Evangelion 3.0 Speculation [1]

[Chuckman]

Unit 01 not raising her hand, might be Anno trying to downplay Shinji being "special" or "the chosen one." Furthermore, Ritsuko's reaction to it moving in Eva-TV is uncalled for because a few episodes later, we're told that she's seen Unit 00 move on its own with the pilot ejected (which happened before Shinji's arrival). So it also doubles as a plot error.

I think it's a sign that Yui isn't actually in there. When Unit One berserks, it's just Shinji. It's just a big cyborg, and the soul of Gendo's wife isn't in there. Part of the reason I think that is because Eva is always very driven by its themes. Either that, or Yui's Yui-ness was fundamentally destroyed by the process of being absorbed into it.

I think Rebuild is an intentional counterpoint to (the fan's common misinterpretation of) Gurren Lagann and an assault on 'badassery' in general. What I think we're going to see is that Gendo can't bring Yui back, and no matter what he does, Shinji is still going to lose Rei because she's not of this world and can't stay with him. That would build on the parallels between father and son; Shinji calls out Gendo for doing something he immediately does himself at the climax of 2.0, and it turns out that Gendo's futile attempt to 'save' Yui leads to Shinji's futile attempts to 'save' Rei in a nice little package.

Like the original series, it's still about growing up, but a different aspect of growing up. As we become adults we start to lose people, make mistakes, and experience tragedies. You can't 'badass' your way out of it, you can't focus your mighty will so hard that it unfucks the universe for you. I think we'll see, in the terms of the consequences of Shinji's actions (and Gendo's, which are already unfolding) that even if you could, you wouldn't want to. Part of growing up is accepting that, and learning to cherish memories and take care of what you still have. Yui not actually being in Unit One would be a good writing decision, since it would be a twist for people familiar with the original series and people who are coming onboard with the movies.

I'm sure 3.0 and Final will have a lot of intrigue and backstory and goings on, but it will fundamentally be about Shinji being forced to choose between refusing to accept loss and become his father or grow up and move on.

And by move on I mean remembering his time with Rei fondly and banging Asuka like a tin drum. I'm talking about pounding out the rhythm section to Under the Sea here.

Sorry.

[TheHentaiChrist]

inre2 The Committee quetion:

No, that has not been shown or even referenced. Although, I think we can assume that it and other such entities still exist but are just inconsequential details in terms of the story being told and it's truncated nature.

The Marduke Institute hasn't been mentioned, either but that exists in a similar place as the committee as being a public front. In the series, peeling back that layer added depth; discovering that apparent solid after the other is an illusion. But in the movies, it would just be unnecessary clutter. We can still, however, assume that NERV is pulling the strings and can't be seen doing so publicly, so some other false method of action probably exists. At least, until there is reason to believe otherwise.

I don't think it'll come up, though, and will just continue to be a part of the deeper subtext that the series already exists to provide.

I have more to say about Asuka and Shinji, but I'll just have to let you be wrong. ;P

[Reichu]

TheHentaiChrist: The Marduk Institute/Project has been mentioned.

I think it's a sign that Yui isn't actually in there.

The lights don't fall in Eva 1.0, so there's no reason for Yui to raise her hand to shield Shinji.

Eva 2.0 lets us know Yui is still in there when Eva-01 willfully rejects the dummy system and Gendo's all, "Why are you rejecting me, Yui?"

[deeRez]

The lights don't fall in Eva 1.0, so there's no reason for Yui to raise her hand to shield Shinji.

That's dodging the question... so let me ask this:
Why did Anno decide not to have the lights fall?

It was not worth the animation, for such a "small plot point"?

Or because it was a badly scripted scene originally to begin with that only conflicted with later scenes/plot points,
and by not making the lights fall, Anno saved himself from having to even discuss it?

I think Rebuild is an [..] an assault on 'badassery' in general.

I like that approach and I hope it's true.

In Eva-TV, Shinji can do it, but he doesn't want to due to internal obstacles.
In Rebuild, Shinji wants to do it, but he can't due to external obstacles.

[Azathoth]

Why did Anno decide not to have the lights fall?

The only reason the lights fall in NGE is to show that Unit 01 is alive, capable of independent action, and wants to protect Shinji, and importantly that Gendou is very pleased with this fact. This is because his entire plan at this point is banking on Yui's urge to protect Shinji.

But in NME Gendou is not banking on this. His plan, as we saw, was to get Shinji and Rei inside Unit 01 together in order to awaken Unit 01 and release its power. So Gendou's plan revolves around pushing Shinji and Rei together, not motivating Yui to protect her kid.

[BulletShoot]

But in NME Gendou is not banking on this. His plan, as we saw, was to get Shinji and Rei inside Unit 01 together in order to awaken Unit 01 and release its power. So Gendou's plan revolves around pushing Shinji and Rei together, not motivating Yui to protect her kid.

It's interesting to note that all of Gendo's plans seem to involve giving Shinji love. First with motherly love from Yui and now with either sisterly or romantic love (up for debate) from Rei.

[Bagheera]

It's interesting to note that all of Gendo's plans seem to involve giving Shinji love. First with motherly love from Yui and now with either sisterly or romantic love (up for debate) from Rei.

Yeah. Imagine how much easier things would have been (in both cases) if he'd just given the kid some love himself.

[SaltyJoe]

That's dodging the question... so let me ask this:
Why did Anno decide not to have the lights fall?

It was not worth the animation, for such a "small plot point"?

Or because it was a badly scripted scene originally to begin with that only conflicted with later scenes/plot points,
and by not making the lights fall, Anno saved himself from having to even discuss it?

Two things:

1., First off, showing Ritsuko's reaction is not an error IMO. The circumstances were radically different in the two instances. Eva-00 went on a berserk rage after it was powered up during the activation test. Eva-01 moved to protect a specific person while effectively deactivated, then ceased activity. Two very different events with very different implications.

2., Not having this one scene does a pretty lousy job of showing that Shinji is not the chosen one when there is an albino godchild whose dialog mostly consists of lines that affirm that Shinji is indeed the "one" in whatever sense. And this is just the most obvious.

@the idea of Yui not being in there:
Would result in dramatic deflation by lessening the tangibility of Gendo's desire to get her back, would take out a valuable character from the part of the story that's happening in the present time, constricting Yui to flashback limbo, all for a dead end twist. Do not want.

[1731298478]

Why did Anno decide not to have the lights fall?

The lights don't fall in Death, either. However, in Death we don't see a Gendo reaction shot. As Azathoth said, Gendo's reaction is shown later in 1.11 than in the TV series, though a bit earlier than Shinji picking up Rei (Gendo is smiling at whatever he sees Shinji doing when Shinji asks 'daijobu desu ka').

Another (probably meaningless? ^^) difference is that Eva-01's eyes light up at different times in all three versions. In the TV series, Eva-01's eyes are fully dark when it shields Shinji, and the eyes light up when Shinji turns back to look at it after picking up Rei. In Death, Eva-01's eyes are lit up even before it shields Shinji, and don't change when Shinji turns back to look. In 1.11, the eyes are half-lit to begin with, but go dark when Ritsuko orders the core unit changed; when Shinji looks back at Unit-01 after picking up Rei, they are fully dark. They half-light up again during the first contact (as part of the activation sequence), and fully light up during the second contact.

[Chuckman]

TheHentaiChrist: The Marduk Institute/Project has been mentioned.


The lights don't fall in Eva 1.0, so there's no reason for Yui to raise her hand to shield Shinji.

Shit. I was so hung up on the hand not moving I never noticed there was no reason for it to move.

I still think he won't be able to get her back. I'm just guessing since we still have half the story to go, but I do think the acceptance of loss theme I suggested still has some merit.

[Azathoth]

As Azathoth said, Gendo's reaction is shown later in 1.11 than in the TV series, though a bit earlier than Shinji picking up Rei (Gendo is smiling at whatever he sees Shinji doing when Shinji asks 'daijobu desu ka').

Huh, I'd forgotten that. I suppose he could just be pleased that Shinji is initiating contact with Rei at all.

[Reichu]

In the TV series, Eva-01's eyes are fully dark when it shields Shinji, and the eyes light up when Shinji turns back to look at it after picking up Rei. In Death, Eva-01's eyes are lit up even before it shields Shinji, and don't change when Shinji turns back to look.

This is technically the difference between the original version of episode 01 (which Death uses) and the Renewal version.

The eyes go dark when Shinji insists he can't pilot and motions are made to get Rei instead, and they light back up when Shinji turns to look at Eva-01 (after taking Rei into his arms) and makes the mental decision to pilot. ...Yui has eyes only for him, I guess?

[1731298478]

This is technically the difference between the original version of episode 01 (which Death uses) and the Renewal version.

The eyes go dark when Shinji insists he can't pilot and motions are made to get Rei instead, and they light back up when Shinji turns to look at Eva-01 (after taking Rei into his arms) and makes the mental decision to pilot. ...Yui has eyes only for him, I guess?

Ah, so, if I understand right, the correct differences are:

Original TV: Eyes start fully lit and stay on. Lights fall.
Death: Same as Original TV but lights don't fall.
Renewal: Eyes start fully lit, go dark when Unit-01 is reconfigured; lights fall; eyes go on again when Shinji looks back.
1.11: Eyes start half-lit, go dark when Unit-01 is reconfigured; lights don't fall; eyes stay dark when Shinji looks back.

Also (as you mentioned earlier) in the original Eva, Ritsuko only asks for Unit-01's system to be changed for Rei; in 1.11 she apparently asks for the core to be replaced. If Yui is only 'in' the core, and not diffused through the whole Eva, then Chuckman might be right: Yui is not actually in Unit-01 when the lights (almost) fall, and this would also explain why Unit-01's eyes don't light up when Shinji looks back at it. (If this is the case, and if the lights had fallen, Shinji would have gotten crushed!)

(I don't know if that's right; couldn't Gendo have then used another core for the dummy system when Yui rejected it? Or was the dummy system built to only work with Yui? (Or was there no other core available then?))

Anyway, if the changes do point to some sort of Yui absence, it would be a very temporary one, at best.

[Jornophelanthas]

(I don't know if that's right; couldn't Gendo have then used another core for the dummy system when Yui rejected it? Or was the dummy system built to only work with Yui? (Or was there no other core available then?))

We have yet to see evidence that there are more Evangelion cores than there are Evangelions (or pilots). The core switch in Rebuild 1.0 would most likely consist of putting Unit-00's core into Unit-01.

in 1.11 she apparently asks for the core to be replaced.

This is interesting, and offers opportunity for speculation. Some things we can deduce from this:

(1) Unit-01's core is not compatible (enough) with Rei piloting it, unlike in NGE, where there was even a synchronization test involving Rei and Unit-01/Yui.

If we assume that (1) is true, and also assume that Yui resides inside Unit-01's core, and observe that the Dummy Plug system is meant to be compatible with Unit-01's core/Yui, then we can conclude that:
(2) the Dummy Plug system is not based on Rei.

If we assume that (2) is true, then we must conclude that:
(3) the Dummy Plug system is based on something that is compatible with Yui.

Some exotic speculations from here:
(A) Shinji clones?
(I recall one user on this forum speculating that after Shinji was boiled in the entry plug by the Sixth Angel ("Ramiel") and was hastily evacuated from Unit-01 during 1.0, they replaced his body with a clone.)

(B) Kaworu clones?
(If Kaworu is so preoccupied with Shinji, perhaps they have been in contact during childhood in this continuity, where Kaworu developed this attachment. Perhaps Kaworu has been genetically and/or cognitively manipulated to be compatible with Shinji in some way. After all, he addresses Gendo as "father".)

(C) Artificial intelligence computers based on Shinji's brainwave recordings?
(What do you think those boring tests during the long stretch of time in between the 7th and 8th Angel attacks were for? Coincidentally, the Dummy Plugs were only introduced by the end of that period.)

My guess, boringly, is (C).

[driftking18594]

(B) Kaworu clones?
(If Kaworu is so preoccupied with Shinji, perhaps they have been in contact during childhood in this continuity, where Kaworu developed this attachment. Perhaps Kaworu has been genetically and/or cognitively manipulated to be compatible with Shinji in some way. After all, he addresses Gendo as "father".)

My guess is that Kaworu is a clone of Gendo. If 2I was caused by human DNA mixing with Adam's, and Gendo was at the "scene of the crime", I wouldn't be surprised if Gendo contributed that necessary DNA sample.

[Jornophelanthas]

My guess is that Kaworu is a clone of Gendo. If 2I was caused by human DNA mixing with Adam's, and Gendo was at the "scene of the crime", I wouldn't be surprised if Gendo contributed that necessary DNA sample.

Interesting theory. It opens a lot of Oedipal possibilities for pointless speculation.
Well, that's what this thread is for:

If Kaworu is a clone of Gendo, he would be Shinji's (half-)brother. Just like Rei is his (half-)sister. But Kaworu and Rei would not be related genetically.

If Kaworu is a clone of Gendo, then he may be able to synchronize with Unit-01, due to the bond between Yui and Gendo. Perhaps Yui can recognize Gendo's DNA in him, just like she recognizes Shinji.

If Kaworu is a clone of Gendo, and if he is an Angelic being similar to Rei, then a part of his soul could be included in Unit-06's core. Since Kaworu appears to have some kind of bond with Shinji, would this mean that Shinji may be able to synchronize with Unit-06?

If Kaworu is a clone of Gendo and if the Dummy Plugs are Kaworu clones, Gendo is basically inserting a proxy for himself into Yui/Unit-01. (Not really news, of course, because Rebuild-Gendo also appears to consider Shinji to be a proxy for himself, what with father-son talk in 2.0 when Shinji quits, where Gendo tells Shinji how he should act.)

If Kaworu is a clone of Gendo and if Rei is a clone of Yui (which is already foreshadowed in 2.0), the "forbidden union" of Rei and Kaworu involves a union of Yui's and Gendo's DNA. The fruit of that forbidden union will then be something that is ... remarkably similar to Shinji. (at a genetic level)

While some of these thoughts are really out there, perhaps there is something of value here. That last one in particular could build up to an explanation of why Shinji might be able to affect Third Impact.

[Reichu]

If Kaworu is a clone of Gendo, there's so much epigenetic wackiness going on that no resemblance remains. How odd.

[Warren Peace]

Yeah, even other Anno works which aren't directly related to Evangelion can remind us of it, like Shiki-jitsu's fucking ending...

Heh. And the ending of Cutie Honey (of all things!) is actually a remake of EOE. Anno has been circling around doing an all-out NGE recreation for a while now.

That's dodging the question... so let me ask this:
Why did Anno decide not to have the lights fall?

I assume for the same reason they cut the shot of Unit-00's hand before that: to move things along. If so, it was a wise choice. The identity of Unit-01 is unimportant in 1.0, so better to address that later.

[driftking18594]

If Kaworu is a clone of Gendo, there's so much epigenetic wackiness going on that no resemblance remains. How odd.

We haven't seen a 15-year-old Gendo yet, so I wouldn't rule out Kaworu being Gendo's clone.

[Reichu]

We haven't seen a 15-year-old Gendo yet, so I wouldn't rule out Kaworu being Gendo's clone.

The two really look nothing alike, and considering how sparse anime characters are in terms of facial features that's saying a lot.

A de-aged Gendo usually comes out looking like a creepier version of Shinji. An aged Kaworu would probably have a broader chin and longer face, but should successfully graduate to "pretty man" status (and a "pretty man" is something the younger adult Gendo decidedly is NOT).