully. In a way, it's almost a miracle that each creative position didn't overshadow another one, and it's assuring that a lot of figures within noticed those ideas and praised accordingly to what they saw.
Like any good piece of writing, Xard's essay has gave me pause about my own opinion about the show (which I'll get into later), and with further thinking, it has made me reconsider what I thought what the show was all about. Thanks to him, I now agree that, ultimately, what the show was trying to say about the spiritual power behind magical girls does not correspond to what the show embodies within the industry, or to anyone watching the show. The fate those characters met, and what they exemplify from their designs was indeed needed for what SHAFT wanted to say about the show, and as we've all seen, it resulted into a mass phenomenon that can never go away.
Despite my personal opinions about the viewpoint many anime fans took to the show, I do think most of the praise the show gets from them is justified, and any negativity some do throw at the show is problematic, but understandable. As Xard kept on saying, the show's coldness towards almost every character, whenever it was through the artwork, the dialogue, or the acting, along with using as much dramatic conventions as possible does create this tension against whatever message the show does say, and on the viewer's part, they have to understand that the ideals that define some of the characters are part of the plan that the show takes both the viewer and the character; some people are so used to whatever magical girls do, it comes to the point that many expect that those archetypes will show up and "reveal" something. Those who created the show knew that, and if the marketing the show initially had, the history/sale figures everyone can claim, and some of Gen's comments tell us anything, it's that they, both Gen and SHAFT, have this conscious understanding on what makes people like us tick, and however threatening that may be, the output from both SHAFT and Gen outside of the show, is that it's nothing malicious on their part. There might be this illusion that they have something against us, but again, as Xard said, it's really just an filmmaking philosophy being used in a business rarely seen, no doubt the result of a collaboration of someone who wrote outside that enclosed working space, at first, and someone else used to expressing ideas his own way. Obviously, that process had some influence on how public opinion on that show formed as time went on, and I won’t be surprised if such marketing will be used in the future.
That being said, what the show has done comes to mind something a critic (Otis Ferguson) said about Disney's success with Snow White: "[H]e is appreciated by all ages, but he is granted the license and simplification of those who tell tales for children, because that is his elected medium to start with. It is not easy to do amusing things for children, but the more complex field of adult relations is far severer in its demands." Urobuchi has met those demands exceedingly well, and he has used that simplification to his benefit at what he wanted to say about the show, but because of what he has done to those relations, the show has now created expectations far beyond anyone was honestly expecting, and now that those expectations are out of the open, almost deliberately, an ultimatum has been declared: the business must change to accommodate what was in Madoka, or the franchise will have to do something to keep itself alive until the next hit arrives, that might not even accomplish the ideals Madoka expressed.
With those demands being met, through a process that invites looking into ideas in a way that invokes intentional manipulative, to the point where the process itself was bent to accommodate one man’s storyline, then we have arrived at the sort of quality where the viewers responded the way the creators intended, then the fans themselves will have a harder time in figuring out on the elements that did or did not work, because a problem arises within critical analysis if the show can alter emotions play a part into someone’s opinion on the show. As such, the fans are now separated even further from the creators, acting as subjects being used to evoke a reaction, instead of passive observers as an audience. As such, what truly worked with the show will become indistinguible from what didn’t work, and once those “bad” elements are revealed, then the battles will either end up being over whenever or not the representations amounted to anything, or if such coldness was a good idea or not.
To put it in another way, anime has now found the perfect representation of what a certain kind of anime can achieve, and I’m struggling on whenever or not I want to praise it for doing that, or pause and ask questions no one wants to ask. The types of anime I’ve always enjoyed make me appreciate all the hard work, and help expand my own thinking on things I might not understand. And of course, I become involve in emotions that only anime, with its’ communication skills, could provide. To get those emotions, some of the best anime can help us understand why the people behind the show made the show what it was, expanding our understanding on what worked about some shows: For example, the more I figure out what happened in Evangelion, I find someone, an otaku, who no longer wanted anything to do with the people he was associated with (and Cowboy Bebop was directed by someone who was interested in creating a style unlike anything on the air). In Madoka’s case, I see a craftsman who understood what his core audience want, and as a response, gave them something they desperately needed; disguised as something they really wanted.
tl;dr Xard, as usual, is right on with his critical analysis, but from my perspective, the show's virtues are being praised for completely different reasons than most anime is, even the ones that were labeled as the best in the past. If the show becomes the benchmark for future anime, then they have to answer all the questions a format that Xard laid out, or else risk a far more severe failure other anime won’t have to tackle.
Would I still recommend someone to watch it? Absolutely, but since we all took SHAFT/Urobuchi's contract, with no repercussions, I have to wonder if the success of the show isn’t letting us stand aside from truly fascinating bits and pieces the show left. If the show is a masterpiece, then how come I haven’t seen anyone writing, or applying, about the cogs of the wheel to make their own wheels?
On the whole, I agree with Xard's assessment on the show, and I'm happy that he talked the anime without endlessly gushing about on how it was either a well-needed deconstruction of a beloved genre (a viewpoint I still don't get), or praise it to the high heaven for creating an impeccable product the anime business only sees once every decade. On my end, I first went into this show being aware about some the twists and turns the show was going to pull, so right off the bat, I couldn't experience this anime the same way the initial viewers watched it.
That never did stop me for enjoying a lot of the elements Xard pointed out: a planned story that made the right choices, the fact that the show manged to pull of that kind of story in only 12 episodes, what each of the characters represented and how those same characters interacted with one another (probably one of the most important aspects of the show, looking back), the designs, and the music. From a technical perspective, its reinforced proof that the more effort each creative head puts into something, the collaboration system within the business successes beautifully. In a way, it's almost a miracle that each creative position didn't overshadow another one, and it's assuring that a lot of figures within noticed those ideas and praised accordingly to what they saw.
Like any good piece of writing, Xard's essay has gave me pause about my own opinion about the show (which I'll get into later), and with further thinking, it has made me reconsider what I thought what the show was all about. Thanks to him, I now agree that, ultimately, what the show was trying to say about the spiritual power behind magical girls does not correspond to what the show embodies within the industry, or to anyone watching the show. The fate those characters met, and what they exemplify from their designs was indeed needed for what SHAFT wanted to say about the show, and as we've all seen, it resulted into a mass phenomenon that can never go away.
Despite my personal opinions about the viewpoint many anime fans took to the show, I do think most of the praise the show gets from them is justified, and any negativity some do throw at the show is problematic, but understandable. As Xard kept on saying, the show's coldness towards almost every character, whenever it was through the artwork, the dialogue, or the acting, along with using as much dramatic conventions as possible does create this tension against whatever message the show does say, and on the viewer's part, they have to understand that the ideals that define some of the characters are part of the plan that the show takes both the viewer and the character; some people are so used to whatever magical girls do, it comes to the point that many expect that those archetypes will show up and "reveal" something. Those who created the show knew that, and if the marketing the show initially had, the history/sale figures everyone can claim, and some of Gen's comments tell us anything, it's that they, both Gen and SHAFT, have this conscious understanding on what makes people like us tick, and however threatening that may be, the output from both SHAFT and Gen outside of the show, is that it's nothing malicious on their part. There might be this illusion that they have something against us, but again, as Xard said, it's really just an filmmaking philosophy being used in a business rarely seen, no doubt the result of a collaboration of someone who wrote outside that enclosed working space, at first, and someone else used to expressing ideas his own way. Obviously, that process had some influence on how public opinion on that show formed as time went on, and I won’t be surprised if such marketing will be used in the future.
That being said, what the show has done comes to mind something a critic (Otis Ferguson) said about Disney's success with Snow White: "[H]e is appreciated by all ages, but he is granted the license and simplification of those who tell tales for children, because that is his elected medium to start with. It is not easy to do amusing things for children, but the more complex field of adult relations is far severer in its demands." Urobuchi has met those demands exceedingly well, and he has used that simplification to his benefit at what he wanted to say about the show, but because of what he has done to those relations, the show has now created expectations far beyond anyone was honestly expecting, and now that those expectations are out of the open, almost deliberately, an ultimatum has been declared: the business must change to accommodate what was in Madoka, or the franchise will have to do something to keep itself alive until the next hit arrives, that might not even accomplish the ideals Madoka expressed.
With those demands being met, through a process that invites looking into ideas in a way that invokes intentional manipulative, to the point where the process itself was bent to accommodate one man’s storyline, then we have arrived at the sort of quality where the viewers responded the way the creators intended, then the fans themselves will have a harder time in figuring out on the elements that did or did not work, because a problem arises within critical analysis if the show can alter emotions play a part into someone’s opinion on the show. As such, the fans are now separated even further from the creators, acting as subjects being used to evoke a reaction, instead of passive observers as an audience. As such, what truly worked with the show will become indistinguible from what didn’t work, and once those “bad” elements are revealed, then the battles will either end up being over whenever or not the representations amounted to anything, or if such coldness was a good idea or not.
To put it in another way, anime has now found the perfect representation of what a certain kind of anime can achieve, and I’m struggling on whenever or not I want to praise it for doing that, or pause and ask questions no one wants to ask. The types of anime I’ve always enjoyed make me appreciate all the hard work, and help expand my own thinking on things I might not understand. And of course, I become involve in emotions that only anime, with its’ communication skills, could provide. To get those emotions, some of the best anime can help us understand why the people behind the show made the show what it was, expanding our understanding on what worked about some shows: For example, the more I figure out what happened in Evangelion, I find someone, an otaku, who no longer wanted anything to do with the people he was associated with (and Cowboy Bebop was directed by someone who was interested in creating a style unlike anything on the air). In Madoka’s case, I see a craftsman who understood what his core audience want, and as a response, gave them something they desperately needed; disguised as something they really wanted.
tl;dr Xard, as usual, is right on with his critical analysis, but from my perspective, the show's virtues are being praised for completely different reasons than most anime is, even the ones that were labeled as the best in the past. If the show becomes the benchmark for future anime, then they have to answer all the questions a format that Xard laid out, or else risk a far more severe failure other anime won’t have to tackle.
Would I still recommend someone to watch it? Absolutely, but since we all took SHAFT/Urobuchi's contract, with no repercussions, I have to wonder if the success of the show isn’t letting us stand aside from truly fascinating bits and pieces the show left. If the show is a masterpiece, then how come I haven’t seen anyone writing, or applying, about the cogs of the wheel to make their own wheels?
"Free-associative internet ravings know no proprietors."-Azathoth
"Cinema's value is that it is inhuman."-chee
"I only meant to stay a while."-ELO
"Cinema's value is that it is inhuman."-chee
"I only meant to stay a while."-ELO
- pwhodges
- A Lilin in Wonderland
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The other way to view that is that it brought you down to the end calmly and peacefully, restoring your equilibrium rather than leaving you shaken up - that doesn't take away from what came before, though. In the same way, the end of The Lord of the Rings can be seen as a let down if taken in isolation, but actually rounds off and balances the whole work pretty much perfectly. The closing scene of Mozart's opera Don Giovanni does the same, but more controversially (some directors have omitted it to end with the Don's descent into hell).
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: The end of the journey (details); Past avatars.
Before 3.0+1.0 there was Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: The end of the journey (details); Past avatars.
Before 3.0+1.0 there was Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)
Yeah it works, as I said it rounded it up solid, there are certainly worse endings out there but considering entire show build up to Madoka vs Walpurgisnacht this was still of a let down. Basically the show had a preejaculation and was riding the climax with a limp dick. For something to leave an ever lasting impression on me, it just needs that last punch.
Avatar: Rommel-chan
"I was born into the wrong time" - laughed the girl
「＜ゝω・）＼綺羅星☆!!／
[/size]
"I was born into the wrong time" - laughed the girl
「＜ゝω・）＼綺羅星☆!!／
[/size]
- tomrule123
- Tokyo-3 Resident
- Age: 34
- Posts: 1248
- Joined: Dec 14, 2009
- Location: New York
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- Contact:
I have heard lots of things about it lately. No I have not seen it yet, but found out a bit the twists and turns that this so-called "cute and adorable" series will have. (mainly how dark this will get later on. ... no I don't know the story of this yet. Trying not to spoil myself.)
What's surreal about this? Finding out that the screenplays were written by the author of the Light Novels of Fate/Zero. ... wait, he wrote this show?! ... well... allow me to quote John Malkovich from the 3rd Transformers film: "Impress me." (yes, it's sad that I remember this line from a stupid Michael Bay film. ... at least it was Malkovich saying this.)
What's surreal about this? Finding out that the screenplays were written by the author of the Light Novels of Fate/Zero. ... wait, he wrote this show?! ... well... allow me to quote John Malkovich from the 3rd Transformers film: "Impress me." (yes, it's sad that I remember this line from a stupid Michael Bay film. ... at least it was Malkovich saying this.)
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