Konja7 wrote:In my case, when it's about character development or plot, I think something is good if I enjoy it (or bad if I don't). I know this sounds pretty centrist, but these are my honest feelings.
nerv bae wrote:I think this is a fair point about how I've been approaching this topic as one of the "defenders." The liberal arts side of my brain is woefully underdeveloped and that's the excuse I'll use for why a lot of my "defense" has pointed to the mere existence of authorial intent, rather than its quality. The next time I have a point to make in this topic, I'll try to improve in this sense.
Not gonna pretend you two speak for all the “defenders” and that I speak for all the “critics”… but I suspect that, at its core, THIS is the real root cause for probably 90% of the disagreements regarding the Rebuilds.
Konja7 wrote:I don't think an objective opinion can be formed about whether the writing of the characters or the plot is good or not. After all, people are drawn by different things in these aspects.
Okay, to be fair, I’m also conflating (…more or less) objective qualities, such as “is X character’s action during the climax consistent with their characterization and development?”, with the subjective value judgment of “good” or “well-written”. Now of course, different people can have different opinions on whether or not “X character’s action during the climax is consistent with their characterization and development”, but this is at least a debate that can be couched in specific textual evidence. When I say “X is a well-written character”, what’s ACTUALLY being implied is, “In my opinion, a character who is portrayed consistently and is given good development throughout the series can be considered “well-written”; based on A, B, C textual evidence, I believe that X character has a consistent characterization that grows through the series; therefore, based on the textual evidence I have presented and the metrics I have defined for what I consider to be a well-written character, I believe that X is a well-written character.” Obviously it’s impossible to fully remove subjectivity from the interpretation and critique of media, but we can at least get on a common playing field where we are being as objective as reasonably possible given the context.
Yeah. This is probably influenced by my relatively low appreciation for NGE, but I've never felt the need to compare NGE and NTE.
See, up until 3.0+1.0, I would’ve agreed on principle that the Rebuilds should be judged independently as their own separate thing, because through 3.0, the Rebuilds DO have their own consistent, self-contained narrative that can theoretically be enjoyed and understood independently, without having ever watched NGE. I’m also one of those weirdos who actually watched the Rebuilds first (this was well into the hiatus, so I binged 1.0-3.0 all in one sitting) and it passed at least a basic level of coherency such that I could mostly follow the plot and understand what was going on without wondering “huh why did that happen?” every five minutes only to Google it and find out that it’s some reference to NGE that I couldn’t have possibly understood without watching beforehand.
However, 3.0+1.0 is so transparently and in-your-face metatextual that I argue it not just invites, but
demands comparison to NGE. It literally starts at the title - far as I can tell,
Thrice Upon a Time makes absolutely NO SENSE as a standalone title, and can ONLY be understood in its metatextual context as the third “ending of Evangelion”, after EoTV and EoE. This after 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0’s titles, which are all fairly easy to understand within the context of the Rebuild’s own self-contained narrative. I simply cannot comprehend a new viewer going into this movie without having watched NGE and being able to piece together what the hell is going on. There are MAJOR plot points that, as far as I can interpret, ONLY makes sense watching the movie metatextually as a “goodbye to all of Evangelion”. Most notably,
the goddamned loop. If we ignore the existence of NGE, and consider ONLY the four Rebuild movies as their own narrative, which can broadly be said to be a maturing/coming of age story for Shinji… how the HELL does the loop play into this, thematically? Ignoring 1.0 which is mostly just a re-introduction to the world… I think broadly speaking 2.0 and 3.0 actually have a pretty solid narrative and thematic through-line, where 2.0 could be said to involve Shinji learning to do things for himself instead of just following other people’s orders (culminating with him trying to save Rei because it’s what
he wants to do), while 3.0 could be said to involve Shinji learning that free will is a double-edged sword: being free to make your own choices means taking credit for success, but it also means
taking the blame for failure, and that desperately trying to
undo your mistake isn’t going to fix things, and is indeed liable to make things even worse. Now, broadly speaking, 3.0+1.0 DOES provide the logical thematic follow-up: the correct path forward isn’t to wallow in regret wishing you could’ve done things differently, but to take responsibility for what you’ve done, make amends with those you’ve wronged and doing your best to make things right going forward. And I think 3.0+1.0 does a reasonably good job of communicating this theme…
until the god damned friggin loop.Introducing an in-universe time loop implies that Shinji has fucked up countless times before this, and only on this loop does he learn to take responsibility for his actions, let go of the past, and move on towards a brighter future. The thing is though, the main crux of Shinji’s journey toward making this realization is basically over by Act 1, when he steps on the Wunder, ready to pilot the Eva again - not on someone else’s orders, not to atone for the past and desperately try to fix his mistakes, but as his own choice, to start making things right. This all happens
well before Shinji or the audience is aware of any time loop. Which begs the question:
what changed in this iteration to cause this change in perspective in Shinji? It certainly isn’t anything HE did knowingly, because he’s only ever made aware of the time loop AFTER he “recovers”. The only reasonable assumption is that this time Kaworu did something different as he, being the instigator of the loop, is likely the only character capable of enacting any changes between loops. But then, if a key theme is Shinji’s
self-actualization, then having the agent of change in his life being a third party making changes without his knowledge undermines that as his own achievement in introspection and self-reflection. And in the hypothetical scenario that Shinji DID find out about the looping earlier, and used his newfound knowledge of the loops to make different decisions this time around that finally yielded a happy ending, this would ALSO undermine the idea of his “growth” as the result of a fundamentally
introspective thought process.
Seriously, I think the one thing I can confidently say the Rebuilds handle REALLY well, 10/10 wouldn’t change a thing, is the portrayal of his “recovery” in Village-3. It does an amazing job (within the constraints of being just 1/3 of an already bloated runtime) of semi-realistically portraying someone recovering from grief/emotional trauma/depression. In that state of mind, there is nothing anybody could
actively do to help you - the only thing they can do is to be there for you, and be patient waiting for you as you work on yourself. And this is, in fact, how it goes: Rei goes to visit him every day, but she doesn’t actively DO anything for him - she CAN’T actively do anything for him, but her very presence signals to him (perhaps unconsciously) that she cares about him, and wants him to get better. Asuka certainly isn’t the type to make her presence known, and I don’t recall if it’s ever shown or implied that he ever
notices her watching him from the shadows at the abandoned NERV facility, but it’s at least a signal to the
audience that despite her cold demeanor, she too cares about Shinji, and is likely relaying his status back to at least Kensuke and possibly the others as well. The best part is that he doesn’t suddenly come to an epiphany in a couple of days - it’s implied that he’s sulking at the destroyed NERV base for
at least several weeks, if not several months (idk, maybe you’d be able to make a rough estimate from Rei Q’s rice farming activity?), and when he’s finally crawled out from his hole and is ready to face the future, everyone welcomes him back with open arms, happy to see him well again. IMO, the implications of a time loop - that his recovery and self-actualization in this final loop
isn’t the result of deep introspection and self-reflection, but is in fact due to the influence of a third party (presumably Kaworu.. somehow?), or due to supernatural knowledge gained from knowledge of the time loop - COMPLETELY destroys this very beautiful and very
human sequence.
Warning, Madoka Magica Spoilers (if you’ve watched it you will know why it’s relevant):
Madoka Magica is my favorite time-loop story, because unlike in 3.0+1.0, not only is the time-loop used as an in-universe justification for Madoka’s inexplicably high power level (something that is initially assumed to be a plot contrivance because of course the protagonist must be special), it also works on a thematic level: Madoka, like Shinji, is a character who largely lacks agency. The time loop is an absolutely BRILLIANT reinforcement of that theme, revealing that this entire time Madoka has been, for all intents and purposes, the princess at the end of the level that Homura has died countless times trying to save. What triggers the change in the final loop is that this is the first time she’s made aware of that she’s actually been stuck in a time loop this whole time. Empowered by the knowledge of the looping events, and realizing that Homura has basically soft-locked herself into a no-win scenario where every possible decision ends in Madoka transforming into a witch and detonating the planet with her countless time-loops worth of accumulated magical girl energy, Madoka is able to finally take agency and make the decision to sacrifice herself to save her friend from the endless hell that she was trapped in. The reason the time loop doesn’t contradict the theme in Madoka Magica is because while she is spurred on by Kyubey revealing the time loop, she still retains her agency by deciding to act based on that information. Honestly, it’s not dissimilar to Shinji going after Rei at the end of 2.0 after being spurred on by Misato’s encouragement.
So basically my thesis is that the time loop actively contradicts and undermines a core emotional/thematic pillar of the movie, which is the idea that Shinji’s growth is organic and self-actualized. So why the hell does it exist? Well, as a metatextual reference to the IRL “loops” of NGE and EoE. And before anyone gets on my ass, I hate loop theory and the idea that NGE/EoE literally happens in the same continuity as the Rebuilds; I am talking
purely metatextually where the “in universe” loop (which isn’t explained beyond being something that Kaworu did) is a metatextual metaphor for the IRL sequence of NGE>EoE>Rebuilds. I’ve written this before, but when considered metatextually, the key change from NGE/EoE is that instead of being
literally isolated from anyone who could possibly help him, Shinji is now surrounded by people who care about him and want him to get better, and is merely
psychologically isolating himself from them. So, even when considered metanarratively, this yields the unsatisfying implied message that the answer to depression is to just have a support network that will be endlessly patient with you, and that if you don’t, well… guess you can just go fuck yourself. I hope I don’t have to explain why, thematically, this is an absolutely
terrible and counter-productive message, and I think this is likely where most of the accusations of 3.0+1.0 being “toxic positivity” or a “unearned happy ending” comes from. When you go
one more level up though, it makes a lot more sense: the loop is no longer about Shinji, but about
Anno, the writer of Shinji. The bleak ending of NGE/EoE would’ve been reflective of his own depression at the time, where the psychological isolation of feeling that nobody cares about you was reflected in Shinji’s
literal isolation at the end of Ep 24. Whereas the “final” loop reflects Anno in a much healthier state of mind, and the new inclusion of a support system that helps him through is recovery is symbolic of the realization that, this entire time, there were ALWAYS people that cared about him. Narratively, the message of the movie is actively undermined by the time loop. Metanarratively, the message is completely nonsensical at best, actively harmful at worst. Go up one more level though, though, it’s very obviously Anno reflecting on his work and his change in mental state, and I highly doubt that he meant it to be
instructive for how you should live your life or how you can cure your own depression.
TL;DRAnyway, that was way too long of a text wall for me to basically say that I think that when taken at a narrative level, the inclusion of the time loop completely undermines the message of the Rebuilds, of Shinji growing through introspection and self-reflection, with the passive love and support of his friends. Even one level of meta-narrative up (the metatextual loop between NGE/EoE and Rebuilds), the implied message - “just have a support network lmao” - is at best nonsensical and unhelpful, and is at worst actively harmful to someone in a similar position who might be watching the movie. However, when you go
one more level beyond the metatextual (patatextual?), and consider the loop not for Shinji the fictional character as viewed by the audience throughout the Evangelion franchise, but for
Anno the writer whose mental state was reflected metaphorically in the scenarios he put Shinji in between NGE/EoE and Rebuilds, the inclusion of the loop as a not a narrative device to convey the themes of the Rebuilds as a standalone narrative, or even a meta-narrative device to reflect on the development of the Evangelion franchise as a work of fiction that exists in the real world, but as a
patanarrative device that reflects on
Anno’s own growth since NGE, filtered through the fictional abstraction of his magnum opus. It’s late, I have not and probably will not edit this text-wall for clarity so I cannot guarantee it makes any sense structurally… the only thing I’m reasonably sure about is that I’m about pata levels up my own ass right now.
STILL TL;DR