Shinji's portrayal in Eva 2.0/2.22

[Kendrix]

That "Rei has no idea of human social stuff" point might've been valid if you were talking about Rei at the very beginning of the series, but by the last third of Rebuild, she was saying hello to people, for gods sake, and various characters noted that she was changing.
She hasn't reached "100% ordinary chick" yet because you can't undo the effect of being raised in a lab in a few weeks, but she was being inquisitive, putting furniture into her house, disobeying orders, with horror, determination, happiness and dejection being aparent on her face. Note the words of gratitude towards her fellow pilots (and the progressing normalcy we see here - 1. "Thanks, Shinji, for being the first person to ever give me a gift" 2. "Thanks Asuka, for allowing me to do something that's very important to me" 3. "Thanks Mari for casually helping me out with that pesky Angel)/that this developement wasn't only directed at Shinji.
(Note that this isn't exclusive to Rebuild - In fact, it's astonishing how much she acts like a normal teenager in episodes 15 to 18. (Proof shall be presented if asked-for, with shiny pictures!) And she was never that icy to begin with/more of a kuudere than an emotionless chick from the get-go. Read the script of episode 5, you'll be surprised how much explicitly emotional reactions are detailed there.
It's not that Rei is somehow inherently incapable of human emotion; She isn't like an autistic person wose very brain is wired differently and might be able to circumvent their limitations/intellectually understand what the problem is and what they have to watch out for with the right education, but will never be a normal person. She's like a neglected child that might actually heal if they get placed with people who invest in them, even if the scars will never dissapear, a normal person who had damage done to them that can, to some degree, be undone.
All she lacked is input, since she was being treated like an object. Note how she instantly starts acting very normal (not just talking and smiling, it involves gestures as well) when she interacts with Gendo, and how Rei I had subtle, but visible expressions and looks up when she is talked to.
Her condition is from being raised in a lab and the sheer depressingness of being replacable - It can't be from being a SoL; After all, while Kaworu isn't 100% normal (then again, his upbringing probably wasn't completely normal either; the SEELe dudes'tendency for overly philosophic, metaphoric talk has rubbed off on him), he doesn't seem to have any trouble with emotion or understanding the people around him - quite the oposite, he was always smiling when he wasn't deeply conflicted between his destiny and his affection/fascination for humankind, and he could read people like books, even those as unskilled at communication as our dear Shin-chan. And Rei's closer to being human than he is. you know, an ordinary human baby also needs to be smiled at by people before they can learn to smile. We're not born with that skill)
Rei is returning Shinji's feelings all the time; whenever she does anything other than pilot eva and sit around in her apartment. It's because he invested in her that the she smiles and talks and makes plans of her own; She worries about him and strives to make him happy (she outright stated so in Rebuild at least)

(CR also says that Anno thought of her as a character who'd subtly show their emotions after the "It's a secret"-scene, so it's not just me saying that. And didn't his original conception of her say that she has to be "painted as a bitterly unhappy young girl" above anything else?)


Also this "He only saved Rei for his own self-gratification" makes by blood boil.
By that logic, anything anyone ever does would be for self-gratification. After all, even doing the right thing even if it causes you pain gives you the positive feeling of having done something right because it caused you pain right? any any valued you'd ever stand up for are still your own values.
He outright stated that he doesn't give a fuck what happens to him and just wouldn't stop no matter how much pain he went through.
He was ready to sacrifice his life there.

The sheer discrepance to the perception in the audience that movie was actually intended for that it's just people unwilling to let go of their perception that Shinji is pure evil that was wrong to begin with. He sure has deep flaws, but the plot of the show mainly consists of him overcomming those.

same for the "he only does it for the idea of Rei"; At this point, he knows her better than anyone else on this planet, mainly because he's the only one who bothered to spend time with her as a human being;
He's interested in her; (That is, in fact, why he plays such a special role for her - untill now, she was just a tool for everyone else.) when she's absent from school, she wonders about what her words meant, he used to question why she's always alone, and was horrified at her "saying such sad things". He seems to have paid enough attention to her to notice that no one makes her any lunch.
The central dialogue in that scene has him telling her that she's worth it. "You're unique and that's why you're worth something", that's the nicest thing anyone could ever say to Rei, the one thing she always needed to hear, what her central problem was - he might not know the juicy plot details about her, but that doesn't keep him from knowing her as a person. There is more to Rei than her origin story.

She really did do a lot for him, and the god mode scene was his attempt to pay her back. His methods might not have been correct, but his feelings were real here.
Of course, she wasn't the only one to do a lot for him, but in her case, his own stubborness wasn't enough to blind him because yeah, she did things for him because he was nice to her, not because he's the pilot of unit one - he met her because of that, yeah, but if he hadn't invested in her, she'd still be ignoring him, EVA or not.

[Sailor Star Dust]

I would really like to write a neat little outline on the visual clues which i see as supporting evidence for my side of things, but alas, i don't have 2.22 on either of my computers (got lost in a cleanup operation), so i can't povide pictures for said outline, which i think would be the proper way to do it. Maybe someday.

I'd love to read this.

[Azathoth]

"You're unique and that's why you're worth something", that's the nicest thing anyone could ever say to Rei, the one thing she always needed to hear, what her central problem was -

But it's a lie.

Again, Shinji is refusing to deal with the reality of Rei. He is projecting his return-to-gestation dreams onto her. To use ep16's terminology, the only Rei he is considering is the Rei inside his own mind. He hasn't even begun to consider Rei as seen by others, he actively refuses to consider Rei's self-perceptions, and most critically he hasn't realized that the Rei in his mind is just another mother he made up because he couldn't deal with the world.

The person who knows Rei better than anyone else is Gendou, and Gendou both despises her and projects his own wish for a limitless maternal love onto her. Which should perhaps suggest something about Rei's character.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Gendou both despises her and projects his own wish for a limitless maternal love onto her. Which should perhaps suggest something about Rei's character.

Gendo uses everybody, yes. But despises Rei? Source?

[SaltyJoe]

Also this "He only saved Rei for his own self-gratification" makes by blood boil.
By that logic, anything anyone ever does would be for self-gratification. After all, even doing the right thing even if it causes you pain gives you the positive feeling of having done something right because it caused you pain right? any any valued you'd ever stand up for are still your own values.
He outright stated that he doesn't give a fuck what happens to him and just wouldn't stop no matter how much pain he went through.
He was ready to sacrifice his life there.

In Shinji's mind, if he doesn't get the cuddly-wuddly wuw he hungers for, all he has left is the hateful world where living is not worth it. So it's either save Rei because she represents to him what he wants, or he might as well stop existing altogether.

The sheer discrepance to the perception in the audience that movie was actually intended for that it's just people unwilling to let go of their perception that Shinji is pure evil that was wrong to begin with. He sure has deep flaws, but the plot of the show mainly consists of him overcomming those.

"Pure evil"? Pardon me, but aren't you the one who's holding humanity to a standard that's a bit too high? Seeking gratification makes one pure evil? Just a damaged and confused kid, which he is. He should start growing out of it, though, and soon.

At this point, he knows her better than anyone else on this planet

Not really. Actually, it's pretty remarkable how every time some topic of discussion comes up between them ("Why do you pilot?", "LOL what do you think of the fishes?") that forces Rei to give something of an answer, it always ends with Shinji looking completely dumbstruck like "Buh?" with his mouth usually open. He doesn't understand Rei the slightest bit beyond "She's kinda gloomy but cute, and hey, suddenly she's sort of nice to me", and they never get to a point where Rei directly tells Shinji what she thinks or wants. Ironically enough, the only person to wring something like that out of Rei was Asuka. She gets deeper with understanding Rei in one minute than Shinji did in two movies. And as fantastic a yuri coupling they would make... well i don't think i need to get into details about how there's not much of a mutual interest there.

Kinda shows how good Shinji is at getting to know people, really.

[symbv]

But that's exactly what's in the interview, unless we assume Tsurumaki was talking about things in an unconnected manner. I mean, why would he elaborate on Anno having hangups with how he (Tsurumaki) wanted to portray Shinji in Break and what was the difference between how he wanted to do it and how Anno wanted to have it done if there is no real connection between his anecdote and his explanation?

What I meant was that Anno dismissing Tsurumaki may had to do with lots of factors and reasons and it may not be entirely to do with Shinji's portrayal in NME vs NGE. But definitely Anno could be thinking of something different for Shinji in NME comapred to NGE -- at the end if he is really using Shinji again as a key alter-ego of himself he may think he needs to retain more control of his portrayal in NME.

[Kendrix]

But it's a lie.

It sure isn't. Whatever they brought back in episode 23, it wasn't the character most the audience had grown to love.
And even if that's just my interpretation, what you just posted has nothing to do with the movie we're talking about.

Remember Anno going "Oh fuck, I've made them so truly communicate far too early! well, let's continue with Asuka untill I get more Ideas..." after ep 6? If ep 6 was already considered communication here, I doubt that all the interaction is Rebuild was any different.
What you call "actively refusing her self-perceptions" is him displaying some understanding of her and trying to cheer her up.
Shinji himself is the best proof of how self-perceptions can be twisted by various issues, he'd understand a lonely girl's feelings of insignificance very well.
If you got the impression that your friends saw themselves as less than they are, you'd go and tell them that this isn't the case. No need to read any more into it.

Also, Gendo despising Rei...?
WTF?
That doesn't have anything to do with anything we saw in either continuity.
Yeah, he is willing to use her, but it's Gendo, he's extremly pragmatic, he'd use just about anyone.
I'd understand it if you'd interpret that as him not caring enough about her (Which doesn't mean his caring is nonexistant - Fuyutsuki even calls him out on it. He gave her the Name he'd have given his own daughter.) but despising her?
Even going by the interpretation that he just sees her as a tool and doesn't give a damn about her as a person, that =/= active dislike.

[Jornophelanthas]

But it's a lie.

Again, Shinji is refusing to deal with the reality of Rei. He is projecting his return-to-gestation dreams onto her. To use ep16's terminology, the only Rei he is considering is the Rei inside his own mind. He hasn't even begun to consider Rei as seen by others, he actively refuses to consider Rei's self-perceptions, and most critically he hasn't realized that the Rei in his mind is just another mother he made up because he couldn't deal with the world.

What do you mean by "the reality of Rei"?

If you mean her origins, her likely-non-human nature, or the likely existence of Rei clone bodies, then Shinji is not refusing to deal with that, because he has no reason to know about any of that.
Yes, she drops clues about her not living a normal life, like saying that she can't live outside of her aquarium, just like the tropical fish. Yes, this is a direct nod to the viewers to call back images of the "Reiquarium" from NGE. But to any person who has no reason to suspect she is an alien-hybrid-clone abomination (which includes Shinji) this simply means that she feels incapable of dealing with the big bad world outside of the sheltered life of NERV.
You see the same thing in Rei's comment of "Please leave me, I can be replaced" as he is clawing through the 10th Angel's core. To the viewers, this is a possibly foreshadowing of the introduction of Rei clones later on. But in Shinji's ears, she is admitting that she has such low self-esteem that nobody will even miss her if she dies.

Of course, both interpretations are true, in a way.
The "foreshadowing of Rei's mysterious nature" interpretation is the most rational one, but it is based on the assumption of omniscience ("Oh yeah, we already know she has clones, big deal."). But if you only subscribe to this, you are forgetting another simple truth:
The "Rei expressing her feelings of (lack of) self-worth" interpretation is equally valid. New to Rebuild is Rei expressing how she feels about being a sheltered genetic science project with a bunch of spare parts and no ostensible purpose to exist outside of piloting Evangelions for Gendo.

We, the jaded and cynical audience can easily stick to the first interpretation without caring for the second one. Shinji's point of view is refreshing and touching, because he only has access to the second interpretation. And what's more, he is the only person in the world who apparently has this opinion about Rei. Because the only other person close to her, Gendo, seems unable to care much about people's feelings (including his own).
Shinji sees in Rei a kindred spirit, because he sees that she is wrestling with the same issues of low self-esteem and feeling lost in the world, and he sympathizes with her for that reason, expressing it in small kindnesses, like cooking for her.
Rei, in turn, sees in Shinji the first person ever to bother with her enough to show her some small kindesses. Sure, Gendo is present and possibly even supportive, but only in a cold, distant, figurehead-like capacity. (For example, it would never cross Gendo's mind that Rei might like eating real food). Even if Gendo is a constant familiar presence in her life, he is a purely rational presence, while it is Shinji who first introduces her to human emotions. It is around Shinji that Rei learns how to deal with her emotions.

So I disagree that Shinji "refuses to deal with the reality of Rei". In fact, I even argue that Shinji is the only one who actually sees the reality of Rei.

---
As a final, more general moral to this post, I would like to refer to a psycho-analytical theory by Carl Jung (which was explicitly used in Episode 26 of NGE / EoTV as a major argument that caused Shinji to reject Instrumentality):

By treating other people as individuals, they become individuals. And by treating other people as individuals, I become an individual. If there are no others, there can be no me.

(Through being treated as a person with feelings, Rei becomes a person with feelings. By treating Rei as a person with feelings, Shinji becomes a person with feelings. Paradoxically, by affirming Rei's individuality, Shinji constitutes both his own and her individuality. By reciprocating, Rei does the same.)

[Kendrix]

By treating other people as individuals, they become individuals. And by treating other people as individuals, I become an individual. If there are no others, there can be no me.

This sounds pretty much like what we heard in episode 26, so that's the sort of philosophy you'd expect em to follow.

Thank you, I agree with most things in your post, you explained it all brilliantly. If Rei was all plot and no character, if she was really an emotionless, replacable mechanical part that can't return affection, no one would care about her.

The "fun" in "cold" characters comes from the defrosting process, from the spark of humanity in there, from imagining yourself in the position of the defroster, I guess. We all like to feel needed, and we all like the thought that we might recieve love and protection in return for our efforts - not everyone's gonna love us, but if you don't believe in the possibility that someone might end up loving you, you wouldn't bother.
That's the sort of feeling this character archetype taps into, as EoE puts it, "The hope that people can understand each other".
As her voice actor puts it, the beauty of Rei comes from the fact that she has feelings that are hers alone, despite being a clone, despite being an angel, despite having been raised in a lab.


I'd only like to note two things:

a) That it wouldn't be right to say that Gendo provided no emotional imput at all (he did, and that, too, was reciprocated, you see her visibly act different around him)
Which doesn't mean I'm denying that said input was fairly limited.
Gendo doesn't have much left to give, and he has a pretty icy exterior himself - I'd even go as far as saying that this is where she picked it up, except its more extreme in her case because he had a normal-ish life before it all. If you pay close attention, you'd notice that she picked up a lot of her mannerisms/body language from him.
You can see her doing the pose in the classroom, and he also has a tendency to sit next to and stare out of windows, as we see the few times he gets on a plane and/or train.
And of course, he, too is one of the people that need her for their plans/, that's why he created her in the first place, so even if she knows and appreciates that he's attached to her, Rei could never say for sure that he likes her for being her/knows that this attachment is somehow tied to her performing her function/allways knows that in the end, he will have her perform the function she was created for. (Hence, "I'm not getting preferred treatment from anyone.")
That puts her relationship with Shinji in a very different league/allows him to know/influence her on a different level, because he doesn't get any profit from being nice to her.

b)Also, Rei being unhappy about thinking she's a replacable piece of machinery isn't exactly new to Rebuild. She didn't say it in such a way because they never walked past any aquariums in old!NGE, but even Kensuke (ep 14) noticed... If not anything else, her inner monologues should have made it obvious; Remember Anno's comment about how she's first and foremost "a bitterly unhappy young girl with little sense of presence."

[Jornophelanthas]

@Kendrix:

a) I agree with you that Gendo has some emotional attachment to Rei, but you also agree with me that Gendo is not the best teacher of social interactions. Gendo is a harsh and (occasionally) fair taskmaster to Rei, a slightly less aloof version of the distant father figure he is to Shinji.
For Gendo's part, I believe his emotional attachment to Rei is mostly (but not entirely) involuntary and unconscious, and caused by her resemblance to Yui. He must have known this from the start, of course, but not his own emotional reaction to it. The restaurant scene shows how, when Rei asks Gendo for something entirely outside his comfort zone, her resemblance to Yui causes him to grant the favor anyway.

b)What is new to Rebuild is that someone (Shinji) picks up on Rei's unhappiness, and acts on it. This is a direction in potentially fruitful direction in character development that NGE lacked. (The NGE Shinji-Asuka relationship took some steps in this direction, but ultimately crashed and burned, then got reborn from the ashes in EoE's final scene, only to be set on fire again.) If anything, this makes Rebuild-Shinji more likeable than NGE-Shinji, or at least EoE-Shinji.

[SaltyJoe]

So I disagree that Shinji "refuses to deal with the reality of Rei". In fact, I even argue that Shinji is the only one who actually sees the reality of Rei.

While it's certainly true that Shinji can't refuse something he doesn't really grasp, it's also important to note the implication here: he knows next to nothing about Rei. So how can he see the "reality" of Rei when all he has of her in his mind is a surface level impression mixed with a helping of his own issues? And i'm not even talking about the Oedipal underscore: like you said, Shinji sees a similarity between his and Rei's lot in life, seeing something of a soul mate in her. But is it really that simple?

When assessing whether a character's perception of another character is "correct" i think it's fair to take into consideration the additional things we, the audience know compared to the character whose correctness is in question. And even using only the clues we were given in NME, from the bondage tube sessions with Gendo to her apparent need for medical attention, it's a pretty easy assumption to make that the peculiarities of Rei's existence run deeper than simply having low self-esteem. Quite bluntly, Shinji's image of Rei is probably more wrong than right.

And then he takes that image and builds it up into something grandiose and bloated that's probably even farther away from Rei's reality than what he had before. Much like how he blindly jumped to accept Kaworu in Episode 24, without ever questioning the hows, whys and whats. Kaworu never lied to Shinji, Shinji turned him into a lie he told to himself, and now he is doing the same with Rei.

Also, before anyone jumps my throat: nothing i said diminishes the authenticity of any emotions Rei has. I merely argued that Shinji doesn't really know where she is coming from, both in a literal and in a figurative sense.

EDIT:
Typo, that's now quoted by SSD. Screw my typing.

[Sailor Star Dust]

I merely argued that Shinji doesn't really knows where she is coming from, both in a literal and in a figurative sense.

Yep. I agree with everything you said. I'm repeating myself from other threads, but I really hope in 3.0, Shinji and Rei will be accepting of each other from their time in Eva-01 (whether [pseudo-]sibling relationship occurs, Rei's 3rd incarnation makes the scene one way or another, or something else happens) instead of Shinji pushing Rei away out of fear (at least he accepted her at the end of EoE, but).

Both NGE-Kaworu and NME-Rei* have all sorts of weirdness about them (regardless of what NME-Rei represents at this point: another Adam, or still Lilith, or just a part of Yui, or something else), but even if Shinji doesn't understand it, it's no excuse for him to push the people he cares about. Don't get me wrong, obviously the weirdness is hard for Shinji/lots of people to handle, but after the initial shock, some progression on his end WOULD be nice. The next step after deciding to live on and accepting/loving himself (assuming he learns that EoTV/EoE lesson in Eva-01 instead of later in 3.0 or 4.0) is accepting/loving others. Of course, in Eva, that's not so easy with personal demons and Seele's/Gendo's batshit insane plans. (Assuming NME-Gendo wants 3I and HIP in some form to reunite again with Yui.)

*Let's face it, so far both NME-Rei and NGE-Kaworu shape up to mean the same things to Shinji, a safe person for him to turn to. 3.0 and 4.0 might break that pattern in some way or another, of course.

[Jornophelanthas]

While it's certainly true that Shinji can't refuse something he doesn't really grasp, it's also important to note the implication here: he knows next to nothing about Rei. So how can he see the "reality" of Rei when all he has of her in his mind is a surface level impression mixed with a helping of his own issues?

But what is this "reality of Rei" that you find so important? Is there any character in Evangelion who is able to know the "reality of Rei"? Is there any character in Evangelion who is able to know the "reality" of any other character? Is there any person in real life who is able to know the "reality" of any other person?

My impression is that you set your standards far too high. Interaction between people is NOT only meaningful if they know each other's deepest secrets and emotions.

Instead, people just act as the feel is most appropriate. That's what Shinji does. That's what Rei does. And acting not only allows them to acquire an impression of each other (and of themselves), but it also changes them.

If you were told that Shinji possesses personality trait X, and he consistently acts in a way that is totally contrary to X, would you still believe that he possesses personality trait X?

Shinji sees a similarity between his and Rei's lot in life, seeing something of a soul mate in her. But is it really that simple?

It's almost that simple.

All Evangelion pilots have identity issues, and each of them identifies with piloting Evangelions, for various reasons:
- Shinji pilots because he believes that if he does what he is told, he will be loved (most notably by Gendo).
- Rei pilots because she believes that her purpose in life is to do what she is told, and she is being told (by Gendo) to pilot.
(- Asuka pilots because she seeks the praise of other people for being the best at something, mistaking praise for love.)
(- Mari pilots because she appears to enjoy doing so.)

Shinji and Rei are both unhappy about piloting. Shinji is unhappy because he does not receive the love he is yearning for. Rei is unhappy because she is denied personhood (without fully understanding what she is missing, by the way).
Shinji acts towards Rei as if she is a kindred spirit to him. Rei responds as if he is a kindred spirit to her. Through this reciprocated attitude, they become kindred spirits, because those acts changes their own social identities.

The Jung-ian moral of Evangelion is that people create their own identities through their dealings with others.
Before interacting with one another, Shinji and Rei were both brooding loners, pondering who they were. Which is exactly the cause of their identity crisis.
By interacting with one another, they start shaping themselves, without realizing it. Still, their identity issues are not yet resolved, because a complete identity requires interaction with more than a single other.
Which is symbolized by their union in Unit-01's core representing the end of humanity (and identity): two individuals merging into a single identity stops being an identity. They have become TOO close, and need to let in the rest of the world in between them, in order to continue being individuals.

(While I prefer the term "kindred spirit" over "soulmate" because I don't believe Rebuild 2.0 shows any romantic exhange between them, that is not the point I want to make.)

---

The main point where I disagree with you is that I believe that (at least in Evangelion) IDENTITY is created for 100% through social means, while you appear to believe that IDENTITY has a core that can be completely separated from any (social) dealings with others.

[Kendrix]

But Rei does have feelings of loneliness and low self-esteem.

Being an alien clone is only a metaphor, because everything has to be bigger and more exiting in TV land. There aren't any alien clones in RL, but there are tons of "bitterly unhappy young girls" (again, remember that quote and the "above anything else" it contains.) who feel insignificant and have trouble conveying their feelings to others/don't quite know how interaction works, and those are what the series actually wants to say something about.
Rei isn't your normal socially inept schoolgirl, but that's like saying normal uber ambitious girls with an ulhealthy drive to perfection can't be compared to Asuka because few of those have finished college at 13 and seen their mothers go mad and kill themselves, and that Shinji can't be compared to your normal brooding teenager because those aren#t forced to pilot big giant mechas.

Shinji would understand something about some lonely girl because he knows what it feels like - pretty much affter he aquired some buddies for himself, he starts wondering why that chick over there is still all alone.


The point of Rei's character is that she is more than her origin story, and Rei-the-individual is, save for Misato, one of the persons re!Shinji has most interacted with. You might as well claim that he doesn't know fuck about Touji and Kensuke.

[Sailor Star Dust]

I believe that (at least in Evangelion) IDENTITY is created for 100% through social means, while you appear to believe that IDENTITY has a core that can be completely separated from any (social) dealings with others.

I think it's very telling that in EoE, Lilith becomes Rei instead of Rei becoming Lilith. (Which is a logical progression of Rei's fears/concerns in TV25 about her identity and interactions with others.) Identity and interactions with others shape who you are.

[Kendrix]

I think it's very telling that in EoE, Lilith becomes Rei instead of Rei becoming Lilith. (Which is a logical progression of Rei's fears/concerns in TV25 about her identity and interactions with others.) Identity and interactions with others shape who you are.

You could see Rei IIIs monologue in ep 25 as a debate on that.
Rei II used to hold the belief that interactions are all that form her, but she was in fact very afraid of losing herself ("You fear that you will dissapear from the minds of others if another exist" = No one will remember Rei Ayanami the individual, because "That's actually Lillth" or "That's actually Yui.") But on the other hand, the bonds she formed were aknowdledged to be very real.
So neither factor makes the other unimportant.
And there's a third factor that is often overlooked: Human free will.
With the same genetics and the same memories, Rei III arrived at a different conclusion, namely, that she hates Gendo and wants to go back to Lillith... (Rei I: *representing nature on the naturevs. nurture angle here*"You're afraid blabla..."*in reference to Rei II's mindset*
Rei III: Uh, actually, I'm not.")
but even then, the effect of the bonds she formed remained, which lead to our dear Shinji getting asked what to do with the world. of course, there might be a point where the endings differ somewhere here (With EoTv!Rei just surrendering to her fate and EoE!Rei being more influenced by the memory of her past self having bonded with Shinji.), but that's a different can of worms.

In any case, there is more to Rei than just Lillith or Yui, and Shinji would know that "more".

[SaltyJoe]

The Jung-ian moral of Evangelion is that people create their own identities through their dealings with others.

(....)

The main point where I disagree with you is that I believe that (at least in Evangelion) IDENTITY is created for 100% through social means, while you appear to believe that IDENTITY has a core that can be completely separated from any (social) dealings with others.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but in Jung's theory of individuation, the idea of there being multiple layers of subconscious and semi-conscious components of the psyche that are inherent, inseparable parts of any person, untouchable, unaltarable by any outside force is present (the idea, i mean).

And as i see it, similar conepts are not unheard of in Evangelion: people have "souls" that form the basis of their identity, with "sacred places in which no one may enter" (roughly quoted from Epiosde 24). The identity which is shaped by interaction with others is merely the topmost layer of any persons true self.

I think it's logical: the process of developing an identity has to have a starting point, otherwise the individual would get lost, becoming an infinitely reshapable non-person. Individuality would lose it's meaning. Like Angels, people have cores, too.

So i would say that even in Evangelion, pepole have parts of their, um, "psychic makeup" which are given and can not be altered, and situations where conflict arises between the social self and the inner self are possible.

Maybe there's something worthy of further discussion in here.

Sidenote: so in English, soulmate has romantic connotations? I should really stop thinking in my own language when trying to express myself in another.

Being an alien clone is only a metaphor, because everything has to be bigger and more exiting in TV land. There aren't any alien clones in RL, but there are tons of "bitterly unhappy young girls" (again, remember that quote and the "above anything else" it contains.) who feel insignificant and have trouble conveying their feelings to others/don't quite know how interaction works, and those are what the series actually wants to say something about.
Rei isn't your normal socially inept schoolgirl, but that's like saying normal uber ambitious girls with an ulhealthy drive to perfection can't be compared to Asuka because few of those have finished college at 13 and seen their mothers go mad and kill themselves, and that Shinji can't be compared to your normal brooding teenager because those aren#t forced to pilot big giant mechas.

Besides what i wrote above: you are very right, but there is still the level of the narrative itself to be considered. In the fictional universe of Eva, Rei, Asuka and every other character are what they are, regardless of what they mean to us, and them dealing with their own fictional fates is what creates drama.

[Kendrix]

"souls" that form the basis of their identity, with "sacred places in which no one may enter" (roughly quoted from Epiosde 24).

Maybe it's just me, but regardless of wether you are right or wrong, I don't really see the connection there; Kaworu was talking about the AT-Field which has more to do with Humans (and Angels) being separate from each other than their inner makeup, as in, you can't completely understand 100% of someone else, but that's normal stuff one has to just deal with.
Don't see how the simple existance of souls immediately means "nature" trumps "nurture" here. First and foremost, their existance implies that the mental dimensions of a person (emotions, personality etc) exist separately from the body and can be detached after death or tangification, again, regardless of what has made the contets of that mental landscape what they are.

Again, if the entire point of Rei was to be miniature Yui or Miniature Lillith, just having Yui or Lillith would be enough.
There's gotta be some identity in there if she spent a sizeable chunk of her screentime fearing to lose it.
If you're telling me that you can't get to know a person by conversing with them, paying attention to what they do and say("she always seems to be alone","Don't say such sad things...", "I noticed you never eat lunch...", "She can only live in there? what did she mean?") and generally being their friend, and just, y'know, experiencing their personaltity, reaction patterns and decision making, then how do you do it?
Reading up someone's family history?
Are we nothing more than extensions of our parents?
Knowing 100% about someone is impossible (and stated as such in the show) of course there's gonna be some aspects of Rei that Shinji will never know, and vice versa, but that's supposed to be normal andwhatever he was doing, it seemed to be helping since she was saying hello to people, smiling a lot and doing stuff on her own accord and generally appearing to be much happier than she ever was before anyone was really interested in her for being Rei Ayanami.
I don't think we were meant to gather "That guy has no interest in who that girl really is" while seeing this film.
(For even Gendo wouldn't just have suddenly taken pity on a lonely little test subject if she hadn't looked like his wife - he ultimately seems to have come to see her as a daughter of sorts , but he wouldn't have begun to get attached to her if she didn't look like Yui and their interactions will always be colored by her being something he needs for his plans)

[Jornophelanthas]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but in Jung's theory of individuation, the idea of there being multiple layers of subconscious and semi-conscious components of the psyche that are inherent, inseparable parts of any person, untouchable, unaltarable by any outside force is present (the idea, i mean).

You probably know more about Jung than I do. All I know about his work is that the parts of Episode 26 (EoTV) that I referred to apparently show a parallel to Jung's work. I am merely repeating what I read on a (possibly) different forum many years ago. Perhaps I should stop doing that if I can't back it up with my own knowledge. (I know more about Freud and Lacan, though.)

people have "souls" that form the basis of their identity, with "sacred places in which no one may enter"[...]
I think it's logical: the process of developing an identity has to have a starting point[...]

These are two claims that you are mixing up:
1. People (and Angels) have souls (or cores).
2. The soul is the starting point of identity.

Claim 1 is not the problem here, as I believe this is more or less canon within both Evangelion universes.

Claim 2 is where I disagree. My opinion is that the soul is not the starting point of identity, but that which acquires identity. If identity is writing, then the soul is the paper (or the blank slate, if you are familiar with Locke). The soul in itself does not generate identity, but a soul is required for identity to come into being, through social interaction.
Souls are separated by AT Fields in the Evangelion universe. So if AT Fields are pierced and souls merge together, for example through Human Instrumentality, but I'm guessing Near-Third Impact for Shinji and Rei also counts (or perhaps they are the same), identity ends, because there is no separate soul left to attach it to.

If you express this position in a layer model, you get the following three layers:
1. The physical body.
2. The soul (or consciousness), which is the contents of the body, but not part of the body.
3. The identity (or memories of social interactions), which is the contents of the soul, but not part of the soul.

I think it's logical: the process of developing an identity has to have a starting point, otherwise the individual would get lost, becoming an infinitely reshapable non-person.

So what IS the starting point for identity, if its not some kind of pre-configured soul? I say it is a combination of biological predispositions and contingent events.
Biological predispotions = an inclination to react in certain ways to bodily stimulation;
(e.g. Rei likes the taste of miso soup. If she had hated the taste, Shinji would probably not have started making her lunches, and she would probably have preferred her pills over real food.)
Contingent events = how the world responds to one's actions;
(e.g. Rei asks Shinji how she should react after having survived the 6th Angel's blasts. He tells her to smile. And she smiles. It would have been very different if he had told her that e.g. "it's okay to cry now".)

This is how infants form their first memories. If they hurt themselves or are punished when attempting something, they acquire a bad memory, and associate negative emotions to similar situations. If their needs are satisfied or they are rewarded when attempting something, the memories , emotions and associations are positive.
As this cloud of memories and associations grows, certain patterns develop. These patterns are what identity is.

Returning to Rei and Shinji again, both appear to have had relatively few meaningful social interactions throughout their lives, which I believe is the cause of both appearing to have incomplete personalities/identities. With Rei being a more severe case than Shinji.
However, their social interactions add to both their personalities. Shinji's identity becomes that of a kind person, as he has never before been in a position to be kind to anyone. And Rei becomes sociable, starting to act independently upon her own desires, instead of passively doing nothing until ordered.

[SaltyJoe]

I think we veered into a tangent that's too far from the intentions of the thread. Maybe someday i'll get back on Jornophelanthas regarding what i think Eva's model is for a person and the development of a person, but for now...

If you're telling me that you can't get to know a person by conversing with them, paying attention to what they do and say("she always seems to be alone","Don't say such sad things...", "I noticed you never eat lunch...", "She can only live in there? what did she mean?") and generally being their friend, and just, y'know, experiencing their personaltity, reaction patterns and decision making, then how do you do it?
Reading up someone's family history?
Are we nothing more than extensions of our parents?

Indeed, the thread really took a sharp turn with this latest tangent. Let's take a few steps back. The basic state of affairs between Shinji and Rei is more blatant than to require such philosophical musings: it's the classic situation of two people being in some sort of relationship, but alas, one of them doesn't know that the other is a member of the royal family, a convict on the run, a hermaphrodite or really, fill in the blank with whatever you like. The uninformed party lacks vital information that, should it be revealed, would lead to a radical reevaluation of the relationship, regardless of the overall outcome (sometimes the girl scout can stay in love with the assassin, after all)*.

The danger in Shinji's situation here is that he placed a great amount of trust and attachment onto a person whose circumstances he knows very little about. This is the basic setup, and everything else said about this in the thread is mostly various people mining for subtext based on educated guesses regarding the identity of Rei and the character of Shinji.

*I can assert this to be the case so boldly because we, the audience were given ample clues about there being something up with Rei.