Fanservice in Evangelion: Good or Bad?

[Sachi]

I don't want to see something so great descend to the level of something so far from great, ever, for any reason.

Once again, you're implying that fanservice detracts from the show. Does it really ruin Evangelion for you?

As I said before, Evangelion is just a show; don't hold it to the highest expectations.

For something to be truly unique, you must consider every aspect of every part of it. If you were take take any characteristic away, change or alter it in any way imaginable, you are changing what makes it unique, and thus ruining it.

EDIT: In my opinion, I like fanservice. Does that mean I'm a simple minded ecchi-tard?

[NemZ]

Does it really ruin Evangelion for you?

I certainly wouldn't say ruins, no, but it doesn't help.

[Sachi]

I certainly wouldn't say ruins, no, but it doesn't help.

Which I put it to you may be taken to mean it needs help.

Evangelion already makes a statement. If someone is deterred from that statement by fanservice, it's their fault.

For a lot of people, it's the fanservice that draws them to Eva. I found a lot of it funny, especially the awkward situations Shinji was often put in, and it kept me watching until the great moments came (episode 16 is what really pulled me in).

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I found a lot of it funny, especially the awkward situations Shinji was often put in, and it kept me watching until the great moments came (episode 16 is what really pulled me in).

Does that mean that if the fanservice wasn't there, you wouldn't have kept going until the great parts?

That's the point I've been trying to make. Like I said, I haven't seen 2.22 yet. So I'm not gonna start forming opinions about its fanservice. But if that's all most of the show has going for it, then I question the quality of the show itself.

[Sachi]

That's the point I've been trying to make. Like I said, I haven't seen 2.22 yet. So I'm not gonna start forming opinions about its fanservice. But if that's all most of the show has going for it, then I question the quality of the show itself.

You shouldn't question it until you've seen it, and you shouldn't judge any show based merely off the amount of fanservice is contains.

Even Summer Wars has fanservice, but it's still an amazing visual art.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

You shouldn't question it until you've seen it, and you shouldn't judge any show based merely off the amount of fanservice is contains.

Even Summer Wars has fanservice, but it's still an amazing visual art.

I'm not judging 2.22, or any other show I haven't seen either. I'm just referring to fanservice in general. Not every show that has fanservice is using it as a gimmick to keep people interested through a show that, otherwise, wouldn't have a lot going for it.

I guess the point isn't the fanservice itself, but rather how it's used in a show. And excluding any show I haven't seen yet, and excluding shows that use it to further the narrative (original NGE, Ghost in the Shell, ect.) most fanservice I've seen was a cheap way to attract a crowd without needing to put any effort into script or character development.

Not all. Just most.

[Sachi]

I guess the point isn't the fanservice itself, but rather how it's used in a show.

Bingo. This same concept applies to anything and everything in art, literature, music, etc.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I would agree. But ss for my art in particular (videos, short films, ect.), I would have to out my foot down and say no sexualized fanservice. Maybe I'm just squeamish or whatever. I can see and respect when it's done wall in other works (especially in Psycho, NGE, and GITS, although I didn't feel the nudity in GITS was sexual in the slightest), but I would just feel weird having to ask someone to be cool as a whole film crew watched while I spent time lighting her butt just right and stuck a camera up her skirt for everyone watching the on-set HD monitors to see. Or anything else like it, for that matter. Especially if it's an NGE-esque situation and the character would be a minor. Yes, I've heard of older stand-in models. But still, I'm not doing that.

And considering the subject that one of my short films touched upon (underage sex, abortion, ect.), it was an interesting experience trying to convey everything without showing any sexualized fanservice.

[NemZ]

Which I put it to you may be taken to mean it needs help.

The original series? No.

Rebuild (which all of my negative comments have directed towards)? Yes.

[Mr. Tines]

Because too much of any good thing can become old/bad really fast.

Like the panty shots in Strike Witches pretty much achieve the level of running gag after the first 10 minutes have desensitized you.

jiggly lady-parts in NGE.

That is sort of a trademark move. Not having that would be unusual.

At least we aren't getting the annoying recent habit of some censoring sigil -- or maybe just steam -- which is just there to be removed on the DVD release or maybe satellite channel broadcast.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Masterpieces are rarely perfect.

Fixed.

[psychosis090]

Nope.

As with JFaulkner before him, I gotta agree with 0x2eleven. For the most part, it's just underage bums and titties for their own sake, and is an insult to the cognitive and emotional intelligence of any discerning adult anywhere. There. I effing said it. That's how strongly I feel about it.

All of this postmodern garbage about 'pointless' fanservice serving as a 'subtle' audience bait and switch tactic for the dark and tragic second half of the show displays a level of contempt for the audience that I have honestly never seen before. So, most of your audience is a bunch of emotionally-stunted shut-ins? Reel em' in with a bunch of adolescent power fantasies and underage nookie, and then crush their petty little souls by mentally destroying their beloved fictional idols!

"Okay, guys! While they're reeling from all that sick and disturbing shit we just unleashed on them, we'll sell a whole bunch of related merchandise, so they'll never have to let go of their sad, unhealthy attachment to the characters and world we've created! So what if it's totally against the message the show was preaching? It's IRONIC!!! All the cool kids are doin' it!! WE GONNA BE RICH, BITCHES!!!"

So yeah. Just not on.

Hell, if I'm going to get banned, I might as well go out with a bang. This has been cookin' for a while now.

[Oz]

So, most of your audience is a bunch of emotionally-stunted shut-ins?

This is Japan we are talking about. The otaku culture is just like that.

[ZapX]

psychosis - You know, you're more than welcome to whatever opinion you want. No one's going to ban you for your opinion. You'd have to do a lot more than that to get banned. You could maybe cut it back a little, sure, but... I mean, did you want to get banned or something?

[Eva Yojimbo]

For the most part, it's just underage bums and titties for their own sake, and is an insult to the cognitive and emotional intelligence of any discerning adult anywhere. There. I effing said it. That's how strongly I feel about it.

Like Zap said, you're certainly welcome to have an opinion, but how about presenting it in an intelligent way with an actual argument that addresses some of the points like myself and others have made throughout this thread in argument FOR the fanservice, eh? You think bait-and-switching via fanservice shows contempt for the audience? You have no idea what contempt for an audience is... Your (and Faulkner's) whole merchandising argument would carry a lot more weight if Anno was actually responsible for it.

The problem I have with the anti-youth-sex-and-nudity fanservice is that most of its arguments apply to the non-youth-sex-and-nudity forms of fanservice like, say, the mechas themselves. You and JF don't seem to have a problem with that, and yet, given that NGE is a Sci-fi series most ostensibly, it's THAT element that sucks in the Otaku shut-ins a priori. The sexual fanservice may be icing on the cake, but it's hardly a major, time consuming focus. I might be more sympathetic to your perspective if NGE never actually DID anything with underage sexuality, but by the end it certainly assimilates it into its giant mass of omni-consuming themes and it becomes an essential aspect. If nothing else the fanservice serves as foreshadowing to this in a lighter mode.

[oOoOoOo]

... underage bums and titties ... discerning adult ... underage nookie ...

First, we're talking 2D characters. The middle-aged women look the same as the highschoolers.

Second, human beings become adults when they reach puberty. Having taught in classrooms with real highschool students, I will tell you that you could dress them up a bit different and sit them in a college lecture and nobody would blink.

Third, if you knew any adults you would know that the difference between a child and an adult is that an adult can afford more toys. Only children imagine there is a difference between the two groups.

Four, Australia.

The legal/emotional angle is a whole different story.

So, most of your audience is a bunch of emotionally-stunted shut-ins?

For some reason I don't think the show was intended for the well-adjusted.

[psychosis090]

This is Japan we are talking about. The otaku culture is just like that.

Yeah. It was a rhetorical question. I'm aware that Anno deliberately set the show up as an attack on the otaku subculture. I was just doing a strawman mockup of the possible thought processes the show's creators might have had. With the all evidence on offer, hell, it might as well be true!

Though really, I'm of the opinion that greed, poor decision making, complacency and a degree of cynicism on Anno's part are mostly to blame for the sexual fanservice evident in the show and the new movies (moreso in the those). Don't always assume malice where plain old incompetency is to blame, and whatnot.

The reason that I didn't explicitly refer to which type of fanservice we were talking about was because I just assumed we all knew what we were referring to.

In regards to non-sexual fanservice, I'm all for it. Just as long as it doesn't reach catastrophic levels of audience pandering, where it basically sacrifices good writing just for a few fleeting instances of recognition. Notable examples of this include Metal Gear Solid 4 and every single contributor on ThatGuyWithTheGlasses.com (have you seen their anniversary specials? Fuck. Well, back to books I guess).

[Sachi]

Second, human beings become adults when they reach puberty. Having taught in classrooms with real highschool students, I will tell you that you could dress them up a bit different and sit them in a college lecture and nobody would blink.

THIS. In fact, I AM a high school student currently enrolled in college classes, and when I look around the room I can't tell which others are in high school as well. Of course, there are some that are obviously out of high school.

Though really, I'm of the opinion that greed, poor decision making, complacency and a degree of cynicism on Anno's part are mostly to blame for the sexual fanservice evident in the show and the new movies (moreso in the those). Don't always assume malice where plain old incompetency is to blame, and whatnot.

So, you're saying that Anno's use of fanservice is of a result of bad writing, despite the fact that he wrote most of the good stuff in Evangelion? Once again, I think people are putting Evangelion on a pedestal that is too high and judging it too harshly because of it. Sure, the show could have been so much better artistically had it not played around with fanservice, but consider the other aspects of the show that would be detracted from.

[Halicat]

Second, human beings become adults when they reach puberty. Having taught in classrooms with real highschool students, I will tell you that you could dress them up a bit different and sit them in a college lecture and nobody would blink.

That may be so biologically, but it does not necessarily make it right and that's simply where a lot of opposition to fan service comes in: morals. Not to mention different cultures. Some places, 12 year olds are legal adults and they can act like it, other places, it's 21, the difference is usually people of these age brackets had a different upbringing and usually therefore, different attitudes and behaviours toward sex and nudity. Our biology does not have to dictate our behaviours; if it did, then what's the problem with killing and raping?

Third, if you knew any adults you would know that the difference between a child and an adult is that an adult can afford more toys. Only children imagine there is a difference between the two groups.

Doubt it, VERY much. I was on a completely different level of cognitive and emotional stability when I was 8, 12,15 and 20 for example. Periods had me terrified and upset when I was 12, hardly what I call someone capable of dealing with sex, maybe some 12 year olds can deal, but not all or most, that's why consent laws exist and why a lot of people get angry when others feel that they can deviate those laws to satisfy themselves. Not to mention, anytime I read the accounts of child sex abuse victims, they thought about things in a VERY different way than what an adult would do. It took them many years of growing and maturation to realise what certain behaviours were and what they meant. If that isn't a clear difference between a child and an adult, I don't know what is.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

The legal/emotional angle is a whole different story.

I think part of it also has to do with mental maturity based on cultural practices. If I remember my homework right, some of the cultures of both today and in the past married kids off at around 14/approximately around the middle to latter stages of puberty. But the culture raised the kids so that by the time they reached 14 or so, the kids could physically and mentally handle the responsibilities of childbearing and running a household.

That's something we don't have in the "modern" culture. We still have 35-year-old kids running around. A lot of them less responsible for the job of parenting or other sexual responsibilities than the 14-year-old families of olden days.

So biologically, "underage" sex kinda makes sense. Mentally in the "modern" culture, it can turn into an emotional and legal train-wreck.