Dummy Plugs: Rei & Kaworu question

[Sailor Star Dust]

This is a nagging question I've had in the back of my mind, but keep in mind I may have read up on this on Leaky, so if any of what I'm saying is unknowingly false, that's why:

Why do the Rei and Kaworu dummy plugs have "malicous" intent (ie: Rei dummy plug crushing Toji's entry plug; Harpies killing off Team Sohryu) if they ARE in fact based on Rei and Kaworu's personalities, who are "nice people"?? :? Not only could I never see Kaworu doing that because of her kind, caring, personality (at least to Shinji *shrug*), but with Rei (espeically Rei II), even if something were orders, would she really go as far as to hurting another human being, not including herself? Just look at her hestitation to fight during that battle in episode 18!

Maybe the main thing to ask is just what the hell are the dummy plugs, which I think is already answered in another topic (probably)?

[Ornette]

Something to trick the Eva into thinking there's a pilot in the entry plug. I've always thought it was something that generated artificial (pre-recorded? simulated?) brain wave patterns. They just happened to be modeled off of Rei and Kaworu. The brainwaves themselves won't do anything, something else is controlling the plug telling it what patterns to generate, like a "walk" pattern, and "crush with your hand" pattern. Since the brain is a pretty complicated thing, Rei needs to sit in the dummy system plant all the time "thinking" about stuff, I guess...

[TriLink]

Not only could I never see Kaworu doing that because of her kind, caring, personality ?

Does this mean Kaworu has officially become a woman now?

[Sailor Star Dust]

In my view~yes. :) Poor pet-theory never gets any love... *sniff*

[Reichu]

Not only could I never see Kaworu doing that because of her kind, caring, personality ?

Does this mean Kaworu has officially become a woman now?

This has been "building up" for a while.

[MaggotMaster]

dummy plugs never made sense and they never will

[Res Novae]

Ritsuko: This is the dummy plug prototype. Rei's personal data has been loaded into it, but it's not really possible to digitize a human mind and soul. Ultimately, it's a fake, an imitation. Just a machine that emulates a pilot's thinking process.

Gendo: It'll transmit a signal pattern to the Eva. As long as the Eva believes there's a pilot and synchronizes, that's enough.

To me, it appeared that the mass production series raped Team Soryu in the same manner that the berserk Unit 01 killed Zeruel. Perhaps it was instincts of the Eva rather than that of the plugs?

As to why the Reibot destroyed Toji's plug, I'm not certain. Maybe the dummy plug was supposed to completely eliminate the target. Unless told otherwise, it would probably consider Toji's plug as part of the enemy. But, this is all just guesswork, so who knows.

[Shin-seiki]

Unit-01 squashed the entry plug because it was infested by the Angel (look carefully at the cut of Toji being pulled from the plug). She was just finishing the job.

[Res Novae]

Unit-01 squashed the entry plug because it was infested by the Angel (look carefully at the cut of Toji being pulled from the plug). She was just finishing the job.

Oi, you're right. There you have it.

[Rommel]

IMHO, the entry-plug can best be compared to some form of artifical intelligence. Like a computer application, it performs it's assigned task or it exits. Since you can't copy the mind or the soul it lacks humanity, and thus is basicaly the part of Rei that is completely inhuman.

[Reichu]

IMHO, the entry-plug can best be compared to some form of artifical intelligence. Like a computer application, it performs it's assigned task or it exits. Since you can't copy the mind or the soul it lacks humanity, and thus is basicaly the part of Rei that is completely inhuman.

If it's at all relevant, amongst the supplemental dialogue added for #18's 5.1 audio track, we have this line during the dummy plug startup procedure:

WOMAN (OFF):
32.8% of Emotional Elements are unclear. They can't be monitored.

"Emotional elements", eh?

(That's just one that ADV happened to translate for Platinum. I haven't looked at all of the new supplemental dialogue yet.)

One emotionally charged moment for the dummied-out harpies that comes to mind: When they reactivate, they're described (in the script) as "leering". (The way they treat Kyoko is sort of suspect, as well.)

[Katayoku no Tenshi]

One emotionally charged moment for the dummied-out harpies that comes to mind: When they reactivate, they're described (in the script) as "leering". (The way they treat Kyoko is sort of suspect, as well.)

I dunno

SEELE 01:
The loathsome Evangelion...

I kinda like the idea of the old men remote controling the MPEs. Like a video game, with the invincibility cheat...

[Rommel]

IMHO, the entry-plug can best be compared to some form of artifical intelligence. Like a computer application, it performs it's assigned task or it exits. Since you can't copy the mind or the soul it lacks humanity, and thus is basicaly the part of Rei that is completely inhuman.

If it's at all relevant, amongst the supplemental dialogue added for #18's 5.1 audio track, we have this line during the dummy plug startup procedure:

WOMAN (OFF):
32.8% of Emotional Elements are unclear. They can't be monitored.

"Emotional elements", eh?

(That's just one that ADV happened to translate for Platinum. I haven't looked at all of the new supplemental dialogue yet.)

One emotionally charged moment for the dummied-out harpies that comes to mind: When they reactivate, they're described (in the script) as "leering". (The way they treat Kyoko is sort of suspect, as well.)

Well, emotions are electric impulses. In a complex enough system you could, in theory, replicate them. But that they can't be monitored possibly indicates a failure to either completely replicate human emotions, or an inavility to do so. That said, other animals have emotions--dogs and cats come to mind--but they are not human. Maybe it would be more accurate to describe the dummy as a dog. What they do to Unit-02 also is very reminising of a pack of wolves, isn't it?

[Reichu]

Well, emotions are electric impulses. In a complex enough system you could, in theory, replicate them. .... That said, other animals have emotions--dogs and cats come to mind--but they are not human. Maybe it would be more accurate to describe the dummy as a dog.

Considering human beings were used as the basis for them -- I don't see what you're trying to get at.

What they do to Unit-02 also is very reminising of a pack of wolves, isn't it?

I've never met a pack of wolves who, after all flashing "leers" (or the lupine equivalent), brutally ravage another, completely incapacitated member of their species; run off and circle said wolf without "finishing the job"; eventually take ver out; and then cannibalize their victim even though they (unlike most wolves) possess an organ that generates unlimited energy and thus have no actual need for food.

Their behavior is rather more like human "barbarism".

Incidentally, the dummy-plugged Yui was humane in comparison -- snapping the neck of EVA-03 before ripping her victim apart, and all.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Incidentally, the dummy-plugged Yui was humane in comparison -- snapping the neck of EVA-03 before ripping her victim apart, and all.

Zuh? Don't you mean ZOMG TEH Rei? Now I'm lost...again. -_-;


EDIT: Scratch that, my brain doesn't want to work today.

[Rommel]

Considering human beings were used as the basis for them -- I don't see what you're trying to get at.

Obviously that perhaps human--true human--emotions are much too complex to digitaly duplicate and the result is a more animalistic entity. Because something is based on something else doesn't mean it's just like it.

I've never met a pack of wolves who, after all flashing "leers" (or the lupine equivalent), brutally ravage another, completely incapacitated member of their species; run off and circle said wolf without "finishing the job"; eventually take ver out; and then cannibalize their victim even though they (unlike most wolves) possess an organ that generates unlimited energy and thus have no actual need for food.

Their behavior is rather more like human "barbarism".

Incidentally, the dummy-plugged Yui was humane in comparison -- snapping the neck of EVA-03 before ripping her victim apart, and all.

First, you've obviously never met a pack of wolves or you wouldn't be here. And second, similar incidents have been know to happen. It's called pack mentality. Wolves not only stalk their prey, but have been known to actually PLAY with it, wounding it before moving in for the kill. They also kill each other. Sharks do it too. In fact, most predatory animals do.

Also, barbarians--whether you mean, I duno, Gauls? Celts? Saxons?--neither canibalise nor have S2 organs so your own logic makes the analogy false. And saying that Yui was compasionate by breaking Unit-03's neck first is a little saying shooting someone in the head is more compasionate than shooting them somewhere else. Not really. The neck is a naturaly vulnerable spot. If you want to kill something with your bare hands that's the first thing you go for.

[Reichu]

Obviously that perhaps human--true human--emotions are much too complex to digitaly duplicate and the result is a more animalistic entity.

Not that we are exempt from "animalisms".

Because something is based on something else doesn't mean it's just like it.

I didn't claim that it was.

First, you've obviously never met a pack of wolves or you wouldn't be here.

Idiomatic language. You dig it?

Also, barbarians

I put "barbarism" in quotes because I wasn't being particularly specific.

And back to Dictionary.com... (Need to use "barbarous" since "barbarism" includes that in the definition.)

barbarous

1. uncivilized; wild; savage; crude.
2. savagely cruel or harsh: The prisoners of war were given barbarous treatment.

...nor have S2 organs

That part may not transfer properly. (I mentioned it mostly due to the first stage of my brain-process, "harpies =/= wolves".)

And saying that Yui was compasionate by breaking Unit-03's neck first is a little saying shooting someone in the head is more compasionate than shooting them somewhere else. Not really. The neck is a naturaly vulnerable spot. If you want to kill something with your bare hands that's the first thing you go for.

And if you're a harpy, you leave it completely untouched.

"Humane" in the sense of nullifying the brain's pathway to the rest of the body, thereby keeping such unpleasantness as massive pain from being processed.* Since this is an Eva we're talking about, she wasn't actually dead yet, but it seems infinitely preferable to the suffering Kyoko went through.

* At least, in theory.

[TriLink]

I've always thought of the MPE's as more vulture like than anything else. Look at the way they circle around Unit-02 before the fight with Team Soryu and the way they all go into a feeding frenzy once Unit-02 is defeated.

Wolves have a Hierarchy system. First the dominant male eats, then the other males, and the females get what's left regardless of who's kill it was. It's not dinner at the White House, but it's a least somewhat orderly. The way the harpies went about things was more vulture like.

Vultures are too stupid to have a system like wolves. When they see food something inside of them goes off and they go for it, consequences be damned. They just pile on top of each other and hope to get a scrap, just like our little MPE's.

[Reichu]

The vulture-esque imagery is there, certainly. Trying to make too close a correlation is imprecise, though, since the situation is so different. After expressing what could be considered feelings of malice, the harpies rip apart their live victim -- knowing that she is alive, perhaps unlike vultures who might swarm over a fallen animal who's not-quite-dead-yet; "not moving, good enough for me" -- and eat her a little, then back off and let her squirm around a little before taking her down in eight swift strokes, and then helping themselves to her pathetic corpse.

There are a lot of animalisms to what they do, but IMO there is a rather dark human edge to it. Incidentally, their "processing" of Kyoko lacks the straightforward approach of EVA-01, who just incapacitates EVA-03 and takes care of business without messing around. (And no cannibalism or anything.)

Vultures are too stupid to have a system like wolves.

I typically dislike it when non-humans are referenced with loaded terms like "stupid". That should only be used comparatively within members of the same species, e.g., "damn, what a stupid dog; that's inbreeding for ya". Vultures, like wolves, are what they are, and they're good at what they do.

A plethora of means exist to better express the concepts you're after than "stupid", IMHO.</pet peeve>