Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby writer » Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:08 pm

View Original PostShikinamiBogard wrote:Following the path of science fiction we could say that there is a being that is the only one capable of traveling through these parallel universes, Kaworu the first and last angel (Yes, if you can use the phrase "this time I will show you true happiness") being this The one who always meets Shinji in each of the different paths (NGE / Manga / Rebuild), does not necessarily have to be the same Kaworu, it may be others before or after him, with the probability that he has a notion of what that is going to happen and tries to guide Shinji to happiness, however who always defines that destiny is Shinji since he always changes external circumstances, changes his way of acting since we can appreciate 3 slightly different Shinji both in NGE, Manga and Rebuild, using as an example his acting in Rebuild when he saves Ayanami changes everything with a simple action.


I too put weight on the : | sign at the end of :3.0+1.0, and feel that we're experiencing a loop in which Shinji is trying to find the right path to what truly will make him happy, or perhaps some lesson (like the lesson that if you want things done right you must do them yourself/personal responsibility for your own life), or will satiate both he and the rest of humanity, which is what we see during Instrumentality during EvaTV.

In the image above I have a sidenote about "Artifacts," pieces of the old world that were left over from the last loop. Things such as the outline of a dead angel in 1.0 would be artifacts; in your theory, perhaps these would be some sort of projection or redo of events that bled through the multiverse.

Kaworu and Rei/Lillith are both artificial artifacts; they are somehow able to retain their memories even beyond a time loop. It's my belief that they can do this because they are the two responsible for the original instrumentality and are attempting to bring their combined knowledge to Shinji to help him not repeat the same mistakes. They are also the tools or puppets of the two major organizations in play; Seele and NERV. Those organizations ensure them that they are present in every timeline (as long as they hold value).

Kaworu is loaded into new bodies by Seele, otherwise we'd see him appearing as an apparition as we do Rei II throughout the series; they have an engram of his soul and can summon it into a physical body any time. The same is true with Rei being implanted with Yui, and we know that ReiQ does not have Yui's data, which is why we still have the ghost Rei in 3.0. There are also the "new model" Ayanami series, which we may or may not see in action.

As for the "The first has become the last" idea, that also puts some weight to why we'd meet Kaworu in Eva13 in the new timeline created after the events of "Another Impact." Kaworu would then change from the last to the first. He would face off against Shinji immediately. I believe that Kaworu will have retained his memories and will manipulate Shinji into unlocking his latent potential and perhaps coach him on where to go to initiate the Final Impact.

This Shinji will have retained his memories because he has not had them wiped by Nerv/Seele, because they did not consider he would be able to start an impact in whichever Eva he's in, or that he didn't have the capability whatsoever. There is even some evidence that Misato retained some of her memories from EvaTV, and then EoE imagery we've seen in this last trailer makes me think that we'll see an instrumental state of all the characters helping Shinji figure out what he needs to do in order to set the record straight and cleanse the world of sin (or whatever it is he chooses to do).

There's a good vid that came out recently which discusses the titles, and I did use the analyses for the basis of my ideas as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ops28EQoEM

View Original Postlazysaturn wrote:I think it plays like a sequel and when you don’t learn from mistakes you are destined to repeat. ^_^


This is kind of an underlying idea in Loop theory; Shinji did not make the right decision to rebuild the world. No impact to date has lead Shinji to the world he envisioned, whether he remembers things consciously or subconsciously. It's likely he hasn't envisioned the world correctly at all, and is using Instrumentality to experiment with different emergences of potential to see how they play out. Asuka tells Shinji something along the lines of "All of that for a girl," and if we think back to not only 2.0 but also EoE, both 3rd Impact event was started because Shinji was reacting to losing Rei or Asuka. You could also argue that this Shinji overcame the barrier and "saved" Rei II (he is certain he saved her, unlike Asuka) because he still held some trauma through his mind-wipe of Asuka being torn apart by the Eva Series.

Shinji has learned a lot from his repeated loops. Even if his mind has been wiped, the effects of the events prior to each new beginning (Neon Genesis?) is burned into his subconscious, or soul. A Shinji-initiated, intentional Impact/Instrumentality will allow him to loop without having his mind wiped, retain knowledge all all previous iterations of himself, and make a choice free from outside influence. If Shinji is able to start instrumentality when he wants to, and for a specific reason; this is what Shinji was made for.

I view it roughly like:
EvaTV/EoE - Gendo wins
2.0/3.0: Seele wins
Thrice: Shinji/Yui/Humanity wins??

After that, [EvaTV]
and
THE END. [EoE]

NOT, [1.0, 2.0, 3.0 titles all contain (Not)]
and
ANTI. [Undoing? Rebellion?]

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:In NTE, there is no indication that the characters possess any memory of the events of NGE, so the idea of repeating mistakes you don't learn from doesn't really hold up


While characters may not have active memories, they are different. For example, Shinji is much quicker to get involved in the Eva project and is even able to change the sequence of events that lead up to the 3rd Impact because this version of Shinji was incarnated with the idea that the way to save his friends was to become stronger/more astute. This is not the way events played out, but instead we see N3I initiated long before the end-game and Kaworu played early to actually stop 3I and start the 14 year setup to what is termed 4th Impact (or the continuation of 3I from 2.0). It is possible that the 14 year "gap" between 2.0 and 3.0 was just a timeloop [13 years] + 1 year reborn, in which Shinji was not reincarnated (because he is trapped in Eva01, another artifact according to conditions in 3.0). The extra year was the time after the missing loop that Wille and NERV are reincarnated and gather Shinji from space, hoping that bringing him back because a world in which he did not exist lead to the same reality. Perhaps, in that reality, their Shinji is Mari, and Mari is an artifact of that world alongside the state of the planet and everything else. Perhaps when Shinji is not reincarnated there is no Kaworu, which is why he does not retain memories from 2.0 but rather from the original series (EoE).
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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby Zusuchan » Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:25 pm

The idea that NTE shows another incarnation of a time loop that started with or included NGE, the Sadamoto manga or literally any other Eva work has been thoroughly disproven by Anno and other people close to the production stating that NTE is its own work, separate from any other Eva continuity. And if you want to argue that they're just lying to keep the surprise fresh, then remind yourself of the proof that the evidence for the existence of such a time loop is extremely flimsy, that it hinges a lot on nonsensical things and that the main point of Q was literally "you can't redo the past, so stop trying to do so and focus on the present instead". A time loop or time travel of any kind, especially if they ended up being solutions, would destroy the entire central thesis of Q (as literally presented in its English title) and would seriously hinder the artistic and thematic quality of NTE as an artwork at the very least. Because a film series that seems to so far be about the importance of accepting your mistakes, growing up from childish desires and becoming a better person ending with a person engaging in yet another time loop in the idea that at the end it would be all great and fine would be the very equivalent of the childish, immature escapism NTE is so against. The only way I could tolerate time shenanigans is if they were stated to be caused by immature, childish people pursuing their immature, childish desires and be the cause for some Impact-like fucked-up stuff that ruins the lives of the perpetrators. Anything else would ruin NTE.

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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby writer » Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:31 pm

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:The only way I could tolerate time shenanigans is if they were stated to be caused by immature, childish people pursuing their immature, childish desires and be the cause for some Impact-like fucked-up stuff that ruins the lives of the perpetrators. Anything else would ruin NTE.


Could it be possible that Thrice will have Shinji throwing a tantrum during an Impact, resetting the timelines over and over again in rage and then learning the realities of his situation? It's just speculation, and of course I can't prove anything. But if we see a Shinji that retains his memories and takes true control over his destiny than not only will you be satisfied but so will I.

He is Alone
He Can Advance
He Can Redo
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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby Zusuchan » Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:50 pm

Apologies-I should have been a bit clearer. The thing is, even if Shinji were to restart the timeline constantly and realize the error of his ways, it would be good in terms of showing how the idea of redoing the past is a childish, immature desire, but it would still show it to be possible and perhaps even more crucially, have the main character partially succeed in doing a great act thanks to his previous immature act which is most decidedly not how these things work in the real world. In other words, I wouldn't want those time shenanigans to be successful in any way-rather, the attempt of successful time travel would cause yet another catastrophic event. The thing is that in real life you can't set the clock back and even the presence of something like that in NTE as anything else than an impossible, childish dream doomed to ruin lives would not just create a plot hole, but also create a very problematic final message. If time shenanigans are nothing else but impossible dreams, then it's fine-but the moment they enter the realm of possibility, of reality, then NTE has shot itself in the foot a little bit. Better to make people understand you can't ever redo than show them they can, but they just shouldn't. NTE is, despite its genre trappings, a work with a very empathic and realistic message and the fact that in the real world there is no such thing as time travel and even if there were, it would be a very bad way to become a better person, should be stated in NTE-which it is, what with Fuyutsuki explicitly saying that Shinji can't set the clock back and neither can anyone else.

At the end of the day, the statement remains that anything else but failed attempts at time manipulation would ruin NTE and that the existence of successful time manipulation in NTE has not been hinted at in any actual way.

(Also, discussing the parentheses present in the English titles, I think the idea is precisely the opposite of what you consider them to be-that Shinji thinks he's alone, he can advance and he can redo, but is proven wrong on all counts.)

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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby writer » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:15 pm

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:The thing is, even if Shinji were to restart the timeline constantly and realize the error of his ways, it would be good in terms of showing how the idea of redoing the past is a childish, immature desire, but it would still show it to be possible and perhaps even more crucially, have the main character partially succeed in doing a great act thanks to his previous immature act which is most decidedly not how these things work in the real world.


I think we learn more from our mistakes than from our successes in the real world. Shinji did not intentionally do anything wrong, and though he made some mistakes it's not really his fault. He was/is just a kid, and a Time Loop does not suggest there is no change in actual time, just that the events leading up to 3rd Impact continue to repeat. We can see artifacts on the surface world that show us that, just as instrumentality happening in EoE caused changes to the surface of the Earth, so will the choices Shinji makes through each new iteration make permanent impacts to the planet, the environment, and the people involved in the process. This is not a giving up scenario, but more of a "Keep trying until you succeed."

The more Shinji retains, the more he can search and discover what he's meant to do; what his true purpose is. Having a competent Shinji who, after learning he is alone, sets forward to take actions that create an understanding of truth and a defined path forward is growth. What Shinji will decide and how he will come to that decision are what I leave up to Anno to explain in true 25-26/EoE fashion.

It's not redoing the past to try to make things right as much as it's returning to the beginning in order to rewrite the end; they sound like the same, but the difference is that Shinji was never in control over anything in the beginning of Eva, or really any point in EvaTV/EoE. Shinji returning to 1.0 in order to rewrite it based on everything he's learned since becoming an Eva Pilot will lead us all to the grand finale and resolution to Shinji's destiny.
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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby Tumbling Down » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:23 pm

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:Because a film series that seems to so far be about the importance of accepting your mistakes, growing up from childish desires and becoming a better person ending with a person engaging in yet another time loop in the idea that at the end it would be all great and fine would be the very equivalent of the childish, immature escapism NTE is so against.

I agree. I thought an implicit part of the time loop theory is that the time loop would be broken as our heroes finally get to move on.

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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby writer » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:53 pm

View Original PostTumbling Down wrote:I agree. I thought an implicit part of the time loop theory is that the time loop would be broken as our heroes finally get to move on.


I don't know what comes after the loop is finalized, but I think it will be an ending rather than some new beginning. Perhaps some characters will get new chances at lives that we'll see (perhaps the Young Asuka in the most recent trailer is evidence of that), but it will be a world free of Seele's pacts, Gendo's manipulations, Adam, and Lillith. No one is going to move on, but rather a new reality will be sculpted that will free humanity from the chains it was placed in thousands of years ago and allow for a new beginning; a world without Angels or Evangelions or Wille or Nerv or anything that could cause another impact event.

Shinji is going to accept the results of his actions and the results of the attempts made by himself and others. Through this he will learn his purpose, and then; Bye-Bye all of Evangelion.
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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby Zusuchan » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:59 pm

The problem with Shinji returning to the time loop to make sure things turn out better this time is that it is a possibility born out of a childish, immature desire. You can't go back in time and if NTE showed that, then it would be engaging in escapism. Anno wants people to get better, but telling them "if you make a mistake, it's alright, just rewind the past", certainly isn't going to do that. There's a very large difference between a) trying to amend your mistakes and constantly attempting to become a better person through renewed attempts and b) just rewinding time each time you want to do another attempt. The first is possible and fine, the second impossible and speaks to childishness. Saying that if you made mistakes, just go back in time and don't make them is false and childish and escapist because it speaks of a wish for a simple world where mistakes can be erased and people don't have to live with the actual consequences of them. Shinji will have to face the consequences of his actions and rebooting a time loop is not going to actually help with that. Having him face those consequences only in his own brain is a cheap way out because he doesn't actually live with the real, tangible consequences such as a partially dead world and ruined relationships.

All of the thematic implications for successful time travel would ruin the thesis of "you can't redo the past, stop wallowing in the past, live in the present" (a crucial and extremely important message of Q).

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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby writer » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:05 pm

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:All of the thematic implications for successful time travel would ruin the thesis of "you can't redo the past, stop wallowing in the past, live in the present" (a crucial and extremely important message of Q).


Since Shinji is a being trapped in time loops, I don't really agree with your perspective. Instead I view it as something akin to "if at first you don't succeed, try try again." Shinji has tried letting other being in control, he has tried giving up, and I think he will try other possibilities until he finally realizes that in order to find a solution he must take control of his own life and make decisions that will sculpt a new future. It's not "Just go back in time and change your life," it's "Don't give up; it takes time, trial and error to succeed."
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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby FXArmaros98 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:15 pm

View Original Postwriter wrote:
View Original PostZusuchan#904198 wrote:All of the thematic implications for successful time travel would ruin the thesis of "you can't redo the past, stop wallowing in the past, live in the present" (a crucial and extremely important message of Q).


Since Shinji is a being trapped in time loops, I don't really agree with your perspective. Instead I view it as something akin to "if at first you don't succeed, try try again." Shinji has tried letting other being in control, he has tried giving up, and I think he will try other possibilities until he finally realizes that in order to find a solution he must take control of his own life and make decisions that will sculpt a new future. It's not "Just go back in time and change your life," it's "Don't give up; it takes time, trial and error to succeed."

I could be wrong but I remember that in the months when Shin Eva was still scheduled for summer 2020, Khara on her social networks had posted a rather strange sentence quotes: after taking a step forward you go back to others 3 or something like that....I don't know if this really has anything to do with time loop and time travel but it certainly has to do with the growth of Shinji

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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby Blockio » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:01 am

View Original Postwriter wrote:Since Shinji is a being trapped in time loops, I don't really agree with your perspective.

He is not! We have presented you a lot of evidence towards why your hypothesis (I refuse to call it a "theory" since that term implies at least some degree of evidence towards it, which you have failed to produce aross the board), yet you brushed it all off with "no, it's going to happen like that because I know it's going to happen like that".

This is going to be rough to you, I wish I could say I'm sorry, but I am really not.
What you are saying is hot bullshit, and a poor excuse for a hypothesis even.
The main part about theorizing is not what you think is going to happen, but rather why you think it is going to happen. Presenting evidence towards it, debunking counterevidence. You have done none of that. What you are proposing is not a theory, it is poorly written fanfiction employing the worst tropes in the book. Nothing about what you are saying has any precedent withing NTE, no evidence pointing towards it, it is purely and entirely wishful thinking. If you go into the movie convinced that events have to play out like that, I can tell you right now that you are going to absolutely hate it, and write angry posts about how Anno has betrayed and backstabbed you personally and how literally noone could see this coming, when the version you are proposing is exactly that, a deus ex machina wish fullfillment power fantasy with exactly zero foreshadowing or buildup.
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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby Settie » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:12 am

I've viewed NTE as a journey where Shinji has to deal with his and everyone elses decisions and dealing with the consequences of said decisions. So him getting a redo button when things go wrong cheapens the entire journey, it'd be no different than playing a game and going 'well i've fucked up' and simply starting over. Life doesn't have redo buttons and no easy answers, so if the story is to have any lasting emotional impact, it needs to keep itself grounded.

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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby Jäeger » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:03 am

View Original PostSettie wrote:I've viewed NTE as a journey where Shinji has to deal with his and everyone elses decisions and dealing with the consequences of said decisions. So him getting a redo button when things go wrong cheapens the entire journey, it'd be no different than playing a game and going 'well i've fucked up' and simply starting over. Life doesn't have redo buttons and no easy answers, so if the story is to have any lasting emotional impact, it needs to keep itself grounded.


And first of all what has the movies show us to make somebody think about time manipulation?

NOTHING

AT ALL

AFTER 25 YEARS, SOME PEOPLE WANT TIME TRAVE IN EVANGELION BECAUSE IT FITS IN THEIR FANFICS.
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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby intermediateO » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:27 am

View Original PostJäeger wrote:And first of all what has the movies show us to make somebody think about time manipulation?

NOTHING

AT ALL

AFTER 25 YEARS, SOME PEOPLE WANT TIME TRAVE IN EVANGELION BECAUSE IT FITS IN THEIR FANFICS.


As someone who hates time travel stories and wants it nowhere near Evangelion, at this point, the writing is pretty much on the wall to me.

With 1.0 and 2.0, Kaworu's too familiar lines made fans go, "Wouldn't it be crazy if Kaworu was a time slipper?"

But then, 3.0's plot comes along and basically makes zero sense if Kaworu wasn't saying that the spears could be used to do some sort of time-travel or reset.

Then Avant comes along and literally has time manipulation. The city isn't simply un-corified, it returns everything to a pristine pre-corification condition. All wear and degradation gone. Even the trees are completely ressurected.

And now the most recent trailer has a reset Tokyo-3.

And the most recent poster has a reset Asuka.

So yeah, they've already had time manipulation, and they are unfortunately hinting at more.

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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby Arcadia's legacy » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:30 am

For Kaworu's line, there is an alternative explanation. In jo, mind erasure was mentioned, in ha, Kaworu refers to Shinji as if they had met before, and in Q we learn that Shinji has had his mind erased in the past. Who's to say Kaworu wasn't among those memories?
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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby intermediateO » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:44 am

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:For Kaworu's line, there is an alternative explanation. In jo, mind erasure was mentioned, in ha, Kaworu refers to Shinji as if they had met before, and in Q we learn that Shinji has had his mind erased in the past. Who's to say Kaworu wasn't among those memories?


That was among my hopes through 2.0, but 3.0 kinda goes completely against this since Kaworu suddenly doesn't show that familiarity anymore and even treats his time with Shinji as a destined first meeting.

Either Kaworu got his own memories erased between 2.0 and 3.0 then, or this Kaworu isn't the same as the one from 2.0, whether through cloning or time travel.

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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby Jäeger » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:15 am

View Original PostintermediateO wrote:
View Original PostArcadia's legacy#904264 wrote:For Kaworu's line, there is an alternative explanation. In jo, mind erasure was mentioned, in ha, Kaworu refers to Shinji as if they had met before, and in Q we learn that Shinji has had his mind erased in the past. Who's to say Kaworu wasn't among those memories?


That was among my hopes through 2.0, but 3.0 kinda goes completely against this since Kaworu suddenly doesn't show that familiarity anymore and even treats his time with Shinji as a destined first meeting.

Either Kaworu got his own memories erased between 2.0 and 3.0 then, or this Kaworu isn't the same as the one from 2.0, whether through cloning or time travel.


Ehhh...yeah, that is the ponit.....Kaworu is manipulating Shinji under Seele's orders.....
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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby intermediateO » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:28 am

View Original PostJäeger wrote:Ehhh...yeah, that is the ponit.....Kaworu is manipulating Shinji under Seele's orders.....


As someone who is also open to/supports the Manipulator Kaworu angle, I don't really get what it has to do with what I said?

All the stuff that I'm talking about is stuff that Kaworu obviously wouldn't be fed to tell Shinji.
Like the line , "This time, I'll show you true happiness."
Which then magically becomes "I really was born to meet you," in 3.0.
I don't see what the strategic advantage there is to saying that. I think it is a genuine utterence from that Kaworu that is also supposed to show the audience that there is some discontinuity between this Kaworu and the one(s) we saw previously.

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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:24 am

Um.... who said anything about un-corified earth being a result of temporal shenanigans? In AVANT1 of Shin Eva, the Bridge Bunny crew clearly call their system that un-corifies large land areas the "Anti-L System," which is, presumably, a reference to the "L Barrier" that Asuka spoke of at the end of Eva Q. This suggests that the device is acting as a repellent of "L" based materials (like soap repelling dirt), and not a device that travels through time, or causes anything else to travel through time. Like, it's all there in the dialogue that what's happening isn't the result of time travel. In order to assume time travel, you have to assume extra-textual scenarios into the film, which is bordering on fanfic territory if you ask me.

I just don't know what anyone in the movie means by "L" when they speak of "Anti-L" or "L Barrier." Hopefully the film will clarify what's going on.

Guess we just have to wait and see.

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Re: Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

Postby intermediateO » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:54 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I just don't know what anyone in the movie means by "L" when they speak of "Anti-L" or "L Barrier."


So basically, all that other stuff was just an argument of "my fanfiction assumptions are better than yours"?

And nothing of your stuff goes against it being travel manipulation, as long as it would be "anti-L" to you. And yeah, obviously reverting the world to pre-3rd Impact would get rid of all your "L" too then, wouldn't it?

I don't know what to tell you if you see a 14 year old post-apocalyptic city looking shiny and with zero degredation and you don't think that time shenanigans could be going on.


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