The Kaworu Controversy

[Reichu]

The discussion about Kaworu in a Webuild thread eventually went entirely into "NGE Mode" (around here), so I did the best split I could. --Reichu

It's quite possible that his character didn't really get to show through and become three-dimensional because he only got seven minutes of screen time. With more time, we'll see a side of him (or sides) that we've never seen before. Possibly including his palms.

Watch EoE sometime.

The only reason Kaworu is so popular is that he satisfies some sort of moe desire amongst the screaming fangirls. They needed something to fill the void left by Kaji's death.

He does that thematically in many ways. I am a bit of a Kaworu fan, but hardly for the reasons you state above.

Really, he's not that great of a character, he's totally two-dimensional. How much character growth can one person have in, what, seven minutes of screen time?

I think it might be more than that. I'll have to sit down with a stopwatch or something.

For what little there is, Kaworu has captured my fascination far more than his counterpart, Rei, and I think they managed to squeeze an amazing amount into what ended up being such a short screen presence.

Funny how we all see the same thing different ways. </the obvious>

If Anno truly intends to make him a central focus of the first new film, it is simply because he has sold out (which has been apparent for years), and not due to any "artistic vision" he may have.

This is not necessarily true.

I never liked Kaworu anyway. Probobly because they shoved him in and killed him off in the same episode, then tried to pass his relationship with Shinji as "deep and personal." I know this was due to budget problems interfering with the creative process, but the result was a character that I cared little for whom I believed to have little place in the series as a whole.

Although not implemented to the extent that he could have been, Kaworu has the distinguished position of being a counterpart to Rei (ancient Seed trapped in body of Lilim adolescent) -- which acts on various thematic levels -- and allowing Adam, the mother of the "Enemy", to have a multifaceted role within the plot and be more to the audience than a glowing silhouette or a sessile embryo.

if Anno had the money during the TV series, he would have given us a heavy dose of Kawrou right then and there. That WAS his artistic vision, but he simply couldn't afford it at the time.

SAUCE?

[Trigger's Elysium]

Hmm. Well, I can't say I dislike any Evangelion character. I really liked Kaworu. Maybe he was introduced to the show as a plot device, or whatever. I saw a character who was literally the only person who came up out of the blue and said he loved Shinji, and became his friend on a whim when Shinji had no one else to turn to. I can't imagine how good that made Shinji feel, to have a friend just appear out of nowhere. I really respected that.

[TriLink]

if Anno had the money during the TV series, he would have given us a heavy dose of Kawrou right then and there. That WAS his artistic vision, but he simply couldn't afford it at the time.

SAUCE?

LOL...When I typed that I would have bet money that I read something along those lines in the commentaries section of Vol 9 of the Manga. They do mention Kaworu's screen time, but no such reference is made to Anno wanting him to get more. My apologies.

But still, given how important of role he plays, and NGE's well documented budget problems, my gut tells me that we were meant to get MUCH more of him then we eventually got. Just my opinion. No Sauce.

[Trigger's Elysium]

Well, I would have liked him to stay an episodic character, for my reason above.

[The Goose]

Hmm. Well, I can't say I dislike any Evangelion character. I really liked Kaworu. Maybe he was introduced to the show as a plot device, or whatever. I saw a character who was literally the only person who came up out of the blue and said he loved Shinji, and became his friend on a whim when Shinji had no one else to turn to. I can't imagine how good that made Shinji feel, to have a friend just appear out of nowhere. I really respected that.

Until he turned on Shinji and made him spiral into wanting 3I. Thanks Kaworu!

Kaworu, to me, falls into a certain patch of characters in Eva. He stands among with Kaji and Yui as characters who aren't really loved for themselves, but are cared because of there connection to other characters. For example, when I found out Kaworu had turned on Shinji and later died, I really didn't care that Kaworu was dead, I was just sad for Shinji because Kaworu hurt him. Same thing with Mistao and Kaji. I was sad Mistao was heartbroken over Kaji's death.

I hope Kaworu isn't as under-developed in Rebuild.

[Reichu]

Kaworu ... stands among with Kaji and Yui as characters who aren't really loved for themselves, but are cared because of there connection to other characters.

This generalization fails, as all generalizations do. The fans who care about Kaji, Yui, and Kaworu in their own right are rather fewer in number, but they are around. :raises hand:

I really liked Kaworu. ... I saw a character who was literally the only person who came up out of the blue and said he loved Shinji, and became his friend on a whim when Shinji had no one else to turn to. I can't imagine how good that made Shinji feel, to have a friend just appear out of nowhere. I really respected that.

There is a certain darkness and melancholy to even Kaworu's "positive" interaction with Shinji if you think about it hard enough.

...given how important of role he plays, and NGE's well documented budget problems, my gut tells me that we were meant to get MUCH more of him then we eventually got. Just my opinion. No Sauce.

Isn't the lack of Kaworu more of a script problem than a budgetary one? If he had been written in, he would have been there. It's not as if the cels of him standing around with his hands in his pockets would have cost any more than what they were spending on low-budget character shots anyway, unless his extended presence entailed tons of high-octane kung fu action or something that they couldn't afford to animate. Or if expanding the cast by one person for more than a single episode was more than they could afford (GASP! the real reason Kaworu wasn't in EoTV!!!).

Until he turned on Shinji and made him spiral into wanting 3I. Thanks Kaworu!

Thank Yui and Rei for giving Shinji the privilege of initiating Mass Death, while you're at it.

[The Goose]

Kaworu, to me, falls into a certain patch of characters in Eva. He stands among with Kaji and Yui as characters who aren't really loved for themselves, but are cared because of there connection to other characters. For example, when I found out Kaworu had turned on Shinji and later died, I really didn't care that Kaworu was dead, I was just sad for Shinji because Kaworu hurt him. Same thing with Mistao and Kaji. I was sad Mistao was heartbroken over Kaji's death.

Do you see the TO ME? Thats my opinion, no has to follow it.

[slothen]

yeah, but cuz you posted it, it must be attacked and debated.

The fact that Kaworu comes completely out of the blue to say he loves Shinji is the reason I dislike him. After... 23 episodes of crazy shit, explosions, and emotional rollercoasters, this one random guy comes up, and is all like... BTW I WUB U! I guess more than anything, I resent him. Well, I resent the writers for giving a pivotal role to an undeveloped character, and expecting me to take it all in stride. All of a sudden, episode 24 comes around, and whatever connection or understanding of Shinji I have is gone, because all thats running through my head is.. Who the fuck is this? Who cares? How can you possibly feel betrayed Shinji? you've known the kid for all of a few hours! I suppose thats the heart of it. Shinji is completely and traumatically betrayed, but me/the viewer/whoever could hardly care less about Kaworu. Especially because its hinted at the entire episode that he's the last angel.

So, was this the intention of Anno/Gainax/the-powers-that-be? Was it their intent to put distance between the viewer's emotions and the protagonists?

That certainly was the effect it had on me.

Move Move MOVE! oh come on you've got to move now! or everyone will be killed, God I'm sick of it already! [emphasis mine]

Misato... I can't cry anymore. I feel the pain, but the tears won't come.

These lines described exactly how I felt.

But by episode 24 it was ALL GONE!

I never realized it until now, but Goddamnit Kaworu ruined Evangelion for me!

also, waiting 64 seconds before he finally squished the fucker really pissed me off.

[Reichu]

I really hated Kaworu the first time I saw #24. Although the only specifics I can remember are my brother telling me beforehand, "The last Angel tries to have sex with Shinji." "....ooooookay."

And now I like Kaworu. They better do that fucked-up character justice in Webuild.

[slothen]

eh yeah, I hate him because he was rushed, undeveloped, and written poorly. And akwardly. And they just expected me to just not notice. He's got potential to be interesting, but not in the way the other children are interesting.

[BrikHaus]

All of a sudden, episode 24 comes around, and whatever connection or understanding of Shinji I have is gone, because all thats running through my head is.. Who the fuck is this? Who cares? How can you possibly feel betrayed Shinji? you've known the kid for all of a few hours! I suppose thats the heart of it. Shinji is completely and traumatically betrayed, but me/the viewer/whoever could hardly care less about Kaworu. Especially because its hinted at the entire episode that he's the last angel.

I agree. This may be part of the reason why I dislike him. The other part may be that he is very well liked by many people, even though he really is a flat character that doesn't deserve to be worshiped. Worship Kaji, Shinji, Asuka, Rei, Misato, hell even Gendo, but please don't worship someone who is in the show for only a few minutes.

I think that it would have had a much stronger emotional impact if the final Angel ended up being Asuka or Rei. At least then you could really be conflicted along with Shinji on whether or not he should kill them. With Kaworu I'm just like...whatever, kill him or don't. Who cares.

[Opteron-O3]

That would be interesting... Rei/Asuka as the last angel... total break down right there. :Classical Music in background during fight scene:

[Reichu]

I think that it would have had a much stronger emotional impact if the final Angel ended up being Asuka or Rei.

Then the plot has to either justify Asuka not just being an American-German-Japanese girl, or Rei being something that must be destroyed for the Good Of All rather than a little chess piece of Gendo's that he's been cloning in the basement to carry Lilith's soul around.

It would have been a lot easier just to utilize Kaworu better, since him being the 17th Angel (and the 1st, at the same time...) is the role his character conceptually evolved to fill.

I think part of the reason why Shinji gravitates to Kaworu is because he feels, at the time, that he has no one else to turn to. Kaworu satisfies a need and is a source of comfort, even if this comfort is utterly transient and the interaction in many ways superficial. Shinji knows essentially nothing about Kaworu, and he makes only the feeblest of gestures to find out. One might consider Shinji's side of the relationship entirely self-satisfying.

Kaworu's side is doomed to remain cryptic. It certainly isn't simple.

In any case, we better start talking about Webuild again, or do a split if people want to keep talking about Kaworu.

[C4]

I think that it would have had a much stronger emotional impact if the final Angel ended up being Asuka or Rei. At least then you could really be conflicted along with Shinji on whether or not he should kill them. With Kaworu I'm just like...whatever, kill him or don't. Who cares.

Asuka being the final angel, for me, is far more bizarre and foreign than "random guy" being the last angel. I think at that point, I just give up on the series.(Which actually isn't that bad, since the series is almost over, anyway.)

Rei's a more logical choice, since she's had a strange mystique about her from day one, and she obviously has angelic origins, so it wouldn't be that much of a stretch at all for Rei to be the 17th angel, but Rei's obviously essential to instrumentality, and then you have the whole issue with cloning; are the Rei clones also angels in and of themselves?

Kaworu was always a necessary character to me because he fills a gap that would be impossible for anyone else to fill. Shinji absolutely has to be alienated from Misato, Asuka, Rei, his father, and everyone else. He has to form a brand new connection to a brand new character, so he knows that he could have a chance at happiness with a regular person. Shinji needs to hear "I love you" from a person with which he has absolutely no history, from someone who has absolutely nothing to gain from saying this.

I can't see how Kaworu can be considered underwritten, he fulfilled his purpose entirely, even without the Director's Cut. Sure, if he was a little more involved in the series, he'd be more rounded, but you'd have to give him more plot material to work with, and I think the plot's just fine. I don't need to see how he interacts with Asuka, Misato, or anyone else, how he was in the series was perfect for me. He just showed up, everyone was like, "WTF?", he left a lot of questions unanswered, but for all intents and purposes, he fulfilled his plot requirements entirely, and his impact was undeniable. It's not as if he showed up and did absolutely nothing at all. For me at least, I can't see any place in the original series where Kaworu's involvement would have made the show a better show. Obviously, Rebuild is a different type of animal, and a heaping serving of Kaworu will make for a pretty different hamburger altogether.

So, in summary, I like Kaworu, but I'm not going to go out drinking with him, or anything.

EDIT: Damn, I started writing this post before Reichu's was posted... sorry for the overlap.

[Reichu]

Rei's a more logical choice, since she's had a strange mystique about her from day one, and she obviously has angelic origins <snip>

YAH BUT WHY WOULD ONE OF ADAM'S KIDS LOOK LIKE SHINJIS MOM

are the Rei clones also angels in and of themselves?

Naw. Think of Israfel. (And Lilim.)

Shinji needs to hear "I love you" from a person with which he has absolutely no history, from someone who has absolutely nothing to gain from saying this.

How do you KNOW Kaworu had nothing to gain? People work in mysterious ways, you know.

I can't see how Kaworu can be considered underwritten, he fulfilled his purpose entirely

The buildup to the "punch" could have been handled a little better, I think. Too little, too fast. I don't think Kaworu needed to be physically present in Japan for any longer than he was, though.

I don't need to see how he interacts with Asuka, Misato, or anyone else

I'd take some Misato. (Kekekeke.)

I like Kaworu, but I'm not going to go out drinking with him, or anything.

Yeah, just think about who's REALLY sitting on the stool next to you.

[Trigger's Elysium]

Seems like people wanted him around longer or hate him because he was a Mary Sue. I thought he was around for the perfect amount of time, he didn't need to be around any longer than any of the other Angels. As for the Mary Sue label, I agree, he is a Mary Sue, but I don't hate him because of that. It seemed like Anno set him to be a Mary Sue; the perfect friend for Shinji at that time. He was too perfect, a mirage that appeared right when Shinji needed someone. As soon as Shinji accepted him as a real friend, cue the 9th, it's all over.

So, the Kaworu hate seems to stem from the general hate Eva gets: people hate that Eva was told in the most backwards fashion; nothing went right, everything wasn't what you wanted/expected to happen. Either way, I thought he was a great character, but people wanted more out of him. He's just an Angel in the end, some of the Kaworu hate might be because of that.

(course, I can't take credit for this one, thanks cuban)

[slothen]

thats not being fair to us Kaworu-haters.

[Opteron-O3]

Loving the sig sloth :P

[Sailor Star Dust]

All I'm gonna say: Reichu's theory or no, I like Kaworu. He's (ZOMG! :shock: ) a wonderful character, espeically the whole Angel of Free Will aspect (the fact Kaworu=Adam doesn't hurt to.).

Also, Kaworu's love/friendship for Shinji is just beautiful, sad how Shinji became very depressed because of Kaworu's death, though.

[THE Hal E. Burton 9000]

The whole Kaworu=Adam, Rei=Lilith, humanity=Lilim really got fcuked up, bogged down and lost in the haze that was episodes 19-26'(reminds me of Iraq really :cry: [sorry, *O-T*]). All that was handled so bad now that I've seen the series a few times over. Even if these parts were cleared up and everything else gets butchered in Webuild, I would not hate nor really dislike Webuild too much.