Making sense of the impact trigger and the new lore in Rebuild

[Konja7]

He was at the epicenter of the event and he rejected Instrumentality, as said by Gendo himself in Shin during their debate.

I think Gendo saying this was a reference to Shinji rejecting Instrumentality in EoE. I know it's too meta, but they were in the anti-universe where charactes remember previous timelines.

I disagree with the theory that Gendo's words mean that Shinji rejected Instrumentality in the Third Impact of Rebuild.

Gendo says he wanted to create the Instrumentality Shinji rejected. However, the Instrumentality of the Third Impact in Rebuild was going according to SEELE's plan (create a new race with Fruit of Life but without Fruit of Knowledge), which we know Gendo never wanted.


PS: Gendo wanted a world without divisions (the tanged world) in Rebuilds. This goal was similar to SEELE's goal in NGE, but not SEELE's goal in Rebuilds.

[Blockio]

Tangent about Impact events has been moved here

I think Gendo saying this was a reference to Shinji rejecting Instrumentality in EoE. I know it's too meta, but they were in the anti-universe where charactes remember previous timelines.

I am with you right up until the last two words. If we look at the place the characters end up in EoE - specifically Gendo and Yui - it does not make any sense for NTE to happen at any point afterwards, since that would involve them (as past discussions of this point have shown Gendo has plausible deniability, but Yui is undisputable) going back to a mortal life that they detest and have spent most of their respective lives working at getting away from and elevating themselves into a being of higher order; NTE (or NGE for that matter if one were to reverse the supposed sequence of events, which works just as well by the commonly cited talking points) being a sequel would by necessity mean that Yui gave up on being what basically amounts to God, her lifelong ambition that she is shown to be extremely happy with having achieved, alongside taking with her everyone on Earth who was similarily despaired about their ATF-bearing existence.
This completely undermines the thematic point of EoE and multiple major character arcs.

Instead, I pose that what the characters are gaining insight into during Additional Impact are other timelines; on top of the frequently cited metanarrative elements in the sequences, the freshly released cut content (which, as usual, ct for some reason or another, grain of salt, but even with that can still be used to inform general plans of the narrative in conjunction with evidence that did make it into the final product, which is the case here) was shown tearing through the actual script of the movie; that's about as clearly as you can show a sequence taking place in a space where its inhabitants are aware of their own fictionality.
Having established this, it is hardly a stretch to pose that the pieces of NGE canon we see during the sequence is meant to not signify temporal continuity, but rather metaspatial continuity; yes, they are remembering something that another version of themselves did, but it is not from the place of a distant ancestor, so much as that of a different self at the same/a comparable time; think of Everything Everywhere All At Once.

[Szmitten]

I think you really gotta think of Third Impact as one event that happened to be paused and resumed, and that "Near" and "Actual" are just monikers rather than deliberate phases.

[hui43210]

I think you really gotta think of Third Impact as one event that happened to be paused and resumed, and that "Near" and "Actual" are just monikers rather than deliberate phases.

This is how I'm thinking as well. "Actual" is an inevitable outcome of the process that "Near" starts, no sense in overthinking it beyond that.

[Blockio]

I mean, we are told as much outright; Cassius didn't stop 3I, just stalled it. That's not even up for debate, that's just a fact

[Szmitten]

To go even beyond that, Actual Third Impact happens, but Kaji also died to "stop" it. With Lilith getting double speared at 3I seemingly being down to him, then Kaji also paused 3I. When Shinji removed the spears in Q, he unpaused/undid whatever Kaji intended, allowing Third Impact to complete, which - since Lilith dies immediately - evidently means that Kaji was trying to stop Lilith's death (since she's the Angel sacrifice and/or killing Lilith paves the way for a Fourth Impact).

So if we're being technical, Third Impact started at the end of 2.0, resumes then stops in a sealed environment, then resumes and concludes towards the end of Q 14 years later.

[Raikyu]

I mean, we are told as much outright; Cassius didn't stop 3I, just stalled it. That's not even up for debate, that's just a fact

Sorry, I can't remember in which part that was stated. Could you tell, in which scene that happened?

[Konja7]

Sorry, I can't remember in which part that was stated. Could you tell, in which scene that happened?

I don't think it's directly stated.

We know the N3I has some relation with the Third Impact (it was the trigger), but we don't know if this is due to the Third Impact in 2.0 not being totally stopped.

It's possible the Third Impact in 2.0 was totally stopped, but it has already fulfilled its role as a trigger for the Third Impact at that point.


PS: Kaworu becoming the 13 the Angel was the trigger for the Fourth Impact in 3.0. It's possible this still works as a trigger for the Fourth Impact in 3.0+1.0.

[Blockio]

I don't remember the precise scene, but it's said somewhere in the vicinity of talking about Kaji's sacrifice, by Kaworu if I'm not completely mistaken.
EDIT: 0:50:38, Kensuke - "Someone had to sacrifice themselves in order to stop Near Third Impact." Now, going by the CC here, the jp audio does only speak of 3I, but given that the translation was done in-house and directly consluted Khara, I see no reason to doubt that this is actually meant to mean N3I here.

For the sake of completion  SPOILER: Show

CC: サードインパクトを止めるのに 誰かが犠牲になるしかなかった
DeepL: Someone had to be sacrificed to stop Third Impact.

And since, of course, we later see Kaji in a flashback during a very much active Impact event with the blue armbands that mean that time has passed and the Wille rebellion has already happened, this establishes that one is a continuation of the other.
EDIT2: So turns out that Prime gives two different options for English subs and one of them talks about 3I, the other about N3I. What the fuck, why.

[Konja7]

EDIT: 0:50:38, Kensuke - "Someone had to sacrifice themselves in order to stop Near Third Impact." Now, going by the CC here, the jp audio does only speak of 3I, but given that the translation was done in-house and directly consluted Khara, I see no reason to doubt that this is actually meant to mean N3I here.

For the sake of completion  SPOILER: Show

CC: サードインパクトを止めるのに 誰かが犠牲になるしかなかった
DeepL: Someone had to be sacrificed to stop Third Impact.

I suspect this is a translation mistake due to the Third Impact being included inside the event called N3I.

It makes sense that Kensuke mentioned the Third Impact (the only time a regular Lilin mentioned the Third Impact) in this situation, because he was explaining the especific event that Kaji sacrificed to stop.

Now, it seems that stopping the Third Impact doesn't stop the corification of the land, since Midori seems to escape from the corification for days.

[nerv bae]

EDIT2: So turns out that Prime gives two different options for English subs and one of them talks about 3I, the other about N3I. What the fuck, why.

I couldn't believe that the subtitles and dubtitles would be this screwy so I went and checked. That's hilarious:

SPOILER: Show

Prime "English" subtitles, presumably matching Japanese audio:


Prime "English [CC]" dubtitles, which I confirm match the English audio:

[Blockio]

In either case, it was not the only thing stating that. Here's a Kaworu line from later on

Once awakened, Eva Unit 01 opened the Gates of Guf and acted as the trigger to bring about the Third Impact.
The Lilin call it the Near Third Impact.
You were the key to it all.

And this time it's the actual subs, not the dub closed captions being listed as a subtrack (which, absolute fucking bullshit on so many levels).
This together with the actual version of the previous line is hard confirmation that Cassius did not end 3I.
Kaworu explicitly points out that what was started at the end of Ha was 3I proper, that it was Shinji who caused it, and that it is only the lilin who mingle their words about it (much as we are now, heh); given that at this point in the story, he has nothing to hide, we can take him at face value here.
Combine this with Kensuke's line that 3I needed Kaji's sacrifice to be stopped, together with the prior evidence of the flashback showing that Wille already existed by the time he died and Takao naming him as one of Wille's founders, we can conclude that this happened at a later point; therefor, since we know from Kaworu that the entire thing is the result of Shinji and 01, we know that Cassius was not enough to stop it.

[Konja7]

I couldn't believe that the subtitles and dubtitles would be this screwy so I went and checked. That's hilarious:

SPOILER: Show

Prime "English" subtitles, presumably matching Japanese audio:


Prime "English [CC]" dubtitles, which I confirm match the English audio:

The worse is that the situation could be the opposite on other cases where the "English" subtitles match the English audio while "English [CC]" subtitles match Japaanese audio.

[swagbuckking1]

In either case, it was not the only thing stating that. Here's a Kaworu line from later on

Once awakened, Eva Unit 01 opened the Gates of Guf and acted as the trigger to bring about the Third Impact.
The Lilin call it the Near Third Impact.
You were the key to it all.

And this time it's the actual subs, not the dub closed captions being listed as a subtrack (which, absolute fucking bullshit on so many levels).
This together with the actual version of the previous line is hard confirmation that Cassius did not end 3I.
Kaworu explicitly points out that what was started at the end of Ha was 3I proper, that it was Shinji who caused it, and that it is only the lilin who mingle their words about it (much as we are now, heh); given that at this point in the story, he has nothing to hide, we can take him at face value here.
Combine this with Kensuke's line that 3I needed Kaji's sacrifice to be stopped, together with the prior evidence of the flashback showing that Wille already existed by the time he died and Takao naming him as one of Wille's founders, we can conclude that this happened at a later point; therefor, since we know from Kaworu that the entire thing is the result of Shinji and 01, we know that Cassius was not enough to stop it.

I think you're misinterpreting Kaworu's words slightly. When he says "bring about the 3rd Impact" it doesn't necessarily mean the 3rd impact was executed to completion but that an attempt was made but didn't succeed. "Once awakened, Eva Unit 01 opened the Gates of Guf and acted as the trigger to bring about the Third Impact [but it didn't happen. Hence why] The Lilin call it the Near Third Impact." is how I interpreted those words.

Edit: To add to my point, I'm sure Kaworu was aware that Gendo was fully attempting to force the 3rd impact at that point hence his choice of words.

[Konja7]

I think you're misinterpreting Kaworu's words. When he says "bring about the 3rd Impact" it doesn't necessarily mean the 3rd impact was executed to completion but that an attempt was made but didn't succeed. "Once awakened, Eva Unit 01 opened the Gates of Guf and acted as the trigger to bring about the Third Impact [but it didn't happen. Hence why] The Lilin call it the Near Third Impact." is how I interpreted those words.

The thing is Kaworu says this to explain how Shinji was involved in this situation and the reason why humana blame him.

That's why it has more sense that Kaworu saying "bring about the Third Impact" means the Third Impact between 2.0 an 3.0.

Although Eva-01 doesn't seem to be present in the Third Impact, it definitely was involved, since the Failures of Infinity are its copies.

[Blockio]

I think you're misinterpreting Kaworu's words slightly. When he says "bring about the 3rd Impact" it doesn't necessarily mean the 3rd impact was executed to completion but that an attempt was made but didn't succeed. "Once awakened, Eva Unit 01 opened the Gates of Guf and acted as the trigger to bring about the Third Impact [but it didn't happen. Hence why] The Lilin call it the Near Third Impact." is how I interpreted those words.

That would be true in a vacuum, but we know through Kensuke's words that a sacrifice is a hard requirement to stop an impact, that a spear alone is not enough.

[swagbuckking1]

Although Eva-01 doesn't seem to be present in the Third Impact, it definitely was involved, since the Failures of Infinity are its copies.

The way I see it is, that Gendo stuck a spanner in the works for SEELE by having Unit 01 awaken and cause NTI. And by doing so, he "put his mark" on the impact process. So that even though Kaworu "stopped" NTI with the Cassius spear, any subsequent attempts to restart the 3rd impact, will always have Gendo's and Unit 01's impression of it. Does that kinda make sense?

Gendo started 3rd impact > Kaworu stops it > SEELE restart 3rd impact months later using Mark 06 > They instead see that Gendo's /Unit 01's version of the impact is occurring > Kaji stops 3rd impact > Unit 01 FoIs everywhere.

That would be true in a vacuum, but we know through Kensuke's words that a sacrifice is a hard requirement to stop an impact, that a spear alone is not enough.

I don't put much stock in Kensuke's words that a sacrifice is required to stop the impact in the ritualistic sense but rather a generic sense. Kaji had to sacrifice his life because it was dangerous endeavour and not because the eva(s) needed a human soul to stop "impacting" or whatever.

[Konja7]

If we read more of Shinji and Kaworu conversation, it gives more context:

Shinji: What is this...?
Kaworu: The result of the Third Impact, which happened while you were fused with Unit 01.
Shinji: Then... The city and everyone in it are...
Kaworu: Mass extinctions aren't a rare occurrence on this world. On the contrary, they spur on evolution. After all, life-forms transform themselves to adapt to their world. But the Lilin, they transform the world instead of themselves. And so, they created a rite in order to artificially evolve. Sacrificing the life-forms of the past in order to create a new life-form imbued with the fruit of life. This extinction is all part of a program hard-coded into all life in antiquity. Nerv called it the Human Instrumentality Project.
Shinji: Nerv did this...? What was my father trying to do?
Kaworu: Shinji Ikari. Once awakened, Eva Unit 01 opened the Gates of Guf and acted as the trigger to bring about the Third Impact. The Lilin call it the Near Third Impact. You were the key to it all.
Shinji: No... I just wanted to save Ayanami.
Kaworu: Perhaps. But that caused this.

At first, he explained the Third Impact was responsible for the state of the World. He aslo explain the Lilin (SEELE and Gendo) caused this by trying to force artificial evolution.

However, Kaworu mentioned Eva-01 opening the Gates of Guf was the trigger to bring about the Third Impact (we can assume he is speaking about the Third Impact he previously mentioned). This role as a trigger why Shinji is blamed by humanity.


PS: The conversation will continue and Kaworu will mention this is the reason why Shinji is blamed by Lilin.

[swagbuckking1]

snip

What you need to understand is that all of the impacts are all the same event, it's just that they keep getting paused by Kaworu, Kaji and WILLE. We know this because the impact in Q is referred to by Asuka as a continuation of the 3rd impact iirc. From this, I, like you, gather that all subsequent impacts after NTI are "umbrella'd" under the impact Shinji caused in 2.0 and therefore he gets blamed despite "his" impact getting stopped by Kaworu and him not having anything to do with the impact that coreified the world.

In other words, he set the ball rolling but Kaworu stopped it only for other parties to set the ball rolling again. Shinji made it exponentially easier for Gendo and SEELE to cause impacts and that is why Shinji gets blamed. That is the only explanation that makes sense to me.

Edit: But then this creates more questions. Why is it easier for Gendo and Seele? How did they cause the actual 3rd impact? What role did Mark 06 play? Where was Unit 01? I don't know. It just gets more and more confusing.

[Konja7]

What you need to understand is that all of the impacts are all the same event, it's just that they keep getting paused by Kaworu, Kaji and WILLE. We know this because the impact in Q is referred to by Asuka as a continuation of the 3rd impact iirc. From this, I, like you, gather that all subsequent impacts after NTI are "umbrella'd" under the impact Shinji caused in 2.0 and therefore he gets blamed despite "his" impact getting stopped by Kaworu and him not having anything to do with the impact that coreified the world.

I've always understood that Asuka feared the Third Impact, but this doesn't really happened. The Fourth Impact was started, but this has "Kaworu becoming the 13th Angel" as the trigger.

The Second, Third and Fourth are similar events, but these have their own functions.

That said, the Third Impact in 2.0 was said to be a continuation of the Second Impact.

Edit: But then this creates more questions. Why is it easier for Gendo and Seele? How did they cause the actual 3rd impact? What role did Mark 06 play? Where was Unit 01? I don't know. It just gets more and more confusing.

It's pretty likely SEELE's original plan for the Third Impact has to be changed.

I mean, I'm pretty sure SEELE's original plan doesn't include Mark-06 becoming an autonomous model. Also, they created the Wunder, but this wasn't used for the Third Impact between 2.0 and 3.0.

So, I suspect SEELE needed to resort to whatever Eva-01 triggered at the end of 2.0 to start the Third Impact.