Who "wins" in EoE?

[pen^2]

One question that has been bugging me for a long time is just who "wins" in the End of Evangelion?

When Shinji and Unit 01 go on the sky trip, SEELE sound satisfied that things have gone according to their plan (The Eva series have been our faithful servants... Unit 01 is marked with the holy stigmata... let the sacrament begin, etc) - and since Rei rejects Gendo when he asks her to take him to Yui's side once more, does that mean that his scenario has failed and SEELE has succeeded?

In the end, it's up to Shinji to decide, and he rejects Instrumentality, so no one really seems to 'win' - did Gendo/SEELE just assume Shinji would let Instrumentality happen without any resistance?

I hope this makes sense - the question is: whose scenario is being played out up to when Shinji rejects Instrumentality and why is the possibility of Shinji rejecting Instrumentality not taken into account?

[The Eva Monkey]

I don't think there is a winner or a loser.

If anything, I think everyone loses.

[the_seventh_child]

One question that has been bugging me for a long time is just who "wins" in the End of Evangelion?

Pen Pen. Or Gainax.

I hope this makes sense - the question is: whose scenario is being played out up to when Shinji rejects Instrumentality and why is the possibility of Shinji rejecting Instrumentality not taken into account?

I think Gendo's scenario and Seele's had some differences. Gendo intended to use Rei and Seele the Eva series. But i think it's no one's scenario since Rei was hyper-active and decided to act on her own. But better let Reichu or Shin-seiki explain.

[Shin-seiki]

The actual 3I we see is different from both SEELE and Gendo's scenarios (SEELE's = MP Evas + Eva 01; Gendo's = "Forbidden union of Adam and Lilith" with him (Gendo) included in the merger, and thus able to control the process). SEELE didn't seem to anticipate that the Lance would come down from the Moon and merge with Eva 01, and Gendo certainly didn't anticipate that Rei would betray him and leave him behind. So we end up a scenario wherein the only wills that are 'in play' (i.e. able to influence the outcome) are those of Rei, Kaworu, Yui, and preeminently, Shinji, since the others seem to want to put it all in his hands. Thus, as Instrumentality begins, Rei asks him "What do you wish for?" Unfortunately, within Instrumentality, Shinji gets only contempt and rejection from Asuka, and what he ends up wishing for ("Nobody cares about me, so everyone should just die!") pretty much equates with what SEELE was after all along (thus Keel goes sploosh thinking everything has turned out just peachy). One can't help but wonder if Yui anticipated that Shinji would make such a mess of things. Anyway, eventually Rei and Kaworu give Shinji a do-over, and this time he chooses life, and reality. At the end, we see Shinji and Asuka back in a wrecked world, but with assurances from Rei and Yui that everyone can come back, if they have the will to do so.

[chee]

On "moral" grounds, I guess Shinji won after the fact.

The ending is a lot like "Akira" There are no real "winners", just survivors of man's arrogance.

[ZeroFive1]

I think in the end, everybody gets what they wanted.

[Szmitten]

I think in the end, everybody gets what they wanted.

Well, except Aoba.

[CitizenGeek]

The plan may not have gone exactly to SEELE's plans, but it seems they came closet to achieving their goal, right?

[Shin-seiki]

The plan may not have gone exactly to SEELE's plans, but it seems they came closet to achieving their goal, right?

Well, except for the part about Shinji rejecting Instrumentality, and consequently everyone getting their AT Fields (and thus, their individuality) back...

I'd say Yui won, in terms of the big picture: SEELE's plan was ultimately defeated, and she then went on with her "sail out into the galaxy" plan, that she apparently had anticipated from the beginning (see her conversation with Fuyutsuki by the lake)

[DatDude]

Some how I dont think Shinji being in control was in ANY-FUCKING BUDDIES PLANS. Well maybe his momma's but she had no idea the kind of upbringing he'd have.

That being said i'm going to agree with the_seventh_child and say Pen_Pen WINS!

[Mr. Tines]

If anything, I think everyone loses.

My sentiments as well.

Maybe things aren't quite as back to zero as SEELE wanted -- but that only makes things worse as there are still people around to suffer and die.

[DatDude]

If anything, I think everyone loses.

My sentiments as well.

Maybe things aren't quite as back to zero as SEELE wanted -- but that only makes things worse as there are still people around to suffer and die.

We get another chance at life if we have the strength to take it ( imagine yourself with in your own heart yadda yadda ) Thats an ounce of hope at least.

[Lujerker]

Who "wins" in EoE?

Eva 01.... :o

[Sailor Star Dust]

The scenario that occurred in EoE, thus the ones who "won" , was that of Yui, Lilith, and Adam. Since 3rd Impact was going to happen, Pre-Instrumentality might as well be a tempoary thing once Instrumentality itself was rejected, so that way people COULD return, as opposed to the plans of Seele or Gendou which resulted in people not having any freewill because it'd just be Instrumentality; no choice of returning because the AT Fields wouldn't be re-established.
There's also some version of Instrumentality that would happen in terms of the Angels (e.g: 3 thru 17 had they reached Lilith accordingly), but I can't recall what that was. ;
Either way, Yui (as well as Lilith and Adam) were able to at least stop the batshit insane Seele's "seal from being released into the world", so they have that going for them.
And just so you know, the only thing Shinji could decide was humanity's fate: He did NOT turn into a god-figure or anything; although Yui did.


I'd give a link to a site that explains this, only problem is, it's far from finished and not for public viewing. ...Unless you'd want to provide free geek-labor, that is. ;)

[King_Panther13]

zomg shortened quote

I think the angels were after the same thing Seele was....to become some sort of super-being, or rather, the next evolutionary step.

[pen^2]

Shin-seiki, thanks for your explanation - it makes a lot more sense now...

However, it's strange that when Unit 01 breaks out of the NERV pyramid, Shinji seems to be powerless and the Eva looks like it's acting on its own will (rising out of the cage and into the sand/dust storm above)... and then in the end he decides the fate of humanity! It just seems odd that neither Gendo or SEELE factored that possibility in this - for such a carefully orchestrated plan it seemed a huge oversight, especially since both SEELE and Gendo knew the unpredictability of having a live pilot instead of a dummy plug inside the Eva.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Everybody had turned into LCL so there was nothing to "factor", Lilith left the decision of humanity's fate up to Shinji.

Either way, at that point in the film, Seele decided to use Shinji being in there to their advantage (fucking with his mind, among other things): "...Using the ego of Shogoki's Pilot..."

[CorporalChaos]

Who "wins" in EoE?

Why, the answer is quite obvious. Hideaki Anno. He was laughing all the way to the bank.

[Reichu]

However, it's strange that when Unit 01 breaks out of the NERV pyramid, Shinji seems to be powerless and the Eva looks like it's acting on its own will

Considering who the Eva is and her long history of "misbehavior", how is this strange?

I think the angels were after the same thing Seele was....to become some sort of super-being, or rather, the next evolutionary step.

They're already "gods". Aside from becoming "powered-up", where are they supposed to go from there?

Kaji says that their Third Impact involves humanity being wiped out. It's been proposed that an Angel would make contact with a Seed of Life (Adam or Lilith) and use her to create an Anti A.T. Field that would "reset" Earth's biosphere and reformat it into the sort of thing observed at the South Pole. In other words, they'd retake the planet for their race.

I'd give a link to a site that explains this, only problem is, it's far from finished and not for public viewing. ...Unless you'd want to provide free geek-labor, that is.

This here thread's a cue for a T&A page.

I'd say Yui won, in terms of the big picture: SEELE's plan was ultimately defeated, and she then went on with her "sail out into the galaxy" plan, that she apparently had anticipated from the beginning

I still don't get what on Earth that part had to do with Shinji (her supposed reason for doing everything she did).

[pen^2]

Considering who the Eva is and her long history of "misbehavior", how is this strange?

I was under the impression that the Eva became more controlled after it developed the S2 engine but you're probably right, it is acting on its own will, especially since it raises its arm after the bakelite breaks. Which means Yui was the one in control(?)

Why, the answer is quite obvious. Hideaki Anno. He was laughing all the way to the bank.

Profoundly true