NTE characters and their relationships

[Javi2541997]

I going to sound so damn romantic but Kaworu and Shinji are perfect to be friends. Keep in mind that Kaworu always wants the best for Shinji and makes him a better person, developing his skills.
You can see this example in a beautiful scene from 3.0 where Kaworu teaches Shinji how to play piano. Sinji rejects to start and escape (as always) but Kaworu forces him to just make little try and then see what happens. After the first try Shinji wants perfection playing the piano with kaworokun all the days. This is true friendship. It has not to be homosexual. It doesn't have sexual affection. Kaworu wants Shinji to be happy with himself.
I guess this is the main reason why he feels so disappointed that he says "sorry this is not the happiness you have expected" and kills himself for the good of Shinji (this is just my guess and thought abou Kaworu role and relationship with Shinji)
In the other hand, sometimes it feels so disturbing when Asuka is always "Baka Shinji" in NTE. Ayanami is not the sme as he knows. Misato is nihilist towards Shinji and Ritsuko wants to revenge against him and his father.

So one of the few faiths Shinji could has is another development with Kaworu.

[FXArmaros98]

Ep 22 gets clear that yes, he has entered in her heart, very deep.....to her dismay. Never forget that the closure of the story es the (ambiguous) closure of their relationship.

Indeed, the fact that Asuka went crazy as soon as she saw Shinji in her mind is the greatest proof of how bad it must have been to fight herself every time she tried to deny herself that she had any feelings for him. Unfortunately many people interpret the Kimoche Warui and Asuka's cold gaze as a total rejection of Shinji and that even her caress instead of being a genuine gesture of affection was her way of thanking him for being about to kill her These people must be so used to classic love anime that they have no idea how Asuka and Shinji's relantionship have worked until EOE. I mean you can hate a person's actions without really being able to feel a grudge so deep that you don't even want to see him again. The example of this is Shinji who despite hating his father and apparently wanting to kill him in ep. 19 after Gendo used the dummy system, Shinji actually still wanted a normal relationship with him despite the growing grudge against him. Asuka was certainly angry and disgusted by the fact that he masturbated on her and didn't run to help her but instead of hating him completely she must still have feelings for him.

You sure about that?

I've always interpreted that scene as a simple reaction of theirs to the teasing of their classmates, it may be that maybe Shinji had a little attraction for Asuka but it certainly doesn't even come close to the kind of obsession we saw in EOE.I could be wrong but I think Asuka's crush on Shinji could have started not after their chat on the bed and as a mockery from their classmates, but rather when Shinji started giving Rei the lunch box (in the same scene where Asuka first spoke to Hikari), and there that Asuka first manifested jealousy.

What's the point of showing again that iconic scene from NGE if is not for setting something for the future? Just fanservice?

Maybe that scene will be used as one of Asuka's few positive memories if she really will have a bitter conversation with Shinji about how she felt about him in those 14 years between 2.0 and 3.0.

I dunno. We see them together a lot of time in NGE, and they have plenty of important moments, but did they get quite as direct as sleeping in the same bed having a pretty open heart to heart?

Well Shikinami is a quite different Asuka from Soryu. The fact that she didn't have a crush on Kaji and not least showed pride in being the most popular girl in the school unlike Soryu makes us understand that this Asuka was more lonely and find herself better with her lonely condition, until the clash with 8th Angel caused her doubts which led her to feel the need for a human contact.

Don't get me wrong, one of my issues with 2.0 is that I think it needed a litlle more Asuka Shinji interaction to have the second half have even more of an effect.

Although I don't want 3.0 + 1.0 to become an Asunashin movie I have to admit that I actually hope the scene of Asuka and Shinji sharing the bedroom could somehow pulled out to give more weight and importance to a one of their possible interaction while they have to live together on the Wunder

Funny thing : in 3.0, save for the Wunder ignition, all Asuka's scenes imply Shinji's participation. Her role is defined by her interactions with him.

I may seem like a pain in the ass but I think it is due only to the priority of the plot, if this will really have a weight on 3.0 + 1.0 I will be happy to be proven wrong about my doubts.

I also wouldn't understate what Shin could potentially do. That's an entire film.

Exactly. We can't see into the future. Anno could have some nice surprises in mind about the interactions between the characters.

[BernardoCairo]

Just a reminder that episode 24 opens with happy young Asuka finding her mother had hanged herself. The scene you refer to appears in the heretical document known as 24'.

When I said it opens the episode, it was not in the literal sense. I meant that this segment takes place very early in its plot (it is the second scene, if I'm not mistaken).
By the way, I laughed at how you described the Director's Cut hahaha. Yes, there are some "questionable" things about it (to say the least). But, I think that this version of this episode is considered to be the definitive one by a bunch of people. I mean, even EvaWiki pointed out things from DC, when talking about ep 24 in general.

On Shikinami and Shinji's relationship, I'm not gonna lie to myself here. I know it's not as explored as the one with Soryu. In fact, that's not even a competition. But, To say that they don't share any type of bond is equal to insanity! I mean, that was one of the central themes of 2.0! As said previously, 3.0 also makes a lot of efforts to show how Asuka is behaving towards Shinji in this new "post time-skip" setting. I mean, they even slept next to each other! It's not like they're strangers!
You know what? Shinji and Rei did have more scenes together in the Rebuilds. I will give you that pal! But, that Rei is long gone. The whole point of 3.0 was to show that Shinji can't go back and solve all of his problems at a blink. It would be so weird for "original Ayanami" to come back to life after that...
(I'm ignoring the "incest element", because it seems to not bother you, Mr. LightDragonman).
My bet is that there will be no romance in 3.0 + 1.0 and the insane shipping community will be caught off guard by it hahahaha (just kidding, I don't really know what will happen on this movie at all hahaha).

[FXArmaros98]

I mean, that was one of the central themes of 2.0!

BernardoCairo on this I must necessarily agree with you. If I remember correctly the scene of Shinji and Asuka sharing a bed was in one of the 2.0 trailers.Some fans and critics weren't particularly happy to see Asuka get a crush so quickly, but in a movie where she was just a sort of subplot while Shinji and Rei's relationship and hisr father's relationship was the main tpoic,what the hell could they do more not to make the role of Asuka too rushed?

As said previously, 3.0 also makes a lot of efforts to show how Asuka is behaving towards Shinji in this new "post time-skip" setting.

I hope that the Asuka's few good memories of Shinji in 2.0 can be used as a flashback if Asuka decides once and for all to tell Shinji how he made her feel in those 14 years between 2.0 and 3.0.

The whole point of 3.0 was to show that Shinji can't go back and solve all of his problems at a blink. It would be so weird for "original Ayanami" to come back to life after that...

I believe that the Rei that Shinji wants will be used not as a character in human form, but as the soul of Lilith who could play a big role in Final Impact. Maybe she and Kaworu if the Instrumentality were to happen they could appear in Shinji's mind and propose a new version of what we saw in EOE between they 3. But I agree with you that he cannot fix his mistakes and get the Rei back he wants in the literal sense.

My bet is that there will be no romance in 3.0 + 1.0 and the insane shipping community will be caught off guard by it hahahaha (just kidding, I don't really know what will happen on this movie at all hahaha).

I think Shinji will have to settle his feelings with both Kaworu and Rei before he has to forever say goodbye to them, I imagined a possible scene showing us their souls together, and Shinji as in EOE decides to live as a normal person (from this possible moment of the film could start playing One Last Kiss). Regarding the romance itself, I think we shouldn't be surprised if we see some sweet moments between Misato and Kaji (if he's alive) and maybe even Toji and Hikari (always assuming that all of these characters arrive alive at the end of the film). I can't really say if there could be more of romantism than some of us hope or absolutely 0.I'm not sure what to believe about what might happen in the movie because One Last Kiss upset my thoughts and ideas.

[LightDragonman]

On Shikinami and Shinji's relationship, I'm not gonna lie to myself here. I know it's not as explored as the one with Soryu. In fact, that's not even a competition. But, To say that they don't share any type of bond is equal to insanity! I mean, that was one of the central themes of 2.0! As said previously, 3.0 also makes a lot of efforts to show how Asuka is behaving towards Shinji in this new "post time-skip" setting. I mean, they even slept next to each other! It's not like they're strangers!
You know what? Shinji and Rei did have more scenes together in the Rebuilds. I will give you that pal! But, that Rei is long gone. The whole point of 3.0 was to show that Shinji can't go back and solve all of his problems at a blink. It would be so weird for "original Ayanami" to come back to life after that...
(I'm ignoring the "incest element", because it seems to not bother you, Mr. LightDragonman).
My bet is that there will be no romance in 3.0 + 1.0 and the insane shipping community will be caught off guard by it hahahaha (just kidding, I don't really know what will happen on this movie at all hahaha).

True, I don't expect the original Ayanami to actually come back to life (though that would be nice). But her presence still hangs over the story and Shinji's character, so I still want them to at least have one scene that can give them both closure. Not asking for them to get together (that would be nice also though), but for it to have a satisfying payoff, as it is the one that is arguably one of the biggest cores of the Rebuild saga (won't go into the whole debate of it being incest or not again).

And yeah, I don't expect romance in Shin. There is far too much to cover.

[BernardoCairo]

@FXArmaros98
In your last two paragraphs, I agree with everything you said. If these two appear, I am 100% sure that it will be metaphysically. You know, similarly to "Quantum Ayanami" in "One More Final: I Need You". They could also be appearing during possible Instrumentality sequences (which I believe that will take place somehow).
On the "goodbye sequence" that you suggested, that's also what I've been expecting for a long time. Shinji would realize that Ayanami and Kaworu, as he knew, are gone. They were not human, but unreachable and unreal (raw representations of his escapism).
Anyway, they were good friends while it lasted. So, it would make sense for Shinji to say warm goodbye before growing up and moving on as a human, first and foremost.
Similarly, I think that Kaworu and Rei should also move on from Shinji. They are angels with a universe of possibilities in their hands. It's quite a waste to build their whole lives around a human boy.

On romance, I'm not expecting to see it on the movie. I mean, if writers are able to close every character's arc, that's enough for me. I want to have fun and feel emotional while watching those people on screen, that's all. It doesn't really matter how 3.0 + 1.0 will do to achieve it.
Now, about Toji and Kaji, I would actually be delighted if they show up (even if it is just a cameo or something). But I'm keeping my hopes down, of course.

[FXArmaros98]

Anyway, they were good friends while it lasted. So, it would make sense for Shinji to say warm say goodbye before growing up and moving on as a human, first and foremost.
Similarly, I think that Kaworu and Rei should also move on from Shinji. They are angels with a universe of possibilities in their hands. It's quite a waste to build their whole lives around a human boy.

Exactly, as long as Rei and Kaworu are tied to Shinji none of the three could ever find peace. If Shinji's goal is to learn from his mistakes and accept himself for who he is in the same way Kaworu and Rei must understand that they too are "living beings", so they have the right not to let their life depend exclusively by someone.

Now, about Toji and Kaji, I would actually be delighted if they show up (even if it is just a cameo or something). But I'm keeping my hopes down, of course.

That Toji is still alive makes a lot of sense to me, remember that her sister works for Wille and in the December 24th trailer she was looking down at someone with emotion. About Kaji I really don't know, because both the revelation of his death and the fact that he may still be alive are important to both Shinji and Misato. If he is alive he could remind Shinji that he promised him that he would protect Misato since he couldn't as he wanted, and also he could be the one who encourages Misato to reveal to Shinji her past and what she is cared for in the 14 years between 2.0 and 3.0 and finally maybe even the person who will tell Misato that they have no choice but to let Shinji get back Eva 01 if Evangelion 13 is close to breaking Wille's ass completely. If Kaji is dead then I believe that the bloodstained armband Misato had in the trailer is actually all that's left of Kaji's outfit, which Misato probably kept hidden along with her cross to wear both in the final fight against Nerv.

On romance, I'm not expecting to see it on the movie. I mean, if writers are able to close every character's arc, that's enough for me. I want to have fun and feel emotional while watching those people on screen, that's all. It doesn't really matter how 3.0 + 1.0 will do to achieve it.

If I agree even if this point. I certainly don't expect to suddenly show us MayaXRitsuko becoming canon (LOL I remember that some fans saw the Brofist between Aoba and Hyuga as a yaoi gesture). I'm sure the film will focus a lot on how Shinji decides to deal with his father and how he has to convince Misato to give him back his trust.

[ShinjiStranglesAsuka]

so they have the right not to let their life depend exclusively by someone.

Since when do Kaworu and Rei's lives depend on Shinji?

[Javi2541997]

Since when do Kaworu and Rei's lives depend on Shinji?

Well it is a metaphysical scenario. Since Rei is literally his mother soul who is always been there and Kaworu believes he was born to meet/confronting Shinji... I guess in somehow environment they depend or are connected a lot to Shinji.

[FXArmaros98]

ShinjiStranglesAsuka what I wrote was not in the literal sense. I mean Rei II basically decided to use a suicide attack against the 10th Angel just to make Shinji no longer pilot the Evangelion, Rei Q seemed a little upset when Shinji say that say it's not his Ayanami . As far as Kaworu is concerned, this angel woke up on the moon saying he can't wait to see Shinji, then saying that he would make him happy with an expression that didn't bode well, and finally apparently decides to commit suicide by promising him that they would meet again.

I guess in somehow environment they depend or are connected a lot to Shinji.

Javi2541997 that's right, to some extent you said what I meant.What I realy try to means is that it seems Kaworu and Rei have no other reason to live than to be part of Shinji's life.

[ShinjiStranglesAsuka]

Still, Rei still had things going on in her life that didn't involve Shinji. I guess I can't really say the same for Kaworu given what we've seen so far lol so I'll concede on him.

[FXArmaros98]

Still, Rei still had things going on in her life that didn't involve Shinji

This is also true, before Shinji was Gendo the person she seemed to depend on. I wonder how Rei Q will behave with Shinji from now on given the fact that she has apparently started to develop a will and mentality of her own. I'm surprised that so far no one has taken into account the fact that Misato could tolerate Shinji but immediately take out Rei Q because she will certainly see her as a threat.Rei Q could just go back to Nerv while Asuka and Shinji are distracted. We don't know if Rei Q will survive and hold a rebellion against Gendo as Rei III did in EOE, or if she will die and the next Rei will have no memory and experience of Rei Q.

[Javi2541997]

Still, Rei still had things going on in her life that didn't involve Shinji. I guess I can't really say the same for Kaworu given what we've seen so far lol so I'll concede on him.

True! Agree with your point about Rei's choices but somehow involves Gendo. Then, if Ayanami makes some stuff according to Gendo directions will somehow affect indirectly towards Shinji. It is like a triangle that cannot be extinguished: Gendo - Ayanami - Shinji.

[FXArmaros98]

It is like a triangle that cannot be extinguished: Gendo - Ayanami - Shinji.

Yes unfortunately the only way in which Shinji could finally manage to no longer be part of this triangle of pain would be the final death of the other 2 sides.Maybe I'm a bit dramatic but I don't think Gendo even if he will become the lesser evil and temporarily on the side of the good due to a possible betrayal of Fuyutsuki and the possibility that Evangelion 13 and Lilith could play a bad joke on him I don't think he caves without being imprisoned, executed or simply killed while making one last attempt at Instrumentality.As for the side of the triangle that is Rei, well by now I think we all know that dying with the world and Shinji behind is part of her destiny.

[Javi2541997]

It is like a triangle that cannot be extinguished: Gendo - Ayanami - Shinji.

Yes unfortunately the only way in which Shinji could finally manage to no longer be part of this triangle of pain would be the final death of the other 2 sides.Maybe I'm a bit dramatic but I don't think Gendo even if he will become the lesser evil and temporarily on the side of the good due to a possible betrayal of Fuyutsuki and the possibility that Evangelion 13 and Lilith could play a bad joke on him I don't think he caves without being imprisoned, executed or simply killed while making one last attempt at Instrumentality.As for the side of the triangle that is Rei, well by now I think we all know that dying with the world and Shinji behind is part of her destiny.

Yes I agree with you. I guess this one of the important points we are going to see in the movie. As you said Rei's destiny is attached to instrumentality and Shinji. Gendo controls both. So yeah he will fight until the end to make his objectives done and reunite with Shinji and yui I guess

[BernardoCairo]

In the original series, some people may argue that Ayanami's arc was closed when she denied Gendo at Central Dogma. Personally, I disagree.
You see, even after refusing to meet Gendo’s needs, she wasn’t yet acting completely on her own. The first thing she did was to consult with Shinji about the Third Impact. She didn't make the decision to start or end the "event". Ayanami was just following another person's desire. She was just jumping from one "master figure" to another.
For me, the scene that concludes her arc is actually the one in which Shinji shakes her hand, after taking it out of his body. This moment shows that they can be friends, while also maintaining their individuality (their needs, their fears, their hopes and so on). It took some time, but Ayanami got it.
So yeah, the whole "Gendo-Ayanami-Shinji" is really important (in all of the continuities).

[Sailor Star Dust]

Slightly off the current discussion, but I'm assuming as a final film, we'll get quite a bit of content to wrap up the stories in terms of Asuka, Mari, and Misato. If it is a 2 hour movie, it should be pretty simple to tie in the character relationships/drama alongside the plot, especially if it's in terms of flashbacks. Either Asuka or Mari explaining the 14 year skip to Shinji, and Misato (after being shot?) talking to Shinji about Second Impact from her point of view. (Reichu has a post about the latter with Misato.)

Rei-2 and 6 are so central to the plot that I don't think fans have to worry in that sense, although I worry about the Rei(s) survival chances, for sure.

I'm sure it'll be an emotionally painful film, but I hope it won't be a high body count ala EoE, and a bit more hopeful in that regard.

[Javi2541997]

I'm sure it'll be an emotionally painful film, but I hope it won't be a high body count ala EoE, and a bit more hopeful in that regard.

Yes it will be a painful film. I only want that EVA life and theories never end. I mean it will be so painful if there is "flat" ending without philosophy or psychology. Probably this is something that will occur when Anno put in 3.0 + 1.0 BYE BYE ALL EVANGELION. Looking like it will be just an end with theories during 20 years lol.

[kuribo-04]

You see, even after refusing to meet Gendo’s needs, she wasn’t yet acting completely on her own. The first thing she did was to consult with Shinji about the Third Impact. She didn't make the decision to start or end the "event". Ayanami was just following another person's desire. She was just jumping from one "master figure" to another.
For me, the scene that concludes her arc is actually the one in which Shinji shakes her hand, after taking it out of his body

I like this. Hadn't quite viewd it that way.

[BernardoCairo]

Either Asuka or Mari explaining the 14 year skip to Shinji, and Misato (after being shot?) talking to Shinji about Second Impact from her point of view. (Reichu has a post about the latter with Misato.)

Yeah, I can actually see that happening.
For me, the movie will open with Asuka retrieving Shinji back to Wille's base. He will be in a complete state of inertia and she will try to wake him up. During the "conversation", she will talk about what happened during the 14 year time-skip (things about her life and the world in general). Anyway, none of this will work and he will remain in a state of extreme silence and mourning.
Back at the base, the Shinji will be transported to an isolated cell. In the meantime, Asuka and Mari will learn about their next mission through Misato.
After preparing for it, Asuka goes to visit Shinji. Separated by glass, they have a decent conversation. They are able to understand each other a little bit furthe. Shinji will be intrigued by some of the things she is saying to him, but Asuka will eventually leave.
During the battle, Mari and Asuka will have some problems and Misato, having no other options, will try to encourage Shinji one last time. In doing so, she will reveal what exactly happened during the Second Impact (at least from her perspective) and things will develop from there.
Gendo and "Ayanami Q" will also play some big role in all of this. But I have no idea what they are going to do. Like, at all.
Anyway, it will be an emotional movie. I hope...

I like this. Hadn't quite viewd it that way.

It's cool, right? I wish more people would talk about it...