Rei, Lilith, and Quantum Mechanics

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Shin-seiki [ANF]
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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:05 pm

This subject came up in this thread a while back. The reference is, of course, to this scene in ep23. The word 'strangeness' is a reference to a certain kind of sub-atomic particle, and 'top' and 'bottom' are among the 'flavors' that quarks come in.
Now, you may be saying to youself "Well, this all very interesting, but what does it have to do with anything? What is the connection to Rei?" First off, I think one should consider that it is unlikely that Anno would leave something that is, I think, rather obviously intended to be taken as a 'clue', and have it not mean something. Remember what Anno said: "Evangelion is like a puzzle, really..." These words on the wall of the room where Rei was born are surely a piece of the puzzle; we just have to figure out how and where it fits into the big picture.
What I take from this is that some connection is being implied between Rei and sub-atomic physics, i.e. quantum mechanics. Allow me to just leave it at that for the time being, because I would like to point out that this rather cryptic clue in ep23 does not stand alone; there happens to be another big, fat, highly relevant clue that has been staring us all in the face all along:

Image

There are two images or diagrams in this pic from ep08 of Gendo's office (Here's another pic, from ep14). I think that most of us recognize the image on the ceiling as the Sephiroth, but have you ever wondered what the hell that is on the floor, that looks like the tracks of a skater on an ice rink? To tell the truth, the first time I laid eyes on it, I thought that it looked like an image of the tracks of sub-atomic particles in a bubble chamber. If you look at these images of sub-atomic interactions here, here, and especially here, I think you can see the resemblance.
Here are some more:

Image

Image

and (my favorite) this one. (This one is way too big (1.2 MB) to imbed, but is a really cool image; I made it the wallpaper on my computer's desktop.)
So, then, what does it mean, that Gendo has what appears to be a bubble chamber image engraved on the floor of his office? I think that the idea is that the images on the ceiling and floor represent two elements of the Human Instrumentality Project. We all know what the Sephiroth is: it is a 'map' of the Path to Heaven, or of becoming one with God. As for the other, think of it this way: what is literally beneath Gendo's feet? Why, the Geo-Front, i.e. the Black Moon, or Liilths Egg! Why would the Black Moon be depicted, metaphorically, as a realm of sub-atomic interactions? I think that it is worth noting that symbolism in Evangelion has a way of playing out in a very literal fashion. Thus, when Third Impact actually gets underway, we see that the 'metaphor' of the Sephiroth overhead turns out to be 'for real':

Image

Meanwhile, at the same time, deep down in the Geo-Front, which has, at its center, like the nucleus of an atom, one of the Sources of Life, 'fusion' with the other S.O.L. is taking place:

Image

Image

Image

So, how does the idea of Quantum Mechanics relate to all this? Well, first off, I should make clear that I am no expert on the subject, but I think that if you look into it, you'll see that there is some relevance. The main thing that stands out about the way sub-atomic particles interact, is that the normal rules of what we think of as reality, simply do not apply at the sub-atomic level. All sorts of weird stuff happens, for example:
Under certain circumstances, it is possible for a single particle, such as an electron, to simultaneously exist in two places at once. I don't mean one electron becomes two, I mean one electron is in two places at once; there's no other way to put it. The relevence of this principle to Rei should be obvious: her soul is in her, and, at the same time, is in Unit 00, for one thing.
Also, in quantum mechanics, the distinction between cause and effect can be a bit ambiguous; there are situations where the effect seems to precede the cause. In the case of Rei, this might explain why we see an apparition of Rei appear before Misato and Ritsuko as they die, even though Rei herself hasn't actually returned to Lilith at that point.
If I knew more about quantum mechanics, I suppose I could come up with other examples. In any case, I think that Anno has planted the idea that Rei and Lilith's soul, and perhaps, by extention, all souls, since all (Lilim) souls are derived from Lilith, behave according to the rules of quantum mechanics, as a way of 'explaining' a lot of otherwise 'impossible' paradoxical stuff that happens in NGE...

Originally posted on: 18-Aug-2003, 15:43 GMT

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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:05 pm

Thats a very interisting Theroy. I'll have to resreach more into it. There are problely a lot more pieces of the puzzle that people have missed in Evangelion. This one does seem to fit, good job.

Originally posted on: 18-Aug-2003, 15:52 GMT

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Postby Siendra [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:05 pm

That was extremly well thought out and very interesting.

Originally posted on: 18-Aug-2003, 16:19 GMT

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Postby Ikari_Shinji [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:09 pm

VERY interesting indeed...

Originally posted on: 18-Aug-2003, 16:23 GMT

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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:09 pm

Wow Shin-seiki, very impresive. I have never heard this theory before. At lest not as it relates to Quantum Mechanics.

What I like best is the soul in Rei and Unit-01, that would explan away the holes in that theory.

Originally posted on: 18-Aug-2003, 16:50 GMT

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:09 pm

I think I saw another scene relating to this in End of Eva. It during third impact I think right after the geofront enter the F-layer. Anyway the camera (well the idea of a camera) looks into space and you something similar to what you've shown in the color of a Pattern red AT field and immediatley the camera pans down to the earth. It's really only 5-6 frames I'll check cause I might have gotten it's location wrong

Originally posted on: 18-Aug-2003, 17:24 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:09 pm

Washu-chan wrote:I think I saw another scene relating to this in End of Eva. It during third impact I think right after the geofront enter the F-layer.



I assume you are referring to this?

Image

I hadn't noticed that before your post prompted me to go look for it... Thanks, Washu-chan! Now... What on Earth is it!

Also, kudos for the original post, Shin-seiki. That answers the question of how Lilith's soul is in two places at once... One less thing to torment my soul.

Originally posted on: 19-Aug-2003, 08:53 GMT

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Postby Siendra [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:09 pm

I hadnt noticed that either...that's pretty odd for me...I normally notice almost everything.

Originally posted on: 18-Aug-2003, 23:19 GMT

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Postby GandalfsWhisper [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:09 pm

wow, that was really well written and well thought out. Exellent post Shin-seiki.

I guess I'm going to rewatch EoE (mabey just 26') frame by frame tonight to look for things I've missed.

Originally posted on: 19-Aug-2003, 00:21 GMT

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Postby saiyajin prince [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:10 pm

Great job, everything seem to make a lot of sense but one thing that struck me...

The main thing that stands out about the way sub-atomic particles interact, is that the normal rules of what we think of as reality, simply do not apply at the sub-atomic level. All sorts of weird stuff happens, for example: Under certain circumstances, it is possible for a single particle, such as an electron, to simutaneously exist in two places at once. I don't mean one electron becomes two, I mean one electron is in two places at once; there's no other way to put it. The relevence of this principle to Rei should be obvious: her soul is in her, and, at the same time, is in Unit 00, for one thing.



I don't see how it is possible for an electron or any other particle to do that. It's been two years since I studied physics so I'm really rusty but won't that need/emmit very very large amounts of energy...and also if an electron is able to be in two places at the same, wouldn't that cause the atomic number to change? I've heard of experiments never by itself. You have any more info about this?

Anyways, as strange as it sounds, I know see connections between quantum physics and Eva..thanks!Image

Originally posted on: 19-Aug-2003, 01:13 GMT

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:10 pm

Reichu wrote:I assume you are referring to this?

Image

I hadn't noticed that before your post prompted me to go look for it... Thanks, Washu-chan! Now... What on Earth is it!

Also, kudos for the original post, Shin-seiki. That answers the question of how Lilith's soul is in two places at once... One less thing to torment my soul.



Yeh thats it!!

Thanks and thats a good theory shin-seiki

Originally posted on: 19-Aug-2003, 01:47 GMT

Shin-seiki [ANF]
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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:10 pm

Reichu wrote:I assume you are referring to this?

Image

I hadn't noticed that before your post prompted me to go look for it... Thanks, Washu-chan! Now... What on Earth is it!

Also, kudos for the original post, Shin-seiki. That answers the question of how Lilith's soul is in two places at once... One less thing to torment my soul.

I tried to capture that image, but it goes by too fast; I just couldn't get it to pause at that point. Logically, it has to be Unit 01 and the Series EVAs, tho what that figure is supposed to represent is beyond me.

edit: Tho the two nested circles kinda look like the orbits of electrons around a nucleus... Image

Originally posted on: 19-Aug-2003, 01:59 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:10 pm

GandalfsWhisper wrote:I guess I'm going to rewatch EoE (mabey just 26') frame by frame tonight to look for things I've missed.



Have fun during the parts where Anno flashes the entire series before your eyes... Oh, and pay special attention during the Evil Subliminal Flash-Fest towards the end of "Komm, susser Tod" -- I found one especially disturbing image hidden in there... Image I'll post a screen cap of it on demand.

Originally posted on: 19-Aug-2003, 03:08 GMT

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Postby MDWigs [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:10 pm

I love this topic Image

Anno is a physics otaku, actually he is an all round science otaku. He puts well researched, accurate scientific details in a lot of his shows. For those of you who have seen Gunbuster, you will see where he deals with relativity and time dilation. He also talks about Super String Theory, which pops up again in Eva...

This thread got me all nostalgic, so I went digging back through the archives of the Japan.anime.evangelion newsgroup and found this thread from March of 2000 where we discuss the Sea of Dirac and Super String Theory and their further implications on the Eva Universe. You can find the discussion in This Thread.

I also dug up some other stuff from a later thread on the same topic, dealing with Klien Space and more on Super String Theory.

Firstly there really is no relationship between string theory and
the real world. It appears to be a theory of quantum gravity,
I just don't think it applies to "our" universe Image

The "goal" of Super String Theory is to "unify" the four fundamental
forces: Gravity, the Electromagnetic force, the Strong force and the
Weak force.

We are used to thinking of fundamental particles (like electrons) as
point-like 0-dimensional objects. A generalisation of this is fundamental
strings which are1-dimensional objects. They have no thickness but
do have a length, typically 10^(-33) cm. This is very small compared
to the length scales that we can reasonably measure, so these strings
are so small that they practically look like point particles.

Now these strings have certain vibrational modes which can be
characterised by various quantum numbers such as mass, spin, etc.
The basic idea is that each mode carries a set of quantum numbers
that correspond to a distinct type of fundamental particle. This is the
ultimate unification: all the fundamental particles we know can be
described by one object, a string.

Now this hasn't been proven, its just a theory, it does seem right
when you look at it, it really can't be shown to be right.

Ok, now Supersymmetry, is a theory which unifies bosons and
fermions. Every known particle would be paired with a "superpartner"
of the opposite type(boson vs. fermions). The major goal of the
newest high energy accelerators is to discover these superpartners
and to find evidence for supersymmetry. It is an essential ingredient in
realistic string theory models, hence the "super" in "superstring".

What this all means.... hmmm...

I guess the "the movement dimensions of the strings" means the
vibrational modes... Um... Image I haven't done "heaps" of study on
string theory, just general stuff...

It seems that in its final form string theory will be able to provide
answers to answer questions like: Where do the four forces that
we see come from? Why do we see the various types of particles
that we do? Why do particles have the masses and charges that
we see? Why do we live in 4 spacetime dimensions? What is the
nature of spacetime and gravity? Stuff like that Image Which would help
to explain what is happening within the universe, ie, a universe in
which the string theory holds true.

> I hope that could be a "SF rational explanation"...

HAHA well... Image

I hope I have explained string theory well enough, basically it
allows us to know why things are related, why things are. How this
is related to Eva, well if Ritsuko is using string theory then that means
basically they she can explain a lot of stuff about the "other universe"
that we can't do now about our own, so therefore she could get a
lot more info about it and make more informed choices about what
it is. Ritsuko and Co. didn't seem to question how Unit-01 got to
the "Shadow" they were more interested in the fact that it was moving
when it shouldn't have been able to Image I think that the info the a proven
string theory would give probably would explain how Unit-01 got from
A to B, but I don't know that much physics so... Image

-------------

Ok so how is all that related to Moebius strips Klein bottles? (I was
actually going to buy a glass Klien bottle the other day, they look
so cool, however it was much to expensive ^^)

Well the Klein bottles or rather the Kaluza-Klein bottle is the basis
of modern string theory. Which links into hyperspace and all this
really cool stuff.

So as to being "trapped" in Klein space. Well just before Ritsuko
mentions is Maya says "No good. His ego border is in a fixed loop."
A Moebius loop perhaps? Without a beginning or an end?



So how is all this relevant? Well it just goes further to show that Anno did put somewhat meaningful physics into his show, and that there is probably a deeper significance there (he was being clever as always ^^)

Of course at a quantum level (and indeed thus at every level to some degree) everything is subject to Hinesburg's Uncertainty principle. The quantum world is probabilistic in nature; you talk about the percentage chance of a quantum entity being in a certain place at a certain time. The reason for this is becuase at this level, the mere act of observing an electron for example, can alter the state of that electron. You can't know absolutely both the position or the momentum of any quantum entity. So there is uncertainty in everything, an inherent randomness in everything. I think Anno would like this idea.

Originally posted on: 19-Aug-2003, 03:16 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:10 pm

I'm probably going to start paying more attention to this strange "physics" stuff than I was before... Damn you, Anno!! Image

MDWigs, I tried reading through those links you posted but my brain threatened to explode. Quick question: Did you guys ever figure out exactly HOW Shogouki escaped out of Leliel's shadow?

Originally posted on: 19-Aug-2003, 03:35 GMT

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Postby MDWigs [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:10 pm

I'm reading back over it all now, and I was a bit all over the place back then. I've got a lot more physics since then, and though most of what I said then still holds, it can be explanded on a lot more (and explained much better).

As for how Eva-01 escaped, well the main question we were trying to answer is how it got from point A (ie the "shadow" on the ground) to point B (the "shadow" in the air). To actually break out of it I've always just assumed that Yui took over and produced enough force to interfere with the imaginary circuit of the Angel (ie do what Ritsuko and Co were planning, but from the inside). Of course I haven't really thought about it in depth for a while now, so I'll give it some more thought.

Originally posted on: 19-Aug-2003, 04:08 GMT

tv33 [ANF]
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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:10 pm

Reichu wrote:I found one especially disturbing image hidden in there... Image I'll post a screen cap of it on demand.



I want to see! Image

I never knew that Anno was a physics and science buff. I thought he went to a film collage, so I wonder where he learned all of this. Perhaps he taught it to himself?

Originally posted on: 19-Aug-2003, 14:53 GMT

Shin-seiki [ANF]
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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:11 pm

tv33 wrote:I want to see! Image

I never knew that Anno was a physics and science buff. I thought he went to a film collage, so I wonder where he learned all of this. Perhaps he taught it to himself?

If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's really gross! :dead:

Originally posted on: 19-Aug-2003, 14:59 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:11 pm

tv33 wrote:I want to see! Image



Don't say I didn't warn ya...

::maniacal laughter::

Originally posted on: 19-Aug-2003, 17:13 GMT

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Postby yukito_kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:18 pm

Reichu wrote:Don't say I didn't warn ya...

::maniacal laughter::


What's that?There are two spread legs and something I can't tell what,do you know?

Originally posted on: 19-Aug-2003, 18:37 GMT


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