TyroLuuki wrote:My argument is that the intention doesn't seem to be about toning down homoeroticism when the same translators use "like" instead of "love" for the sukis said between Rei/Shinji and Asuka/Shinji in this movie, and people have still been interpreting those likes as romantic regardless.
The "worthy of my grace" line was definitely weird as hell, but I assume the translator chose a more "creative" translation to play up Kaworu's angelic-ness. Though iirc that line was changed last year to worthy of my affection in Netflix's subtitles, probably because grace isn't a viable translation for 好意.
Actually now that you mention it I had forgotten that Netflix did change their translations a second time between the original release in 2019 and sometime in 2020, so I can't actually comment on which translation they were referring to - although I believe it was the first one - but yeah, grace felt a bit weird and out of place, at least for people that were already acquainted with his background.
TyroLuuki wrote:Yeah, not necessarily. Gendo tells Shinji 愛している / Aishiteiru in this very movie during the train station scene and he definitely didn't mean it in a romantic way...
Though Aishiteiru is certainly one of the more intense and blunt ways to express love than suki or daisuki, hence why Japanese people don't say it all too often to not come off too strong.
Yeah, I actually meant love in a more decisive, unambiguous way, but since we were talking about romantic feelings I emphasized that meaning, didn't mean to say it's exclusively romantic. Japanese people are rather different from westerners on how to express all the types of love, hence why some things like kabedons and love confessions might seem so alien to us sometimes - at least at first, when our knowledge of Japanese culture is rather thin.
TyroLuuki wrote:Hm, not saying you're lying but I'd like to see a source for this before I believe it. Kanemitsu ultimately chose to translate Kaworu's line as "I was attracted to you", not "I was drawn to you".
I'd totally get you a source but I honestly can't remember where I saw that, but as far as I remember that's what I read, although I might be wrong since that was something I read around a week ago or so and ever since the last movie came out I've been reading a shitload of things. Either way, since you seem more knowledgeable in Japanese than me we can see this your way, I don't mind since feeling attracted by and be drawn to can both have very similar - yet still ambiguous - meanings and the direct translation might even depend on localization, although ideally we shouldn't depend on translations to other languages to be able to set intent.
Konja7 wrote:Thank you for the answer.
However, it is just said that Tsurumaki was annoyed over the Asuka and Kenken thing. It doesn't say he is angry with fans for assuming that.
In a certain perspective, that could imply that Asuka x Kenken is real pairing, but Tsurumaki doesn't like it
The other footnotes are from VAs. I don't think they know so much about staff plans. I've understood Evangelion's VAs haven't even seen the scenes when they recorded.
Ogata wasn't even Shinji's VA in the train scene.
Considering the context of the previous entries and footnotes it's explicit that his anger is due to the erroneous notion that they're romantically involved, being that Tsurumaki was in charge of most of the movie's direction and everything Asuka related. In fact, Hideaki Anno himself audibly laughed at the notion of something romantic going on between them - refer to footnotes 18 and 20. Besides, being present or not during the recording of the scenes is rather irrelevant as it's very clear - honestly, it's really just common sense - that the voice actors are instructed by the personnel directly involved in the storytelling, instructing them how to act based on what feelings they want them to convey, and many times the VAs themselves take part in the creative process - hence why literally
everyone involved in the train scene denying romantic feelings between Mari and Shinji is so relevant. It's also worth pointing out that Tsurumaki had nearly total creative liberty - at least according to Anno himself, so take that with a grain of salt - to decide most of the things in the last movie, due to him wanting to flourish the next generation of the franchise and the revival of the anime industry and etc., so it's extremely unlikely that he'd end up having to put up with a pairing that he explicitly didn't want to happen and that no one in the cast approved of - refer to footnotes 19 and 22.
Konja7 wrote:The thing is aishiteru exist, but it is uncommon to use it. So, suki is the common word used for romantic confessions too.
At the end, it depends on the context:
In 3.0+1.0, there isn't a way the suki mentioned by Asuka wasn't romantic due to the context. Instead, Rei Q could be more ambiguous with her suki, because I've understood it isn't even clear if she likes one person or several (the english sub choose the shippy interpretation).
In NGE, Kaworu is ambiguous, because the context couldn't define his exact feelings (only that he likes Shinji).
Yeah, the funny thing about their language is that absolutely
everything heavily depends on context. Honestly, I didn't stop to think too much about Rei Q's meaning of
suki, at the moment I was more concerned about how they made the poor girl dirty (RIP)
Settie wrote:It's kinda hard to write off their final interactions as "just friends" though. For one even if you disregard Maris action as just a Mari thing, Shinji is entirely different. The way he flirts back to her is, the way i see it, more than just a sign of him being grown up.To me it signifies an interest, particularly from Shinji, that goes beyond regular chit chat. i mean calling someone cute isn't exactly subtle, especially if you just met a couple hours ago. There's too much familiarity there for two people who are very much complete strangers to each other to not be implying something more than "just friends".
Honestly, I think that's mostly just your interpretation of things. Let's not forget that there are people and people, so while some words or actions can be much more deep and relevant for, lets say, a German, it might not be the case for, lets say, an Italian, due to the differences in their usual interpersonal relations and overall culture. I personally never felt anything romantic between them, much to the opposite, I happened to feel exactly what the creators wanted to convene with that scene - a more mature, grown up Shinji. In fact, some people might not even consider the usage of such words in their dialogue as flirting. As I said, it's not that people are wrong for desiring them to be together, but there
were specific feelings that the staff wanted to convey and they
weren't romantic at all, canonically speaking they're
not a couple. Shipping them isn't bad, affirming such ship to be canon based on an interpretation proven to be flawed, is.
T. K. Simon wrote:or who has a real interest in mari
I have a real interest in Mari thank you very much