I believe Mari is another (guardian) angel figure in Eva

[Loco123]

Hi All,

I used to be a "passive" reader of this forum from time to time but now I've decided it's time to add my 5 pennies to discussion.

Actually, I've watched Rebuild series just to see finally positive ending of my beloved AsuShin couple after long years of waiting and...you know what

Anyway, this new series still grasps my attention and many questions remain unanswered. I dug through some of numerous topics in this section and see that everyone struggle to understand Mari's background and her role in this new franchise. It is often implied she is a clone of some NERV scientist - based on the picture that Fuyutsuki shows to Shinji. This might be true but only partially.

My own observations after watching rebulds are:

1. She cannot be a human thing - she is way too perfect, powerful, aware and influential for that. A sort of female Kaworu?

2. Her bond with Asuka is not coincidential. It seems to be going way beyond normal friendship of teenage girls and It is something much more important to the fabule than we suppose. I believe It is somehow connected with point 1. and true, unrevealed status of Mari. Is she intended to be somebody like Rei/Kaworu/both to Asuka (and later to Shinji)?

For some reason both points are not clearly explained in the movies. Maybe it's because Mari 's initial concept changed over years of Rebulids' production and while making 3.0+1.0 they decided to develop it in other way leaving this semi-finished theme because they didn't know how to use it? More likely this arc remains undeveloped for purpose - it leave space for future movies/manga etc.

I suppose the safest way to build theory behind Mari is to stick to character and relation models already existing in Eva series. We already have 2 "guardian" angels (both to Shinji) - Rei Ayanami and Kaworu Nagisa. Should they be used as a hint for analysing Mari?

Since I saw Mary's first appearance I could not resist impression she totally doesn't fit to this series. She looks more like a guest star from Marvel universe than a typical Eva character, They could add Donald Duck to the movie and it would make exactly the same sense - until we assume she is trully an Angel and her capabilities are way above all the others.

It is clear she serves as a mysterious plot device. She appears in situations we don't expect her to be. She knows almost everything, she knows what to do, she is fearless and lacked of hesitation and internal conflict. Another hint is that she can pilot Eva 02 which was said to be exclusive tool of Auka. What is rationale behind it? Before her only Kaworu and Rei were capable of doing such trick - either due to Adam's god power or genetical resemblance to original pilot. Some say that the concept of mother-child relation as evangelion drive has been abandoned in Rebuilds but I wouldn't be so sure. Maybe you overlook significant hint?

From the very beginning Mari looks to me as flawless version of Asuka - just like Kaworu was a flawless Shinji. That enables them to make good friends with most antisocial characters in series.

Many people consider her to be a clone of some NERV scientists visible in the picture below. OK, but that's not a problem. There is another person in the picture that has a clone with goddess' soul. No contradiction here then. Can we consider this another hint?



Another thing is that to some of you person in the picture resembles both Asuka and Mari. Another hint? Is Mari somehow clonned Asuka's mother just like Rei is Shinji's mother? Of course "official" Asuka's mother is Kyoko Soryou but it is a minor thing that can be, khem-khem, "rebuild" very easily - in dozen possible ways. Is Mari's devotion somehow caused by "god's mercy" (like in case of Kaworu-Shinji relation) or genetical similarity (Rei-Shinji) or maybe both at once?

[EDIT]

In initial version of this post I forgot to mention that I still just don't believe that Anno simply erased maybe the most iconic Eva character-
Asuka Soryu, from this timeline. What would be a purpose of such move? OK, It was mentioned by him in one of old interviews that he want to underline it's a new story and a new reality (or something like that) but it seems to be just another bait so fans don't ask too many questions before true reason appears. There is no consequence in this approach (only Asuka is significantly altered in the Rebuilds - even goddamn penguin is the same). To fully understand this topic we would need to know what happened to the "real" Asuka (Soryou) in Rebuilds and what is her reference to Shikinami. I suppose this special relation between Mari ans Shikinami is somehow a result of ..special relation between Mari and Soryu?

[/EDIT]

My last argument related to the "second" beach scene which seems to be final resolution of maybe most iconic Evangelion theme (I've mentioned in the praface to this post how much I don't like it). They still somehow put Mari into it. She really speaks more like guardian angel like a normal person. Asuka is cured now and she doesn't need her help anymore so it's time to say goodbye.

It also gives a new light to the final train station scene. Most people (me included) sees it as a beginning of romantic affair between Shinji and very mystorious woman she talked to for 5 mins in his entire life. It looks really odd until we change perception of her form a human being to an "guardian" angel. She alredy saved Asuka so now she's going to help Shinji.

I think this "guardian Angel" theme was used in original series too. One one hand we see Kaworu/Rei (Quantum Rei in particular). That "sequentioning" of help given to particular protagonists is also in use in Eva. Part of fandom complains that Shinji failed to save Asuke in original series. Yes, but same time he managed to save Rei. Bandage theme visible in E1, Rei III appearance (where she don't need them actually) and EoE beach scene (where Asuka wears it) clearly shows the chronology: he helped Rei throughout the series and now it's time for Asuka. It's a pity it was all erased eventually via 3.0+1.0.

Of course we can still argue that Mari is not an Angel "just" kind of clone of a senior nerv scientist - actually they are extremally smart, genial people so maybe that would somehow clarify her genearal brilliance. It is clearly implied that Fuyutsuki knows her and collaborate with her even though formally they are in enemy camps. Calling her "Iscariot" might indicate that she once upon time they worked together and their goals were compatible (meaning of this "Judas" phrase is just a guess though).

Thig might be true but still I doubt if cloning normal people is that easy. I still see her character strikely resembling Kaworu - she is simply too ideal to be a human, even most brilliant human.

Even if she's not an Angel actually, we still have point 2. to resolve. It is not a concidence she built a bond with Asuka. Why is she doing this?

Plese tell me what you think of it! Thanks for reading!

[dzzthink]

There are many suggestions that this character is too good to be true, and the religious interpretations are definitely there. The name of Iscariot relates to being possessed by the devil and betraying Jesus Christ but that does not mean anything outside the fact she is a double agent for different organisations. There are many religious motifs are not always relevant in Eva and Angels themselves only serve as antagonists that are all defeated and don't show up again in EoE or Thrice.

She does not have any other abilities that outside the range of extensive combat training and she does seem to have connections with the past based on flashbacks and the photo. However, while Asuka got some scenes to show that she is a clone, this is not done for Mari and her her history is never made conclusive. This means it is really up to interpretation whether she has importance to the history of Eva or if she is just a plot device to drive the story. There are lots of scenes that point to the fact that she might be some kind of powerful entity with lots of backstory. I think that was the intention, but the central story still focuses on Shinji, so I don't think it was worth going into more detail about Mari, except for a few hints and easter eggs. In the end, I don't feel much for this character since even if she saves Shinji in the end, but we don't think of her as a Misato and Asuka since she barely interacts with him.

[BernardoCairo]

From the very beginning Mari looks to me as flawless version of Asuka - just like Kaworu was a flawless Shinji. That enables them to make good friends with most antisocial characters in series.

I totally agree with this. After all, Mari was originally conceived as a rival to Asuka, someone who would outperform her in every way possible (robbing her of her EVA and Shinji's attention). Like Kaworu, she's good with the EVA, but she's an open person and doesn't let insecurities and fears put her down like the main duo. She is a realized person from the start and does for Asuka what Kaworu does for Shinji (plays the role of a genuine great friend who is there for her right after she lost everything). But unlike Kaworu, her story doesn't lead to tragedy. On the contrary! She is the one who leads Shinji to a new and happy world in the end.

[Asunji_Yuko]

TBH, I think this is reading into her character waaaaaaaay too much.

The first point I'll make is that she wasn't conceived by Anno, nor did he really put her into the movies by his own volition. The producer (Otsuki) explicitly requested a new character, for which Anno believed the motive was likely commercial. Aka, let's put in a new character to make $$$ on merchandise. Anno, more or less, believed the character had no basis to exist beyond that. She was considered a minor character and that it wouldn't even matter if she never spoke.

To answer your question, no, she isn't and never was a guardian angel. She does things perfectly because Anno didn't want to explore her in depth, not because she is "like Kaworu."

https://gwern.net/doc/anime/eva/2010-crc

https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/com ... ?context=3

[AsukaShikinami10]

Asunji_Yuko wrote:
To answer your question, no, she isn't and never was a guardian angel. She does things perfectly because Anno didn't want to explore her in depth, not because she is "like Kaworu."

I agree. They were never sure what role Mari was to play overall in Eva, so at the end they pulled this "she knows a lot because she was an aquaintance of Gendo and Yui from their University years".

And then it seemed to be like they couldn't answer why she looked so young and didn't deal with it because they (the team behind NTE) gave no f*cks about fans or logic anymore.

[BernardoCairo]

I don't agree with this line of thought at all. Anno didn't really create her, yeah. But that doesn't mean the guys behind her didn't have their own ideas and intentions while coming up with her character. They did and it's documented. Was she well developed and implemented in the story? I wouldn't say so. But that's not the point.
There are several things in NTE that weren't conceived by Anno directly (or that were adopted for commercial reasons purely). Still, those things have intention behind them. Tsurumaki, for example, was a great creative powerhouse during the development of the tetralogy.

[Asunji_Yuko]

I don't agree with this line of thought at all. Anno didn't really create her, yeah. But that doesn't mean the guys behind her didn't have their own ideas and intentions while coming up with her character. They did and it's documented. Was she well developed and implemented in the story? I wouldn't say so. But that's not the point.
There are several things in NTE that weren't conceived by Anno directly (or that were adopted for commercial reasons purely). Still, those things have intention behind them. Tsurumaki, for example, was a great creative powerhouse during the development of the tetralogy.

I don't see why that matters. If ideas and intentions aren't effectively incorporated into the story and character, or not incorporated at all, then it makes no difference who came up with what ideas and when, because in the end, it's no different than the ideas never having existed because they're not in the actual story.

From the description of Mari in your first post, she sounds incredibly dull with no depth, character arc, or relatability. No insecurities, no hang ups, is great at pretty much everything? Mary Sue to a tee. In a series like Evangelion, those things are unforgiveable. And here's the thing - while Kaworu was a kind-of Mary Sue (Gary Stu?) in that respect, that was okay because he wasn't a human, but an angel. He also had a dark ending that drastically affected the protagonist, and we see how hurt he is in EoE. Mari had no such role in any of the movies. Leading Shinji off into a "happy life" was pretty hollow because we don't see what becomes of Shinji's life.

A lot of people seem to insist on certain headcanons of Mari to justify her existence that simply are not in the movies, regardless of what was in the nth draft of the scripts.

[Blockio]

I am beginning to suspect that you don't actually know what a Mary Sue is. It is not a female character who is cheerful and competent when others are less so - it is a structural issue.
For what it's worth, Shinji in the movies fits the label better than Mari does, because a lot of plot points that shouldn't be about him do end up being about him after all - that, in its extreme form, is the true mark of a Mary Sue that has not been watered down by three decades of the term being used as a buzzword to describe anything the speaker doesn't like.

You are claiming that Mari is simultaneously a Mary Sue and that she does not matter to the story at all - those two are mutually exclusive. Pick one.
(or, better yet, don't describe everything using extremes and try to navigate the discussion with more nuance; why do you not like her, what do you think does not work about her, beyond throwing around generalizations that are so broad strokes that they are effectively impossible to meaningfully reply to because they don't say much of anything)

[Axx°N N.]

You are claiming that Mari is simultaneously a Mary Sue and that she does not matter to the story at all - those two are mutually exclusive. Pick one.

You seem to be alluding to a usage of the term that I'm both unfamiliar with and that seems rather oblique. The very first sentence on the wikipedia entry for Mary Sue is:

"A Mary Sue is a character archetype in fiction, usually a young woman, who is often portrayed as inexplicably competent across all domains, gifted with unique talents or powers, liked or respected by most other characters, unrealistically free of weaknesses, extremely attractive, innately virtuous, and/or generally lacking meaningful character flaws."

It would take herculean efforts to argue that this doesn't apply to Mari. And equal efforts to argue it applies to Shinji, who spends a great deal of screen time on a down slump.

...don't describe everything using extremes and try to navigate the discussion with more nuance; why do you not like her, what do you think does not work about her, beyond throwing around generalizations that are so broad strokes that they are effectively impossible to meaningfully reply to because they don't say much of anything.

I'd argue the very reason a term like Mary sue exists is because it captures something specific but common about what many people are prone to dislike in a narrative; as shorthand it does a great deal of load carrying, and like all language, was born out of necessity. I'd argue that it would take more effort (and end up being more inexact) to willfully dance around the matter of fact existence of a broadly recognized category of character that in this case checks every box of its criteria.

[Konja7]

I'd argue the very reason a term like Mary sue exists is because it captures something specific but common about what many people are prone to dislike in a narrative; as shorthand it does a great deal of load carrying, and like all language, was born out of necessity. I'd argue that it would take more effort (and end up being more inexact) to willfully dance around the matter of fact existence of a broadly recognized category of character that in this case checks every box of its criteria.

The Mary Sue term was created for fanfics. It was later that people started to use it for characters in regular fiction.

Honestly, the definition of wikipedia is only one of the many definitions this term has been used, but it isn't really a clear term. This is partially because the interpretation of "lack of flaws" varies according to people. Unfortunately, the Mary Sue term is often used as "I dislike this (female) character".

In fact, Mari being quite relegated in the story could save her from being called a Mary Sue in many interpretations. After all, another trait of Mary Sue is supposedly that they steal all the protagonism.


PS: Mary Sue wouldn't be a so popular term if it was only used for characters like Mari.

[Axx°N N.]

Honestly, the definition of wikipedia is only one of the many definitions this term has been used, but it isn't really a clear term. This is partially because the interpretation of "lack of flaws" varies according to people.

It's not like it's a random assortment of contradictory criteria--it all has to do with a character being without flaw. Whether you take it on just that metric or fan it out into a bunch of more precise descriptors ... isn't that Mari? You can say in the abstract that "lack of flaws" is subjective and varies according to "interpretations" ... but in reality, has there ever actually been a case of disagreement on her flawlessness? I don't even see fans of her character forward that argument.

I mean, anyone can litigate against the relevance of the term all they want--it doesn't change that it's already the case (and always has been) that it's a pretty common read of Mari, if not the prevailing one. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the pun "Mari Sue" across the internet since basically her first appearance.

If "stealing protagonism" is a hallmark, Mari hits that checkmark too--and that's not according to interpretation, it's according to production interviews that went into detail about how Mari was inserted into narrative space Asuka previously occupied. Part of Mari's negative perception as a Mary Sue isn't so much that it's bad in itself, it's exactly that it "stole protagonism," reducing everyone else's screentime no matter how brief the appearance per film. That's the crux of many a critique here on EGF alone, but it's yet again a common one elsewhere.

You can say the term is abused and misused and doesn't mean anything when used in certain situations ... but I don't think this is the circumstance that lends that argument credibility. If you took the term out of Asunji_Yuko's post, what would remain are perfectly valid critiques of what the term "Mary Sue" describes anyway, so why the charge that it was used frivolously?

[Konja7]

It's not like it's a random assortment of contradictory criteria--it all has to do with a character being without flaw. Whether you take it on just that metric or fan it out into a bunch of more precise descriptors ... isn't that Mari? You can say in the abstract that "lack of flaws" is subjective and varies according to "interpretations" ... but in reality, has there ever actually been a case of disagreement on her flawlessness? I don't even see fans of her character forward that argument.

This is likely true. People who like the character wouldn't find issue with Mari's "flawlessness", because they don't issue with that. It's often people who dislike a character, who find issue with a lack of flaws or conflicts in characters.

Another thing, in Star War, Rey was called a Mary Sue, although the character has conflicts and flaws since the first movie she appears. Mary Sue tend to be used as a random assortment of contradictory criteria

If "stealing protagonism" is a hallmark, Mari hits that checkmark too--and that's not according to interpretation, it's according to production interviews that went into detail about how Mari was inserted into narrative space Asuka previously occupied. Part of Mari's negative perception as a Mary Sue isn't so much that it's bad in itself, it's exactly that it "stole protagonism," reducing everyone else's screentime no matter how brief the appearance per film. That's the crux of many a critique here on EGF alone, but it's yet again a common one elsewhere.

If Mari "stealing protagonism" from Asuka makes her a Mary Sue, I hardly see how being a Mary Sue would be a real criticism. Mari taking the narrative place of Asuka doesn't make her a worse or better character.

Mari "stealing protagonism" from Asuka hardly affected Asuka's development as a character. At most, Mari took some badass scenes in 2.0 and 3.0.


PS: I have issue with the Mary Sue term, because it doesn't tend to be honest. People tend to accuse the character is a Mary Sue because the "lack of flaws", but the real issue with the character tends to be more personal.

[Axx°N N.]

If Mari "stealing protagonism" from Asuka makes her a Mary Sue, I hardly see how being a Mary Sue would be a real criticism. Mari taking the narrative place of Asuka doesn't make her a worse or better character.

My point wasn't that her being one was itself a criticism of mine, or anything qualitative, really. Being a Mary Sue doesn't instantly mean anything positive or negative, depending on other factors. It's a way to describe how a character functions in a narrative. If you really think about it, there are entire genres (see: mecha) upheld by what could be argued to be Mary Sues, and for its fans it's an attraction instead of detraction.

I just didn't think it made sense for you to say Mari wasn't one because of her missing a trait that many, many people do in fact perceive her to have. It's not just that she adopted some of Asuka's role--it's that she did this and also has other Mary Sue qualities (like ... all of them), especially in contrast to said prior established super flawed character.

Dying on the hill of Mary Sue being a "thou shalt not be uttered" descriptor of a pretty patently perfect example of one just seems kinda silly.

I have issue with the Mary Sue term, because it doesn't tend to be honest. People tend to accuse the character is a Mary Sue because the "lack of flaws", but the real issue with the character tends to be more personal.

I'm not saying that's not true in other cases. It's just I struggle to imagine how one could have issue with Mari that isn't because of her lack of flaws. That's the only complaint I've repeatedly seen. Are you saying there's some kind of hidden motive behind not finding her character well written? Isn't that a kind of dishonesty, or at least an accusation of dishonesty?

[Konja7]

I'm not saying that's not true in other cases. It's just I struggle to imagine how one could have issue with Mari that isn't because of her lack of flaws. That's the only complaint I've repeatedly seen. Are you saying there's some kind of hidden motive behind not finding her character well written? Isn't that a kind of dishonesty, or at least an accusation of dishonesty?

Well, you've already mentioned the complaints about Mari "stealing protagonism" from Asuka. That issue wouldn't be related with her "lack of flaws".

Not saying that all people who complaint about Mari's "lack of flaws" have a hidden motive, but this kind of criticism tend to have another reason to dislike the character. Or people would be complaining about the President of Class or Kensuke for "lack of flaws" in 3.0+1.0 too.

[Axx°N N.]

Well, you've already mentioned the complaints about Mari "stealing protagonism" from Asuka. That issue wouldn't be related with her "lack of flaws".

Not saying that all people who complaint about Mari's "lack of flaws" have a hidden motive, but this kind of criticism tend to have another reason to dislike the character. Or people would be complaining about the President of Class or Kensuke for "lack of flaws" in 3.0+1.0 too.

Why wouldn't it be related to her lack of flaws? If a character with flaws is replaced with a character without flaws, that invites comparison. It absolutely can compound what could be seen as bad about each individual trait.

Mari was positioned from her introduction, at least from a marketing sense, as being equal with Shinji, Asuka, Rei, and Kaworu. Shinji's classmates don't single-handedly fell hordes of enemies or act as the usher into a parallel dimension, reveal a past of privileged information as surprise colleagues of Gendo and Yui, etc. They're just doing people things.

[Mr. Tines]

Mari is not the classic Sue in the sense of the original Star Trek fanfic where a low rank character does everything right and gets deferred to by her superiors; but, lacking ties to the original, she does appear to be used as an agent of the author, having secret knowledge that enables her to be present when needed to progress parts of the plot - culminating in the "neither Team Red nor Team Blue" eruption out of nowhere from the sea in fading negative space.

[nerv bae]

Mari is not the classic Sue in the sense of the original Star Trek fanfic where a low rank character does everything right and gets deferred to by her superiors;

I don't have a horse in this Mary Sue race, but it occurs to me: isn't Mari a low rank character (an Eva pilot under the control of Kaji, then NERV, then WILLE—she always nominally answers to somebody) who does everything right (undisputed) and gets deferred to by her superiors (it seems like everyone puts up with her shit)?

[Blockio]

isn't Mari a low rank character (an Eva pilot under the control of Kaji, then NERV, then WILLE—she always nominally answers to somebody)

Not really, no; she's not the boss of anything, but quite heavily implied to have goals and potentially even allies that are not in line with the organizations who she pilots for. Remember, the first thing she does after killing the 3rd and destroying Unit 05 is complaining about the need to "use adults" to achieve her own goals; she also appears to be aligned with the IPEA, for whom the only thing we know about are that they are an international oprganization with enough power that they get cordoned off jurisdiction within Nerv facilities and at the end of the day oppose the usage of Evangelions.

Mari is not doing her own thing, she's a double agent, much like Kaji, who she is very likely also working with

[BernardoCairo]

I don't see why that matters. If ideas and intentions aren't effectively incorporated into the story and character, or not incorporated at all, then it makes no difference who came up with what ideas and when, because in the end, it's no different than the ideas never having existed because they're not in the actual story.

It was you who said that because Anno didn't come up her, there could be no intention behind her character at all. All I did was point out that, although he wasn't very involved, the people who created her had intentions and themes they wanted to express through her character. This doesn't mean she's a great character or that she was implemented well in the story. But that's not the point. The OP wasn't talking about her quality as a character. He only shared his valid interpretation of things that are in the movies. Authorial intention exists and she was not created in a vacuum.

[Asunji_Yuko]

I am beginning to suspect that you don't actually know what a Mary Sue is. It is not a female character who is cheerful and competent when others are less so - it is a structural issue.

Don't know where you're getting that from. The definition from Oxford English dictionary is:

Mar·y Sue (noun)
(originally in fan fiction) a type of female character who is depicted as unrealistically lacking in flaws or weaknesses.

That's...what Mari is, my dude. She doesn't have any obvious problems, flaws, or weaknesses in any of the movies. Like it or not, it fits her to a tee.

SPOILER: Show

I don't see why that matters. If ideas and intentions aren't effectively incorporated into the story and character, or not incorporated at all, then it makes no difference who came up with what ideas and when, because in the end, it's no different than the ideas never having existed because they're not in the actual story.

It was you who said that because Anno didn't come up her, there could be no intention behind her character at all. All I did was point out that, although he wasn't very involved, the people who created her had intentions and themes they wanted to express through her character. This doesn't mean she's a great character or that she was implemented well in the story. But that's not the point. The OP wasn't talking about her quality as a character. He only shared his valid interpretation of things that are in the movies. Authorial intention exists and she was not created in a vacuum.

I didn't say there couldn't be any intention behind her character at all since Anno didn't come up with her. I said that OP was overreading into her background. She wasn't written as a perfect and happy character because she's an angel, like Kaworu, or has some kind of deep, meaningful backstory, as OP has speculated. She was written as such because ultimately, no one knew what to do with her because she was shoehorned in per the request of a producer.

If there's evidence that this sort of thing was considered in earlier drafts for Mari, then maybe OP was onto something. Otherwise...it's little more than fanfiction (though the fanfiction might make her more interesting than the actual movies did).