Do the Magi have a soul?

[thomson777]

The Magi could have a sole since it is a copy of Naoko Akagi or is it a computer that only thinks it has a sole but, if it thinks then it exists. Is a person's consciousness uploaded still a person? Is the capacity to think what defines us as humans? Or is their something else that defines what is a human when the capacity to think is copyable by a computer?

[Allemann]

It's a semi-organic A. I. whose decision system is based on Naoko's personality. It isn't even sentient, let alone having a soul.

[thomson777]

but if the only thing that proves you're existence is you're thoughts and it dose think than doesn't it exist? It dose have it's own thoughts because it is an AI, and didn't blow up when asked.

[KnightmareX13]

but if the only thing that proves you're existence is you're thoughts and it dose think than doesn't it exist? It dose have it's own thoughts because it is an AI, and didn't blow up when asked.

Not really it was programed to think like Naoko. The self destruct mechanism is controlled by the magi to prevent an unnecessary destruction of the base, I guess it was decided that it would be safer is the three magi debated whether to detonate rather than have a human who could be emotionally compromised (99% of Nerv is) blow up the base or not blow up the base when needed. While on the other hand the Magi have no known emotions to cloud it's reasoning.

[Allemann]

but if the only thing that proves you're existence is you're thoughts and it dose think than doesn't it exist?

From where did you get that consciousness is a condition for existence? Existence is a more general property possessed by thinking and nonthinking beings.

It dose have it's own thoughts because it is an AI, and didn't blow up when asked.

An A.I. is a system which displays behavior we humans interpret as intelligent, but this appearance of intelligence doesn't imply this system is actually conscious and aware of itself. Whether a conscious "strong" A.I. will be made is an open and controversial question.

To have a stance toward an A.I as if it's intelligent and understand our commands is an useful strategy: this is how most people behave towards highly complex machinery like chess programs. But such computers are manipulating symbols on a syntactical level. They don't literally understand our commands and inputs. They lack the semantic component which living organism have. John Searle's Chinese Room illustrates this clearly.

[thomson777]

Not really it was programed to think like Naoko. The self destruct mechanism is controlled by the magi to prevent an unnecessary destruction of the base, I guess it was decided that it would be safer is the three magi debated whether to detonate rather than have a human who could be emotionally compromised (99% of Nerv is) blow up the base or not blow up the base when needed. While on the other hand the Magi have no known emotions to cloud it's reasoning.

Fine the part programed to think like Naoko could exist with a soul because it is the only part that isn't equal to a calculator. besides if you were to put that part into a black box with the actual Naoko you would not be able to tell the difference between them when you talk to them though the box.
That is why artificial intelligence must be as smart as our intelligence otherwise it isn't actual intelligence.

[SenorSquiid]

No, because its primary function in the show is to be a technobabble generator to give Maya and Ritsuko some more lines once in a while, but it's a woman so it'll still stab it's own daughter in the back.

[thomson777]

No, because its primary function in the show is to be a technobabble generator to give Maya and Ritsuko some more lines once in a while, but it's a woman so it'll still stab it's own daughter in the back.

well when you refer to it as a piece of fiction of course it has no sole.

[thewayneiac]

Not really it was programed to think like Naoko. The self destruct mechanism is controlled by the magi to prevent an unnecessary destruction of the base, I guess it was decided that it would be safer is the three magi debated whether to detonate rather than have a human who could be emotionally compromised (99% of Nerv is) blow up the base or not blow up the base when needed. While on the other hand the Magi have no known emotions to cloud it's reasoning.

I don't totally agree with this reasoning for two reasons.

1. Ritsuko seems to think that there's enough Naoko in the Magi to stop the self destruct for personal reasons. "You've chosen your man over me?!"

2. In Ep. 24 Hyuga is prepared to self destruct Nerv H.Q. if Kaworu defeats Shinji. There is no indication that he would have to get the Magi to agree with the destruct order.

However, it is correct that there is no soul in the Magi. The process through which the Magi were given Naoko's personality is probably the exact same as the technology used to give the dummy System Rei's personality. This is different from the technology that moves souls from mothers into Evas, or from Rei 2 to Rei 3. The Dummy System doesn't have Rei's soul, just her personality. The Magi don't have Naoko's soul, just her personality.

[Xard]

The Dummy System doesn't have Rei's soul, just her personality. The Magi don't have Naoko's soul, just her personality.

This.

[The Eva Monkey]

The Magi don't have Naoko's soul, just her personality.

THIS

[CyberXIII]

Of course the Magi don't have soles. They're brains.

They don't have souls either. they're just hyper-powerful supercomputers modeled after different aspects of Naoko's mind and personality.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Of course the Magi don't have soles. They're brains.

I was going to go with "They can't have a sole, because there's three of them".

[thomson777]

Darn this didn't get the responses I wanted. I have made a wrong assumption. At least I'm not alone.

Of course the Magi don't have soles. They're brains.

They don't have souls either. they're just hyper-powerful supercomputers modeled after different aspects of Naoko's mind and personality.

this was they way they were treated through the entirety of the story arc true, but calling it an AI then is illogical because it isn't intelligent. The pieces that would make an intellect are split into those three computes and are only connected on one level leaving the possible intellect bound to it's current programing. I assumed that it was an AI because that what it may have been referred to in Evangelion (either during it's introduction or during the project to create it), or that when Naoko uploaded her personality she did so by mapping how every part of the human brain works, then mimicking the brains function in a computer when in actuality she had created complex programs that mimic her in three central areas of her life. As for those brains inside the Magi it could indicate that the magi commuters also function as a life support system to artificially extend the life of intelligence that brain contains, at least until the fact that Ritsuko stabs those probes into the exposed brain leaving the only conclusion that those brains are merely another circuit on the bored.

[AuraTwilight]

The MAGI are plenty intelligent, they're just not SENTIENT. They are what's called a Weak AI, an artificial intelligence that does not possess self-awareness or consciousness. Weak AI already exist in real life.

And yea, it's basically a Dummy Plug of Naoko.

[Sanada Yukimura]

Calm down,let's follow Fred Kreuger 's philosophy :let's go from parts.

The Magi could have a sole since it is a copy of Naoko Akagi or is it a computer that only thinks it has a sole but, if it thinks then it exists.

man...are u a fervorous cartasian? René Descartes said the famous "I think therefore I am" long time ago however philosophy nowadays refutes that.There 's a book that translating the title to english( i've read in portuguese) maybe is "The error/mistake of Descartes".It's more related to Psychology and Neuroscience though.

Is a person's consciousness uploaded still a person?

So...according to this book no.Because one's mind isn't independent of the body ,the opposite of conclusion of Descartes.They are interligated and it seems "soul"is just a human invention or a misinterpretation.

Is the capacity to think what defines us as humans?

I think no....Don't u know Avatar?And it seems they think more about nature than us.

Or is their something else that defines what is a human when the capacity to think is copyable by a computer?

A lots of people have already said,if a thing copies human behavior does not mean they are truly human a priori.Or maybe I should let my dog at day-care before travelling.

[AuraTwilight]

Rene Descartes isn't relevant since souls exist in the Evaverse. Next.

[Xard]

man...are u a fervorous cartasian? René Descartes said the famous "I think therefore I am" long time ago however philosophy nowadays refutes that.There 's a book that translating the title to english( i've read in portuguese) maybe is "The error/mistake of Descartes".It's more related to Psychology and Neuroscience though.

lolwut, didn't expect to see Damasio on EGF.

He's cool dude and one of the most notable neuroscientists around in my opinion. Especially valuable person to study when it comes to psychology these days.

As far as philosophy goes however he is pretty much meritless. That book isn't philosophy in the first place and if I remember rigthly he commits couple of sadly common misunderstandings of Cartesianism that seem to plague medical field in particular.

That said that book has absolutely no bearing to topic at hand. If Anno says souls in evaverse are marshmallow then they are marshmallow.

I also think Aura's recent comment on weak AI was logical thread ender

[Allemann]

The existence of souls makes strong A.I. impossible in the Evaverse.

[Sanada Yukimura]

Rene Descartes isn't relevant since souls exist in the Evaverse. Next.

No wait...Rene Descartes has never denied the existence of souls.And I said bullshit before because Damasio hasn't said the existence of souls is a lie too.Mind and soul is a bit different,I've mistaken when I said "souls are inventions" there's nothing to prove the opposite.

Xard,do you study Psychology or Philoshophy?
I didn't know this guy Damasio was so famous...I've taken this book a year ago in the library of my university while I was looking around in the shelf of books.I was impressed with the book's tittle =3

I'm no philosopher and no psychologist (inspite of reading sometimes this subjects)but explain us what are the misunderstandings that Damasio takes of Cartesianism?Because if Damasio have rly done mistakes,so Anno's premise of existence of soul isn't illogical,and thus Eva's content/ideas can be valid to human reality yet.