Sequel Theory - General

[Archer]

Like, philosophically speaking? They are just different works of fiction that use the same characters in slightly different ways.

Take something like, say, the two Fullmetal Alchemist anime adaptations. They are not alternate timelines, they do not coexist in some multiverse where theoretically characters from one version could somehow travel to the other. In their own respective continuities there’s only one Ed and one Al, and while they play through many of the same events they are two independent works of fiction whose only relation is metafictional (e.g. both being adaptations of the source material that take the story in different directions). Jojo Part 7 is also a great example because Araki has explicitly stated that there is no in-universe connection between the “new universe” and the OG Jojo continuity, and that reused concepts and character names are there for purely metafictional reasons.

I see the Rebuilds and NGE in the same way. Any “looping” that occurs in the Rebuilds is specific to the Rebuilds since we sure as hell don’t see any Kaworu moon coffins in NGE, but can be read as an obvious metaphor for how Anno has retold and reinterpreted the story of Evangelion throughout the years as his own perspective changes.

Personally, I just don’t see how it’s satisfying to interpret this stuff on a literal, in-universe level of “OMG it’s ALL CONNECTED in a BIG MULTIVERSE OF EVA!!!” rather than to appreciate it as a metafictional device that uses in-universe time loops as a metaphor for the real-world iterations of the narrative (NGE/EoTV, Director’s Cut+EoE, Rebuilds). But then again I’m someone who absolutely hates extended continuity and likes my stories as self-contained as possible, so what do I know, lol.

[T. K. Simon]

I understand your point of view.

The coffins appear in 1.0, maybe the coffins that appear in 3.0 + 1.0 can only be seen by Kaworu, it can also be a metaphor, but I don't think that is the case.

But the "references" to the original series and eoe are there, everything seems to be connected, this will be debated for many more years.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Think of it this way, would NGE Kaworu be a part of that loop to be with Shinji? Doubtful. From his first appearance in Episode 24 he was trying to manipulate everything to get to Adam in the basement (later discovered to be Lilith) and cause Third Impact on his terms. NGE Kaworu’s feelings for NGE Shinji was just an unexpected development in his overall plan.

NTE Kaworu, on the other hand, doesn’t seem interested in Lilith at all, nor does he seem very interested in Impacts. His motivation is to get to NTE Shinji at all costs and coast on the happiness that he wants to give NTE Shinji. If NGE Kaworu and NTE Kaworu were one in the same, looping around to make Shinji happy, then NGE Kaworu wouldn’t have been the slightest bit interested in causing Third Impact, and Episode 24 would have actually looked way different.

[T. K. Simon]

My question is, do we have evidence that there are other realities?

E26 happens in Shinji's mind, within the instrumentalization.

The Live Action scene in eoe, Rei calls it an extension of reality, or a dream

Reality and dimension are the same?

[Archer]

Of course the references are there; the Rebuilds are very much Anno’s commentary/reflection on his feelings on Eva as a whole. But metafictional connections (e.g. connections that exist outside of the internal logic of a fictional universe, purely for the benefit of the audience) and narrative connections (e.g. explicit cause-and-effect connections within the narrative itself) should not be conflated.

To reference Jojo again (because I like Jojo), when the AU Dio shows up in Part 7, it’s not because there’s some grand multiversal web of fate that binds the Joestar and Brando bloodlines in eternal conflict, it’s just a metafictional nod to the original DIO who has no greater in-universe significance. The metafictional connection here does not imply any narrative connection that matters in-universe.

[Konja7]

NTE Kaworu, on the other hand, doesn’t seem interested in Lilith at all, nor does he seem very interested in Impacts. His motivation is to get to NTE Shinji at all costs and coast on the happiness that he wants to give NTE Shinji. If NGE Kaworu and NTE Kaworu were one in the same, looping around to make Shinji happy, then NGE Kaworu wouldn’t have been the slightest bit interested in causing Third Impact, and Episode 24 would have actually looked way different.

I agree. The only way this could work is NGE being the start of the loop and Kaworu changing a lot.

Kaworu changing is technically possible, since NTE Kaworu is clearly affected by the loop. Kaworu is miserable due to being trapped the loop, that's why he tries to make Shinji happy (Kaworu feels reflected in Shinji).

However, a connection with NGE makes things unnecessarily complicated. I prefer to mantain the loop as self-contained for NTE, while NGE images (in Rei's Instrumentality) as meta references.

[Kendrix]

SPOILER: Show

Think of it this way, would NGE Kaworu be a part of that loop to be with Shinji? Doubtful. From his first appearance in Episode 24 he was trying to manipulate everything to get to Adam in the basement (later discovered to be Lilith) and cause Third Impact on his terms. NGE Kaworu’s feelings for NGE Shinji was just an unexpected development in his overall plan.

NTE Kaworu, on the other hand, doesn’t seem interested in Lilith at all, nor does he seem very interested in Impacts. His motivation is to get to NTE Shinji at all costs and coast on the happiness that he wants to give NTE Shinji. If NGE Kaworu and NTE Kaworu were one in the same, looping around to make Shinji happy, then NGE Kaworu wouldn’t have been the slightest bit interested in causing Third Impact, and Episode 24 would have actually looked way different.

The idea is that ep 24 was before the loop though.

also, I'd say that even og Kaworu was more resigned to his role than anything else. From the start he talks about how interesting human culture is & if he really "must" do this even if the price is the destruction of the Lillim. It's in this doubtful state that Kaworu introduces himself to the guy he's fated to duel to the death. He introduces himself to Rei, too, expecting to have more in common with her but Shinji's the one who's more receptive & latches onto him immediately cause he's desperate for any sort of connection... and Kaworu, presumably, did the same, for like reasons, even if he comes off as more in-control due to having a wee bit more social skills.
So he meets his fated enemy... and he's this sad little puppy boy who just wants to be loved, the epitome of everything that makes him feel bad for the humans. How do you destroy that face?
So he can't do it. He still views himself, correctly or incorrectly, as bound by 'destiny' tho, and the only option other than "destroy the Lillim" is "let them have the planet".
He tries to escape his hateful "role" through death, for the sake of freedom.

This much is just the OG series. The Rebuilds then are kind of an exploration of what would happen if that did not work.
He just wakes up in a SEELE lab. Or on the Moon. Back to the start. Even death could not liberate him.
He's probably in total despair at this point. His hope of escape is completely crushed.
But his mindset this time is very different; His decision re_ destroying the Lillim is already made. His attachment to Shinji remains.
He thinks, "If I can't be happy, then I am going to help the one person who was nice to me"
Maybe the hated destinxy becomes darkly comforting cause at least it means they'll meet again.
In Q, he's on the side of Shinji & the Lillim to begin with.
But also he can't really cheer Shinji up as much. In ep 24 his problem was feeling a bit lonely & forgotten, which a new friend certainly helps with;
In Q, Shinji's problem is that he was gone for 14 years and the world went to crap in his absence. That's a whole different order of magnitude, some nice words won't fix that. Kaworu was forced to watch his deterioration.
So, he does something rash. He proposes that they steal the spears, and he doesn't even explain very much in detail cause he has this idea that he's gonna take care of everything & fix it all for Shinji.
Shinji, of course, gladly accepts this since he is in no state to be doing much planning or thinking.
They run straight into a trap & each boy blames himself completely for the result.
Total disaster is only averted thanks to Mari and Asuka.

If we take the title literally there would only have been 3 "loops" (that assumes the 'endless number of coffins' was metaphorical of course)
Which means there was at least one where Kaworu just did exactly the same things (apart from the DC conversation with SEELE maybe?), like an actor reciting his text.


That said, it seems to be less a loop and more a parallel universe situation. The only one looping is Kaworu. He dies in one universe, he pops up in the next. He is kind of living the quantum suicide paradox. Other characters gain knowledge of this in the minus universe, but there's no indication that the world as a whole was ever 'reset'.
OG Shinji is still on the blue ball; EoE Shinji is still on the beach, or went to some unknown future from there, but whatever it is Kaworu doesn't know it since he disappeared from that 'verse.

Also there's an implication that Kaworu didn't just repeat his life as himself, but also that of Adam and possibly the FAR whose soul became Adam (Nebuchadnezzar?)... the idea that Adam wrote the scrolls already came up in NGE2. He possibly caused the differences between the continuities by tweaking the info in the scrolls.
In EoTV it sees that Shinji was cowering in some corner when he got tanged.
Next time, he winds up in control.

It seems like Kaworu was aiming for something similar in TuaT, too. Once Gendo is dealt with, he's like, "Okay Shinji, what do you want?"
Like he meant to put Shinji in charge EoE style so he could get whatever he wants or work out his issues.
The misunderstanding for which Kaworu apologizes then, is that Shinji's real salvation was not in someone coming & giving him salvation, but in the power to make positive changes by his own strength & deal with feelings of failing to do that.
(One such positive change: Now that they're conveniently at the Typewriter of Destiny, we could just set Kaworu free... & just cancel the FAR's whole plan, really.)
It's not a solution Kaworu could have thought of because of how resigned & fatalistic he is underneath his dazzling smile.

Because, how did he spiral into despair in the OG series? Everyone he cared about was met with horrible fates and Shinji couldn't pull himself together enough to even try to help very much.

In that sense Toji's advice was probably very salient, especially that scene where he talks about the sadness & regret he feels when he can't save a patient & how he channels this into working harder.
It's not per se a rational regret - some people really can't be saved - but it's a feeling that Shinji had no model for dealing with other than "hate himself even more until you give up on everything".

[T. K. Simon]

SPOILER: Show

I agree. The only way this could work is NGE being the start of the loop and Kaworu changing a lot.

Kaworu changing is technically possible, since NTE Kaworu is clearly affected by the loop. Kaworu is miserable due to being trapped the loop, that's why he tries to make Shinji happy (Kaworu feels reflected in Shinji).

However, a connection with NGE makes things unnecessarily complicated. I prefer to mantain the loop as self-contained for NTE, while NGE images (in Rei's Instrumentality) as meta references.

I don't think the Seele logo is just a meta thing, the coffins already existed since 1.0, if the world reboots, the coffin should also be the case, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

the dialogues of kaworu, Shinji, gendo, possibly makes everything connected, (as L would say, 97%), but we don't know how.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

SPOILER: Show

I agree. The only way this could work is NGE being the start of the loop and Kaworu changing a lot.

Kaworu changing is technically possible, since NTE Kaworu is clearly affected by the loop. Kaworu is miserable due to being trapped the loop, that's why he tries to make Shinji happy (Kaworu feels reflected in Shinji).

However, a connection with NGE makes things unnecessarily complicated. I prefer to mantain the loop as self-contained for NTE, while NGE images (in Rei's Instrumentality) as meta references.

Yeah, and NGE Kaworu’s arc seems pretty concluded with his last scene in EoE. There was no lingering desire or hints of him launching a whole sequel. He seemed pretty content with his situation by the end of it all. Any claim that he would start a whole new story arc would be assuming a lot.

[T. K. Simon]

SPOILER: Show

Think of it this way, would NGE Kaworu be a part of that loop to be with Shinji? Doubtful. From his first appearance in Episode 24 he was trying to manipulate everything to get to Adam in the basement (later discovered to be Lilith) and cause Third Impact on his terms. NGE Kaworu’s feelings for NGE Shinji was just an unexpected development in his overall plan.

NTE Kaworu, on the other hand, doesn’t seem interested in Lilith at all, nor does he seem very interested in Impacts. His motivation is to get to NTE Shinji at all costs and coast on the happiness that he wants to give NTE Shinji. If NGE Kaworu and NTE Kaworu were one in the same, looping around to make Shinji happy, then NGE Kaworu wouldn’t have been the slightest bit interested in causing Third Impact, and Episode 24 would have actually looked way different.

The idea is that ep 24 was before the loop though.

also, I'd say that even og Kaworu was more resigned to his role than anything else. From the start he talks about how interesting human culture is & if he really "must" do this even if the price is the destruction of the Lillim. It's in this doubtful state that Kaworu introduces himself to the guy he's fated to duel to the death. He introduces himself to Rei, too, expecting to have more in common with her but Shinji's the one who's more receptive & latches onto him immediately cause he's desperate for any sort of connection... and Kaworu, presumably, did the same, for like reasons, even if he comes off as more in-control due to having a wee bit more social skills.
So he meets his fated enemy... and he's this sad little puppy boy who just wants to be loved, the epitome of everything that makes him feel bad for the humans. How do you destroy that face?
So he can't do it. He still views himself, correctly or incorrectly, as bound by 'destiny' tho, and the only option other than "destroy the Lillim" is "let them have the planet".
He tries to escape his hateful "role" through death, for the sake of freedom.

This much is just the OG series. The Rebuilds then are kind of an exploration of what would happen if that did not work.
He just wakes up in a SEELE lab. Or on the Moon. Back to the start. Even death could not liberate him.
He's probably in total despair at this point. His hope of escape is completely crushed.
But his mindset this time is very different; His decision re_ destroying the Lillim is already made. His attachment to Shinji remains.
He thinks, "If I can't be happy, then I am going to help the one person who was nice to me"
Maybe the hated destinxy becomes darkly comforting cause at least it means they'll meet again.
In Q, he's on the side of Shinji & the Lillim to begin with.
But also he can't really cheer Shinji up as much. In ep 24 his problem was feeling a bit lonely & forgotten, which a new friend certainly helps with;
In Q, Shinji's problem is that he was gone for 14 years and the world went to crap in his absence. That's a whole different order of magnitude, some nice words won't fix that. Kaworu was forced to watch his deterioration.
So, he does something rash. He proposes that they steal the spears, and he doesn't even explain very much in detail cause he has this idea that he's gonna take care of everything & fix it all for Shinji.
Shinji, of course, gladly accepts this since he is in no state to be doing much planning or thinking.
They run straight into a trap & each boy blames himself completely for the result.
Total disaster is only averted thanks to Mari and Asuka.

If we take the title literally there would only have been 3 "loops" (that assumes the 'endless number of coffins' was metaphorical of course)
Which means there was at least one where Kaworu just did exactly the same things (apart from the DC conversation with SEELE maybe?), like an actor reciting his text.


That said, it seems to be less a loop and more a parallel universe situation. The only one looping is Kaworu. He dies in one universe, he pops up in the next. He is kind of living the quantum suicide paradox. Other characters gain knowledge of this in the minus universe, but there's no indication that the world as a whole was ever 'reset'.
OG Shinji is still on the blue ball; EoE Shinji is still on the beach, or went to some unknown future from there, but whatever it is Kaworu doesn't know it since he disappeared from that 'verse.

Also there's an implication that Kaworu didn't just repeat his life as himself, but also that of Adam and possibly the FAR whose soul became Adam (Nebuchadnezzar?)... the idea that Adam wrote the scrolls already came up in NGE2. He possibly caused the differences between the continuities by tweaking the info in the scrolls.
In EoTV it sees that Shinji was cowering in some corner when he got tanged.
Next time, he winds up in control.

It seems like Kaworu was aiming for something similar in TuaT, too. Once Gendo is dealt with, he's like, "Okay Shinji, what do you want?"
Like he meant to put Shinji in charge EoE style so he could get whatever he wants or work out his issues.
The misunderstanding for which Kaworu apologizes then, is that Shinji's real salvation was not in someone coming & giving him salvation, but in the power to make positive changes by his ownstrength & deal with feelings of failing to do that.
It's not a solution Kaworu could have thought of because of how resigned & fatalistic he is underneath his dazzling smile.

Because, how did he spiral into despair in the OG series? Everyone he cared about was met with horrible fates and Shinji couldn't pull himself together enough to even try to help very much.

In that sense Toji's advice was probably very salient, especially that scene where he talks about the sadness & regret he feels when he can't save a patient & how he channels this into working harder.
It's not per se a rational regret - some people really can't be saved - but it's a feeling that Shinji had no model for dealing with other than "hate himself even more until you give up on everything".

Very good Kendrix explanation.

For you, does Rebuild have its own cycle, separate from nge and eoe?

Does Kaworu jump from universes, or dimensions?

The Seele Rebuild logo, if not a metaphor, could indicate that there is a loop for Kaworu, but only for RoE.

Do not quote a entire post. Trim it down to the relevant bit you’re addressing. - JoelcrNeto

[Kendrix]

Yeah, and NGE Kaworu’s arc seems pretty concluded with his last scene in EoE. There was no lingering desire or hints of him launching a whole sequel. He seemed pretty content with his situation by the end of it all. Any claim that he would start a whole new story arc would be assuming a lot.

That new arc would be set in motion by NTE itself just by having him survive.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

That new arc would be set in motion by NTE itself just by having him survive.

Yeah, but there’s no real indication of that in NGE, and NTE doesn’t have Kaworu refer back to NGE specifically in the slightest. This is why this would be a rather large assumption for me. The two Kaworu characters are way too different, and no link between them is divulged to the audience.

But that’s just me. This whole thing might be to the fandom what Concurrency Theory was to NGE; something debated back and forth until people get tired of talking about it, only to have people refer to either side of the debate when discussing other topics.

[Konja7]

Regarding the Sequel theory, I think Anno and Khara want to leave that open to debate and interpretation.

That's why we have NGE images in Rei's Instrumentality.

I don't think the Seele logo is just a meta thing, the coffins already existed since 1.0, if the world reboots, the coffin should also be the case, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

In Kaworu's Instrumentality, the coffins work as symbolic representation from the Eternal cycle Kaworu is trapped.

However, these coffins really existed in 1.11. Then these ​had a real function.

It seemss these coffins are how SEELE created Kaworu, while the open coffins are the failed attempts.

[T. K. Simon]

SPOILER: Show

In Kaworu's Instrumentality, the coffins work as symbolic representation from the Eternal cycle Kaworu is trapped.

However, these coffins really existed in 1.11. Then these ​had a real function.

It seemss these coffins are how SEELE created Kaworu, while the open coffins are the failed attempts.

It may be like that, but the metaphorical coffins would only indicate that there is an infinite cycle, only to rebuild.

[mastafishere]

It's funny, I come here and I see so much support against the sequel theory. I go on Reddit and people are very much pro sequel theory. Even sillier (me being the silly one) is the fact that I go to Reddit to put forth the argument that it's not a sequel and I'm met with hostility. I come here to seek proof that isn't a sequel and I'm not convinced fully yet.

Personally, I don't want it to be a sequel but I don't want what I want to obscure the facts. I can twist things around to make it not a sequel but, in the end, I see too much evidence in support of it. It doesn't change how I feel about the movies (loved them, especially the last one) nor do I think that it even matters all that much beyond how it affects Kaworu. I'm just glad there wasn't some BS like "this can't happen because it's not supposed to happen" like another high-profile remake that came out last year.

To the Evageeks community's credit, the discussion and arguments have been respectful for the most part here. I've really enjoyed seeing the movie dissected in the past few days. As of right now, I believe Anno intentionally left things ambiguous so there's a chance that a true consensus will never be reached on this. If I had to choose a "side" it's very much anti-sequel, but I think there's just too much supporting evidence for pro-sequel.

[T. K. Simon]

SPOILER: Show

It's funny, I come here and I see so much support against the sequel theory. I go on Reddit and people are very much pro sequel theory. Even sillier (me being the silly one) is the fact that I go to Reddit to put forth the argument that it's not a sequel and I'm met with hostility. I come here to seek proof that isn't a sequel and I'm not convinced fully yet.

Personally, I don't want it to be a sequel but I don't want what I want to obscure the facts. I can twist things around to make it not a sequel but, in the end, I see too much evidence in support of it. It doesn't change how I feel about the movies (loved them, especially the last one) nor do I think that it even matters all that much beyond how it affects Kaworu. I'm just glad there wasn't some BS like "this can't happen because it's not supposed to happen" like another high-profile remake that came out last year.

To the Evageeks community's credit, the discussion and arguments have been respectful for the most part here. I've really enjoyed seeing the movie dissected in the past few days. As of right now, I believe Anno intentionally left things ambiguous so there's a chance that a true consensus will never be reached on this. If I had to choose a "side" it's very much anti-sequel, but I think there's just too much supporting evidence for pro-sequel.

Is there really evidence that it is a sequel?

What makes Eva so famous is that we do not receive confirmations of almost anything. It is interpretation.

The "sequel" evidence can easily be interpreted differently, resulting in just the opposite, obviously making your point and arguing.

[Archer]

First off, Redditors are, by and large, smoothbrains, and you are wasting your time if you actually expect to get actual discussions out of a website literally built around farming fake internet points for artificial validation. I like that there’s no fake Internet points here - the only validation you get is through an actual discussion of ideas and viewpoints.

Anyways, care to lay out that evidence and why you think it supports “sequel theory”? I haven’t seen any evidence that can’t easily be written off as a metafictional reference that’s not meant to be taken literally.

[mastafishere]

SPOILER: Show

Is there really evidence that it is a sequel?

What makes Eva so famous is that we do not receive confirmations of almost anything. It is interpretation.

The "sequel" evidence can easily be interpreted differently, resulting in just the opposite, obviously making your point and arguing.

I agree completely. The specific argument I just got into states that Gendo wants an AT field-less future that Shinji had rejected, and he says this in past tense, therefore it had to have happened already. When I argued it was probably Gendo looking into the Chamber of Guf and Katsuragi proving the possibility of a world without AT Fields (this is stated in the movie) and seeing another universe that could be NGE, they argued that it can't be a multi-verse since there's only evidence of two universes, the NTE and the Anti and that everything HAD to be happening at the same time.

Personally, the biggest piece of evidence for me is the Kaworu coffins. I can't reconcile the fact that they physically exist and it not being one timeline. The argument I see here that NGE could be the START of a loop makes a lot of sense to me. Again, much to my personal dismay haha

[T. K. Simon]

Everyone has their point of view, yes, I have already left my own thread of why it could not be a sequel (high publicity)

https://forum.evageeks.org/thread/20981/Theory-Different-realities-EoE-NGE-RoE/

Kaworu's coffins have a seele rebuild symbol, they already appeared before, if it is not a metaphor, possibly rebuild has its own internal loop, without connection to nge / eoe

Do not double post, unless it’s necessary – JoelcrNeto

[Archer]

See, I see the Kaworu coffins as the biggest piece of evidence against sequel theory. Because, ya know, they don’t exist in NGE.

There’s certainly lots of circumstantial evidence one can read into if they so desire. But it’s all circumstantial, and as far as I’m concerned, unless something literally cannot be explained by anything other than the Rebuilds being a sequel, I’ll continue believing that any incidental similarities and references are purely meta textual.