Shinji's portrayal in Eva 2.0/2.22

[Jornophelanthas]

His attitude from the onset is one that disavows himself of all responsibility. He doesn't care what happens to the world. Perhaps if he did care, he might have noticed everything that was happening around him and been able to do something about it.

The "I don't care about the world" attitude is troubling in another way. What point is there to saving Rei if no priority whatsoever is given to the world she must return to? This may anticipate what happens at the end, wherein Shinji -- upon retrieving Rei -- simply takes her in his arms and feels that all is well... despite (or, more likely, due to) being in the disembodied realm of the entry plug, cut off from all else.

Shinji has had trouble with the external world from the beginning, as explained through the hedgehog's dilemma. In fact, Shinji's external world up until halfway through 2.0 remains fairly limited, with him only interacting with Misato (mostly OK), Toji & Kensuke (good but superficial friends), Kaji (scary person), Asuka (to him, it's mostly sibling rivalry), and Rei. I'm not counting Mari. He hardly has any interest in others or interacting with them; the world outside his circle is utterly uninteresting to him.

So there are three concentric levels of Shinji's world:
1. Shinji's self or internal world - where his own consciousness resides and he is mostly lost with himself. Unit-01's entry plug should be seen as a part of this.
2. Shinji's social circle - the people he knows, interacts with and cares about (whether voluntarily or not).
3. The rest of the world - people he does not know, does not interact with and does not care about. This is the world Gendo, Fuyutsuki and SEELE deal with. And, up until now, also Kaworu.

Shinji arrived in Tokyo-3 with just level 1, his own self. He expanded that by piloting Unit-01, which became an extension himself. This also gave him a place in the social arena of Tokyo-3, which caused him to develop level 2. However, his social awareness does not extend to level 3 (yet).

Shinji's social circle (level 2) has been crumbling ever since Asuka was lost, causing him to withdraw from most of his other connections out of fear of being hurt again.
However, witnessing the loss of Rei drove him over the edge. In Shinji's point of view, Rei was one of the most important people in his level 2, and he was hurt greatly by witnessing her apparent death.
He reacted mostly instinctively, by doing the only thing he knows, and that is retreating back into himself (level 1), by piloting Unit-01.

And what does he do? He reaches outside of himself (and the core of his Evangelion) and pulls Rei back in. In other words, he takes a part of the world outside of him (Rei Ayanami) and includes this into his own self, his own consciousness, his own body (Unit-01's core and entry plug). Shinji explicitly withdraws from the world outside of himself, retreats back inside his own inner consciousness, and he takes Rei with him. In effect, he overidentifies with Rei to such an extent that he considers her to be a part of him.

This is a very Freudian metaphor for Shinji's retreat into immaturity, especially if you take into account all these allusions:
- Unit-01 holds the soul of Yui, his mother;
- The entry plug is a metaphor for the mother's womb;
- Rei is a clone or proxy for Yui, his mother;
- Rei is possibly connected to Lilith (or Adam), a thematical mother-figure for all of humanity - (WARNING: This is NGE-based argumentation seeping into Rebuild and therefore possibly incorrect.)
- Rei and Shinji form a mutual "mothering" relationship throughout Rebuild: on the one hand, Shinji feeds Rei, while on the other hand, Rei fiercely protects Shinji from Angels at her own expense.
One of Sigmund Freud's theories about the immature (newborn) child is that it overidentifies with the mother's nurturing, and considers the mother's body a part of itself. Weaning the infant from the mother and inducting it into the larger world is an inevitable part of growing up and becoming an adult, but requires great effort and inflicts great pain and suffering on the infant.

And this is exactly the opposite of what happens during Near-Third Impact. Shinji symbolically unbirths himself by retreating into his mother's womb (Unit-01's entry plug), forcefully claiming the personification of maternal nurture (Rei), drawing her back into himself (Unit-01's core).
And that is what Third Impact would also be: the unbirthing of humanity.

So why does Kaworu stop this?
One speculation is that Kaworu is the Freudian educator, who acts in Shinji's own interest by weaning him from his mother and forcing him to grow up, i.e. destroying Shinji's immediate happiness for his own good.
Another speculation (which I favor myself) is that Kaworu wants be the one to become unborn himself. This is especially poignant if you believe (like I do) that Kaworu has cold, self-destructive Lilith's soul in the Rebuild Universe, while it is Rei who has alien but strangely sympathetic Adam's soul.
However, this is speculation for another thread. Please do not discuss this Kaworu angle here, but elsewhere.

[Azathoth]

Five star post. To disregard your wishes and discuss Kaworu for a moment, though, I think his angle as "Freudian educator" is pretty obvious. He penetrates Shinji from behind, ffs.

[ONIAgent150]

Damn, knocked it out of the park, Jornophelanthas. I think I might rewatch the rebuilds with that analysis in mind.

[1731298478]

Shinji symbolically unbirths himself by retreating into his mother's womb (Unit-01's entry plug), forcefully claiming the personification of maternal nurture (Rei), drawing her back into himself (Unit-01's core).And that is what Third Impact would also be: the unbirthing of humanity.

Although, the 3I scenario at the end of 2.0 doesn't involve a return to the primordial sea of life along the lines of EoE, but the sacrifice of human life in order to give birth to a new and unprecedented form of existence.

My feeling is that the complexity of the scene is partially due to the fact that the meaning of Shinji's relationship to Rei changes over the course of NGE. The "oedipal" idea was apparently strongly emphasized in the early conception of the show, but when Anno actually made the first six episodes, it seems that he focused on "communication" as the theme and developed a story where Rei and Shinji would gradually reach out to one another. Later on the "oedipal" element re-emerged, and the Rei-Shinji relationship began to develop (or recover) its negative connotation. In EoE Rei apparently became associated with something like "instrumentality" and "rejection of the world."

It feels like, in 2.0., Anno follows the "negative" development of the Rei-Shinji relationship without yet abandoning the "positive" earlier theme of "communication." (Possibly, this was due to his having just remade the first six episodes, and having recently recreated the earlier dynamic.) In the final scene, the two aspects come directly into contact with one another, and the positive and negative aspects intertwine.

[Kendrix]

Then again, it was EoE which had that line that associated her with "The hope that people can understand each other" and during the entire TI scene, she sort of acts as the voice of reason ("Then what is your hand for?" "You're the one who got it wrong"... etc and that little sppech about dreams and reality....)

The Role she serves during most of the Rebuild movies is to spur Shinji into activity; Never mind the controversial end of 2.0, think the end of 1.0, how he goes and prepares a snack for her, thus actively reaching out to someone, how she tries to get him to sit at a table with his old man...

Note that Asuka can be a selfish, naive girl who does many things wrong and still represent "life" and make many very accurate criticisms about Shinji,

and that Gendo can be... well, Gendo, and still give Shinji a lesson about how he won't get whatever Result he desires without hard work and sacrifice.
I'm not saying the clone aspect isn't there; I'm saying that we shouldn't see anyone's role (including Shinji's) too one-sided; I don't think we can classify anyone except Seele as straight out "negative"

[Bagheera]

Oh wow, talk about bad timing on my part! Here I say "/thread" and Jorno comes by in the very next post and shows just how wrong I am! Nicely done, man. I think you're spot on in every detail (well, apart form the Lilith and Adam bits; think you're kinda batty there, but no matter.). I think that combined with Reichu's note that Shinji can be many things at once neatly sums up his portrayal in the NME.

[driftking18594]

*wall o' text*

I'm in the midst of planning out a post-2.0 fanfic, and this is one of the reasons that make me go back over it.

[Jornophelanthas]

Wow, I did not expect such praise for one post. Thank you all for that.

I have a few unconnected additions to or comments on my previous post, which could either spark some discussion, or some tangents that are perhaps suited for a different topic.

--- 1.
I would like to state that Shinji's "unbirthing" is still positive character growth for him. As has already been mentioned many times by many different people, the events in the second half of Rebuild 2.0 incite Shinji to abandon his indecisiveness and drive him to action. Without realizing it, Shinji picks up both Kaji's and Gendo's lessons on how to interact with the world, and shows that he is capable of decision (Kaji's "survivor's duty") and action (Gendo's perseverance).

Shinji makes an instinctive decision, acts on it, and follows through. Instead of running away from the world, he confronts the world and acts. (Nevermind that the action consists of the ultimate form of running away. Shinji was not aware of the effects on the rest of the world, nor did he care.)

--- 2.
I'm still unsure about the exact role Rei portrays in Rebuild. I've portrayed her as the personification of maternal nurture, since that attitidue is what defines Shinji's and Rei's mutual relationship. However, because the nurturing IS mutual between them, she could just as well be his twin, which also has some merit given the fact that they both return to the same womb. And then there's the mystery about Rei's origins and our knowledge of how NGE treated Rei as a personification of the "mother of all humankind", which may or may not be applicable to Rebuild of Evangelion as well. Or perhaps she's all of the above.

However, this is material better suited for a discussion thread on "Portrayal of Rei in 2.0/2.22".

--- 3.
Kaworu's entrance into Shinji's social circle is sure to shake up Shinji's perception of the world outside himself, but it is too soon to tell which way it will go. I've posted a few rough interpretations above, but I've thought of another one, and I'm presenting it here.

Let's borrow another theory from Freud: the interactions between the Ego, Super-Ego and Id in the human psyche. (For those who require an explanation, see: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego[/url].)
Perhaps Kaworu will represent a Super-Ego role to Shinji's Ego, just as I've previously interpreted Mari as a personification of the Id towards Shinji (as argued here: [url]http://forum.evageeks.org/post/522280/Evangelion-30-Speculation/?highlight=#522280[/url]).

Of course, where this will go differs so wildly from NGE Episode 24, that it's impossible to tell how this will impact Shinji in Rebuild 3.0. Kaworu and Mari are presumably both fully-formed characters with their own motivations quite distinct from such a symbolic role. All we know at the moment is that 3.0 will include Kaworu descending the shaft to Terminal Dogma inside Unit-06, and presumably Shinji's involvement in that scene. (Otherwise, what's the point of the scene?)

(Edits: layout)

[symbv]

^ Quite a Freudian take on the ending. At first I have some reservations but your post above clarified it (particularly point 1). I think the whole thing can be read in several angles, and yours is a valid one too, though I am not really sure 3rd Impact will be like what you said (unbirth of humanity).

Shinji spent a good portion of time seething/stewing/generally being hurt at the world and it's cruelty before he engaged the 10th Angel. The bare, inarticulate emotions were there, and i don't see why we should assume that they disappeared at the click of a button. Your analysis only works if we forget the state he was in prior to his return to Eva. You just can't compartmentalize like this, unless we assume a breakdown of continuity in the character's progression.

Well, he was seething for various reasons so you should not mix it all up into just "inarticulate emotions". He went over there single-mindedly with the sole purpose of saving Rei. You should consider his emotion just before he decided to fight -- he was slumping and held no hope or expectation to himself, his father and the people around him, and this is precisely those emotions you mentioned above that crushed him. He turned it around into passion and energy when he again found his purpose. I don't see how it was so hard to understand.

The meta context shouldn't take precedence over the in-universe context of that sentence, though. It still has to mean something within the movies own world.

Well, I also explained the words within the context of the movie itself (you should go back and check my post again I would suggest). I mentioned the meta context ONLY to show you how the Japanese viewers see and read it. And I find it extremely insightful.

Note that i poointed out all the possible clues besides Ritsuko's dialog. Even if Ritsuko generalizes, everything else points towards Shinji, so much so that in this case, he could be seen as the representative of "human kind" in Ritsuko's statement.

Only your heart and soul said so. I don't see how "everything else" necessarily point to Shinji. Ritsuko may point to Shinji as representative of human kind, but it is not that clear and distinct as shown in 2.0, otherwise I believe I would read more about this when I check the discussion and analyses among the Japanese fans, who should not have inferior ability to read "obvious hints" from the anime than overseas viewers.

Pardon, i should have clarified: if there are blogs or fansites that include an in-depth description of Shinji's character ("I think Shinji is...." or so), what do they say about the qualities i mentioned if they mention anything at all? In other words, how would the typical Japanese Eva-fan describe Shinji in the context of my earlier question?

I think I have explained it already. As I said, it is all about Shinji's own emotion state and how he is dealing with people around him. They know Shinji is not a hero character, and showed weakness and tendency to go inward looking, but also understand him to be kind and well-meaning in general. There is simply no consideration or discussion of how he is to be judged on those qualities that seem so critical and important to you for a judgement of a character.

As for sekaikei: my knowledge about the term is flimsy to be sure, but if i got it correctly, one of the particular trademarks of the genre is that the mental/emotional state of the protganists (either the boy or the girl) can directly cause events of great magnitude in the so called "world". If this is correct, then it actually strengthens the argument about Shinji's psyche causing the impending Apocalypse.

It is not necessarily that. It can also be what the protagonist does - physical action that is, instead of emotional state. The key is that the protagonist mostly only deals with people close to him/her and because of his own power or artifacts he possesses the actions he did ultimately impacted a much larger world (perhaps the whole world). So here in 2.0 if Shinji has triggered 3rd Impact unintentionally, it still follows the sekai-kei formula. It does not really need his psyche to want a 3rd Impact for it to be called sekai-kei.

It's hard for me to shake the feeling that the structure was very intentional, but the typical response seems to chalk the juxtaposition up to coincidence or incidence -- in other words, Shinji's desire to save Rei somehow triggered 3I in some mysterious way, but past that the things we see have nothing to do with each other.

Or Shinji's "action" to save Rei somehow triggered 3I in mysterious way.

symbv: I'm frankly surprised that these items haven't gotten more mileage in Japanese circles. Perhaps it's just because I misunderstand their cultural history of collectivism and the significance thereof, but even so... Outwardly, it seems like we're dealing with role reversal, with the westerners picking Shinji apart for -- to put it in simplistic terms -- being selfish and focusing on the one instead of the many.

I was actually expecting to find some speculations of what they thought really happened at the end of 2.0 but besides a bunch of "yes, Shinji finally got fired up and did something great on his own initiative" remarks I could not find much theorizing. I may be able to find something if I keep on digging, but at the moment I have a feeling that those fans want to keep open the guesswork in the hope that subsequent movie will shed more light on what really had happened there. And I don't think it has anything to do with collectivism -- it is not as if all those fans have to restrain themselves about what they can or want to write on their blogs about a piece of anime until they have consulted everybody else and given permission to write.

I think the message is clear -- following your own path without consideration for the well-being of others can be disastrous. It all goes back to NGE's central theme, that being communication: you have to talk to people. You have to listen to what they're trying to say to you. You can't just do what you want.

I am not sure the message is that clear because it depends on what are "others". Even in EoE/NGE, the message for Shinji seems to be communication to people around him and except for a few moments of the RL footage, when the target is shifted to the viewers, it is mostly done without touching much of the wider world or its well-being. It may be the same in NME the new movies.

The problem isn't that Shinji's goals are wrong, or that he's a bad person, or anything like that. The problem is that he's short-sighted and only thinking about what he wants, heedless of the consequences of his actions. This is fairly obvious, as Salty indicates. The Western reading probably goes too far with this, as it marries this assessment to a judgment of his character (something that goes beyond the intent of the film as shown IMO). But the implications of his actions and their consequences are impossible to ignore.

I actually think the movie ignore, maybe not entirely but still to quite a large extent, of the consequence thing. Yes, Shinji overdrove Unit-01 so that he could reach out to Rei, but was he ever been warned that doing so would awaken Unit-01? Or triggered something terrible (like 3I)? No, instead he was only told to be careful about his own safety. He was indeed heedless of what could come out of his single-minded actions, but I would caution against linking it directly to his wanting 3I to happen or even he was fully aware of what could have happened when he plunged into his rescue mission. I would think that the worst consequence Shinji thought could be the death of himself and destruction of Unit-01, perhaps causing collateral damages to the area nearby. Of course if he had known he would cause 3I, he might still want to go for the rescue, but since he did not know his action would cause 3I, I think it would be judgmental to call him guilty just because his action did cause 3I to start somehow

As for the inner world vs outer world, I have said that I interpreted it as a contrast of quiet reunion inside vs dramatic turmoils outside. It may be really like what Jornophelanthas said, with the inner being a retreat to womb, though I would rather see they are being trapped more than Shinji chose not to come out. But anyway, Shinji's brief respite should be soon broken by Kaworu's keenness to "make Shinji happy this time".

[esselfortium]

Since there's a lot of discussion going on about Jorno's post, I am going to point out a couple of mistakes and nitpicks in it.

Asuka (to him, it's mostly sibling rivalry)

There's no evidence of anything remotely like a "sibling rivalry" between her and Shinji in the film. They're not competing with one another for the affection of any particular authority figure, and in fact, suggesting any sort of rivalry or sibling relationship between them at all is inaccurate, given that they've only known each other at all for an apparently rather short time and have only really interacted once or twice since meeting.

Shinji's social circle (level 2) has been crumbling ever since Asuka was lost, causing him to withdraw from most of his other connections out of fear of being hurt again. However, witnessing the loss of Rei drove him over the edge.

His social circle actually hasn't crumbled at all. The only alleged member of his social circle to be affected was Asuka, who he had next to no social interaction with to begin with. While such an event would in any circumstances be traumatic to witness or participate in, the fact remains that his support network still exists in its entirety: it is Shinji who abandons them, not vice versa. The discrepancy between the reality of his social situation and how Shinji seems to perceive it (everyone he cares about has abandoned him), once it is noticed, only serves to make his "retreat into immaturity" that you described even more apparent.

I do agree with the conclusion that Shinji is diving headfirst into his mother's basement, mind you -- I just think the signs of it begin to appear even sooner than you suggest.

[Jornophelanthas]

Allow me to respond to some direct replies.

^ Quite a Freudian take on the ending. At first I have some reservations but your post above clarified it (particularly point 1). I think the whole thing can be read in several angles, and yours is a valid one too, though I am not really sure 3rd Impact will be like what you said (unbirth of humanity).

I'm not sure either what Third Impact will be. Or even if it will occur at all in one of the next two movies. I should have clarified this, but what I meant was Near-Third Impact, as it took place at the end of 2.0.

My logic for this argument this:
- Shinji was reversing his own birth.
- Apparently, the Evangelions' ultimate purpose is to fulfill the ultimate wish of humanity, and specifically the pilot of the Evangelion.
- Thus, (Near-)Third impact was reversing the birth of humanity.

If at some later point, Third Impact will happen for real, its shape, impact and repercussions will likely depend entirely on the ultimate wish of the Evangelion pilot who initiates it, whether it's a more mature Shinji or someone else.

There's no evidence of anything remotely like a "sibling rivalry" between her and Shinji in the film. They're not competing with one another for the affection of any particular authority figure, and in fact, suggesting any sort of rivalry or sibling relationship between them at all is inaccurate, given that they've only known each other at all for an apparently rather short time and have only really interacted once or twice since meeting.

I've oversimplified and have not expanded on any of the social relationships I mentioned. I admit that the Shinji-Asuka relationship is complex, not necessarily because of the way it is portrayed, but mostly because of the various ways in which it could have developed. "Sibling rivalry" was an inadequate term. The closest two-word correctino I can offer is "peer relationship".
Also, note that I am emphasizing how Shinji experienced the relationships. Asuka's side is not relevant to my post or this thread.

Ultimately, this is a nitpick, though, with no impact on my main argument.

His social circle actually hasn't crumbled at all. The only alleged member of his social circle to be affected was Asuka, who he had next to no social interaction with to begin with. While such an event would in any circumstances be traumatic to witness or participate in, the fact remains that his support network still exists in its entirety: it is Shinji who abandons them, not vice versa. The discrepancy between the reality of his social situation and how Shinji seems to perceive it (everyone he cares about has abandoned him), once it is noticed, only serves to make his "retreat into immaturity" that you described even more apparent.

I agree with you that the crumbling of Shinji's social circle is mostly Shinji's doing. (Apart from events beyond the control of any character, i.e. the circumstances of the 9th Angel attack. And even the Angel itself is not to blame for the entire thing.)

Where I must disagree, however, is that I believe Asuka is important to Shinji, because they've not only reconciled and gained each other's respect (the "bedroom conversation" scene), but they've also gotten used to living together (the "bickering married couple" scene). I know I interpret these scenes differently than you do, so I'm not going into that discussion now because it would probably derail this thread into an Asuka-topic. (However, we agree that the Shinji-Asuka relationship was badly paced in this part of the movie.)

Also, even if Shinji and Asuka share only few interactions on-screen, the viewers are made aware that they are living together, and that weeks pass between the 8th and 9th Angel attacks. From this information, the viewers are to deduce that Asuka is a part of Shinji's life, and that Shinji acknowledges that by getting into the habit of preparing her lunch. (She gets mad at him because he forgot one day.)

My point is that Asuka is an important person to Shinji, even if we can't agree on the exact nature of the relationship. Losing a person important to him (and considering himself guilty of that loss because Unit-01 was the instrument of losing Asuka) brought back the hedgehog's dilemma in Shinji's mind. Which resulted in him severing all ties with the other people he cared about, out of fear of getting hurt again if he were to lose anyone else. He is protecting himself from that by never having to see any of them again. (Which is also why he never said goodbye to Toji, Kensuke, or Rei.)
This severing of all ties by Shinji is not motivated by a feeling of abandonment, but of a feeling of betrayal: Shinji trusted in the people he cared about not to hurt him, and they forced him to do something terrible to someone else he cared about.
Yes, I'm saying "they", not just "Gendo", because Shinji does not specifically blame Gendo. He irrationally blames Gendo along with all the rest of the human race, including Misato (who is quite vulnerable to this, because she already blames herself). In this respect, Shinji is a typical teenager: raging against the world because he doesn't know who to blame.

(And then he witnesses the apparent death of Rei and is affected greatly by it, because this was exactly the kind of thing he had been trying to avoid seeing or caring about. And it caused him to lose his fragile composure completely.)

So YES, Shinji is himself the cause for the decline in his social circle, but NO, it does not begin before Shinji loses Asuka. It is not so much an inevitable shortcoming of Rebuild-Shinji's personality, but rather the effect of his inability to deal with loss and mourning.

If you see warning signs earlier than the 9th Angel attack and Asuka accident, it is either subjective interpretation, or foreshadowing by the director. (An interesting example in this regard would be the Yui memorial scene at the very start of 2.0. This scene is open to a LOT of interpretations.)

[SaltyJoe]

Well, he was seething for various reasons so you should not mix it all up into just "inarticulate emotions". He went over there single-mindedly with the sole purpose of saving Rei. You should consider his emotion just before he decided to fight -- he was slumping and held no hope or expectation to himself, his father and the people around him, and this is precisely those emotions you mentioned above that crushed him. He turned it around into passion and energy when he again found his purpose. I don't see how it was so hard to understand.

Okay, lets put this into the clearest terms possible. After the Unit-03 battle, Shinji was angry. Other things too, sure, but he was very angry. Angry at his father, Eva, Nerv. Now, what is there to suggest that this anger disappeared when he returned to fight the 10th Angel? I don't see anything to imply that at all. He is still furious, he is just directing his rage. He found some reason to take action, but under what reading does that mean that his prior emotions simply vanished? Why would his desire to save Rei suddenly mean that he isn't angry at the world, especially when the (temporary) loss of Rei is another blow dealt by said world?

Well, I also explained the words within the context of the movie itself (you should go back and check my post again I would suggest).

I merely pointed out that the meta angle is irrelevant to the in-universe workings we are discussing.

Only your heart and soul said so. I don't see how "everything else" necessarily point to Shinji.

Obviously, i saw the mirror image of my mean, mean heart in the movie. Oh, how clever. But let me ask it like this: who is the character who is taking active action in the scene? Who is the one who is getting his wishes granted? Who is the one the scene is about?

I think I have explained it already. As I said, it is all about Shinji's own emotion state and how he is dealing with people around him. They know Shinji is not a hero character, and showed weakness and tendency to go inward looking, but also understand him to be kind and well-meaning in general. There is simply no consideration or discussion of how he is to be judged on those qualities that seem so critical and important to you for a judgement of a character.

They are not all that important to me, i just wanted to do at least some comparisons with an, albeit limited, statistically irrelevant, sample of the Japanese viewers opinions on Shinji and this bit of insight from the CRC:

--- Certainly, owing to the "magic" of the television image, we have the impression that, even though Shinji is going [somewhere] with all his might, we don't know where he is.

Tsurumaki: But if we observe carefully, we feel confused. Even at that [earlier] time I realized that much. My interpretation was that, even though Shinji was saying he wouldn't pilot, he also understood that he had to pilot. As for his saying "I won't pilot," I believed that if he wasn't saying it he would certainly pilot. [? 4] As a result, although he was saying "I won't pilot, I won't pilot," his body was going towards the centre of the battle. Even though he came as far the Geofront, where the battle was raging, he was still saying "I won't pilot, I won't pilot." Then Unit-02's head falls down, and Unit-00 is damaged, and so on; and when [Shinji] goes outside Kaji is there, and they have a famous conversation. Finally, Shinji gives up and pilots, deciding that, "as I thought, I have to pilot... I knew it, but it was just as I expected." That sort of development was how I interpreted things.

[? 4] だから 「乗らないぞ」と言うのは、そうしないと乗ってしまうからだと。

--- That's also my interpretation, and, I think, the interpretation of countless viewers....

Tsurumaki: [There must be a] "however," right? When I was doing the storyboards for "Break," and went to confirm with Anno-san that portraying Shinji like this was good, I was emphatically told, "What are you talking about, Makki? This is completely wrong!" What a shock I received! (Laughs) Anno-san continues, "Shinji really doesn't want to pilot, and that's what he says." From my point of view Shinji's declaration "I won't pilot" was half a hate campaign against his father, a child and "da-da" type situation. It was the same as a child who had quarrelled with his father saying "If that's the case, I won't study!" Emotionally, Shinji doesn't want to pilot, but he understands that he has to. To that extent I had thought he was a "grown-up" character.

However, when I seriously thought over what Anno-san had said, I understood that Anno-san's Shinji is not like that. I understood that he was a character who, if he feels he doesn't want to pilot, absolutely will not pilot. Shinji is the exact opposite of what the conventional impression of him is. He is not cowardly and indecisive; he is obstinate and doesn't pay any mind to other people.

--- In short, a character who will not pilot, no matter what?

Tsurumaki: Exactly right. According to Anno-san, "He pilots because he wants to pilot, and as long as he doesn't want to pilot he won't pilot." But I remained unsatisfied. "[That would be acceptable if this were a trvial argument over something like studying. ???5] However, if he doesn't pilot Eva, humanity will be destroyed, Misato will be in great difficulties, Rei Ayanami will have to undertake a suicide attack, and so on; even if he knows this, will he still not pilot Eva?" When I again tried to ask Anno-san this, he replied, "Because Shinji is extremely angry there, his heart is closed and he doesn't notice those things."

[??? 5] 勉強みたいな些細な話ならまだいいけど、

When I was told that, I understood the irrational speech and conduct that could be sometimes seen in Anno-san! (Laughs) In short, he's someone who, once he starts to say he doesn't like something, absolutely will not budge. From my perspective, at such times Anno-san is obstinate to what feels like an abnormal extent.

Tsurumaki mentions a conventional view of Shinji, and i wanted to sample that. Out of interest. But obviously, to do that, the opinions should be filtered to questions of intereset relative to the interview's contents.

"Thugh tittes"? Is it "though titties"? Whatever, Shinji was given a dangerous "weapon" without any explanation about its exact nature by scheming and exploiting adults, now you pretend that in order to be an "adult" he should take "responsibility" for something that others probably tricked him in doing? Let's not forget that the final outcome was exactly the same that Gendo and Fuyutsuki were expecting, Shinji is the exploited victim here, not the irresponsible whining child who almost caused a disaster because of his egoistic desires.

He still made a choice, one with consequences. Facing tohse is what taking repsonsibility means, at least in my view. Has actions had effects that he can (not) redo (my idea as to the meaning of the title of the next movie), so he has to acknowledge them and live with them.

And it's "tough titties". Blessed be those who never make typos.

[Sailor Star Dust]

The oedipal themes were previously discussed in a few different places for folks that want to continue that discussion:

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/9575/Oedipus-motif-for-Shinji/

A specific post by Muggy, though the thread itself got locked: http://forum.evageeks.org/post/360481/Shinji-20-an-improvement/#360481

(I can't find Chrad's "dive headfirst into mother's basement" post or his similarly-related "NME as a response to TTGL (while TTGL is considered "an apology" for Eva)" posts...Gah.)

[Seele00TextOnly]

...

[Jornophelanthas]

A specific post by Muggy, though the thread itself got locked: http://forum.evageeks.org/post/360481/Shinji-20-an-improvement/#360481

Here it is.

Interesting. I had not read that, since it preceded my finding this forum.

[Bagheera]

Here it is.

Aw man, Chrad nailed it too. That last line was particularly apt.

[symbv]

^ His interpretation is valid within 2.0 too. But if his interpretation turns out to be true or someone else's it would depend on how things play out in the subsequent movies. Personally I do not see it as a satire, much less that the movie expects to tell us there was nothing that can be done for Rei so-called "death" there.

Okay, lets put this into the clearest terms possible. After the Unit-03 battle, Shinji was angry. Other things too, sure, but he was very angry. Angry at his father, Eva, Nerv. Now, what is there to suggest that this anger disappeared when he returned to fight the 10th Angel?

I did not say his anger had gone. I just said that he turned his anger and frustration into doing something that he considered useful, and for a person he cared about. I think Jornophelanthas also said it quite clearly in his own way.

Why would his desire to save Rei suddenly mean that he isn't angry at the world, especially when the (temporary) loss of Rei is another blow dealt by said world?

Remember we are debating the cause of the 3rd Impact. My argument is that there was nothing to indicate that his mind was on anger at the world when he was trying to rescue Rei. Your only evidence so far is just the "damn the world" said by Shinji and on that I and HyperShinchan and Jornophelanthas all explained why it does not mean he was projecting his anger at the world during the rescue. I would say that his mind was fully committed to the thought of saving Rei - he had no time for other things, including the world and himself or any of his anger or blaming he held against others.

I merely pointed out that the meta angle is irrelevant to the in-universe workings we are discussing.

Since you said the words were for the audience, and then I found that insight from many Japanese viewers, I think it was worthwhile to share it in the forum. At least I think the mirror is working its magic in the discussion we have here.

But let me ask it like this: who is the character who is taking active action in the scene? Who is the one who is getting his wishes granted? Who is the one the scene is about?

Did Shinji successful rescue of Rei mean someone/something granted his wish? Why could it not be interpreted that Eva awakening or 3rd Impact (neither of which I think Shinji actively wanted to make happen) as some wish granted instead?

Again, I want to say the most important thing about sekai-kei is that we usually don't see the viewpoint from the broader world and how the broader world fares usually has little impact or influence to the protagonist and how he affects everything around him. It does not mean that just because some disaster happens it must be the protagonist's willing it (which is basically your argument of why it has to be Shinji who intentionally caused 3rd Impact in 2.0)

They are not all that important to me, i just wanted to do at least some comparisons with an, albeit limited, statistically irrelevant, sample of the Japanese viewers opinions on Shinji and this bit of insight from the CRC:

Tsurumaki mentions a conventional view of Shinji, and i wanted to sample that. Out of interest. But obviously, to do that, the opinions should be filtered to questions of intereset relative to the interview's contents.

It depends on if you want to talk about Shinji only in NME or you include Shinji in NME/EoE as well. The interview you quoted seems to be talking about Shinji in NGE. And for NGE, there are a lot of discussion of Shinji's character in Japanese blogs - views of cowardly and indecisive were not common; most of them believed that Shinji was determined to not listening to anybody because he was really upset. On the other hand, the discussion here is about the new movies NME, and on that there was much less discussion of that.

[SaltyJoe]

(...) your argument of why it has to be Shinji who intentionally caused 3rd Impact

No.

1., On Shinji actively wanting to end the world:

I think there's a bit of jumping the gun going on around here, as far as the "defence" interpreting what the "prosecution" is concerend with goes. The correlation between the line(s) spoken by Shinji about how he relates to the world and what happens to the world in the final scene of the movie is quite frankly too blatant to ignore. But pointing this out doesn't mean that anyone is suggesting that Shinji wants to end the world in a calculated, methodical fashion.

He is just angry at the cruel universe that is making him feel pain, where things he thinks are dear to him are being taken away. This raw, inarticulate anger and resentment seeps out, manifests in physical reality via the godlike conduit of the Eva. But, again, it's unfiltered passion. Pure emotion. Nothing rational or thought out. In the end, no one is suggesting that Shinji was thinking to himself "Oh man, i sure wish the world would end right about now, preferably involving a giant vortex and some disco lights". But to entertain the notion that there's no real connection between Shinji's state of mind, his emotions, and the end of the world coming about, when the film does anything in it's power to connect these dots is just nonsensical, from any perspective of analysis imaginable.

His passions taking over doesn't free him from his responsibilities, however, nor should it give him a free pass regarding consequences.

My actual argument about the relation between Shinji's emotional attitude and the happenings of near-Third Impact. More than anything, i argue against him bringing about the end of the world intentionally.

But the anger he felt is still there. In the back of his mind. As emotional white noise, if you will. It's a state which he is in, and doesn't have a choice whether he is like that or not. He can't "turn" his anger consciously, in a blink.

Him wanting to save Rei is an active, self-aware decision. But that doesn't mean he just got out of the state of boiling anger he was in prior to making this decision, or at least i see no evidence for that being the case. His desire to get Rei out of the Angel does not supersede his frustrations, since they were never competing for the same spot in Shinji's mind. One is a choice, the other is merely a state which he is in. It just happens that there is a sentence that is indicative of said emotional state, and there is probably a connection between it and the happenings of the finale of the movie, in my view.

I and HyperShinchan and Jornophelanthas all explained

Neither of you explained anything. You presented your theories against mine. There is a difference.

Did Shinji successful rescue of Rei mean someone/something granted his wish? Why could it not be interpreted that Eva awakening or 3rd Impact (neither of which I think Shinji actively wanted to make happen) as some wish granted instead?

Could be, of course. But this line of thought leads nowhere, since i can ask back "But why can't Shinji getting what he wants mean just that, that his wish was granted?" in an endless circle. However, i still feel that my view is a pretty natural one.

It depends on if you want to talk about Shinji only in NME or you include Shinji in NME/EoE as well. The interview you quoted seems to be talking about Shinji in NGE.

Tsurumaki: [There must be a] "however," right? When I was doing the storyboards for "Break," and went to confirm with Anno-san that portraying Shinji like this was good, I was emphatically told, "What are you talking about, Makki? This is completely wrong!" What a shock I received!

Tsurumaki was dismissed by Anno during the production of Ha, so what's in the interview is relevant to NME. If i got it right, Tsurumaki told Anno that he thinks they should portray Shinji like so and so, like they did in NGE, and that's when the shock came, when Anno told him that it was wrong to think like that about Shinji in NGE and it would be wrong to think like that about him in NME.

But if there wasn't much of a discussion taking place in the Japanese circles, then my question is pointless.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Seele: Thanks for finding the post!

Personally I do not see it as a satire

I think you're misunderstanding. Chrad meant that NME could be a bitter satire of TTGL in the following way: http://forum.evageeks.org/post/389546/Shinjis-portrayal-in-Eva-20-222/#389546 (Page 08 of this thread, no wonder I couldn't find it at first!)

[Reichu]

As far as Japanese impressions of Shinji go -- the Internet will probably be an unreliable source at this point anyway. Much of what was written before impressions of NGE could be "contaminated" by NME is long, long gone.