What exactly is Kaworu?

[Raikyu]

Does anyone have any theory about Kaworu's nature in the new continuity? What exactly is him and what is his role in the lore?

In the original show, Kaworu was an angel that is the reincarnation of the First Angel Adam in a Lilin Body. But in NTE, we don't have any hint that he plays the same role.

This time, Kaworu starts as the First Angel, but in Q he descends to the Thirteenth Angel. We also know that he is trapped in a loop and that he has access to the "Book of Life" (maybe a chapter of the dead sea scrolls?).

I have some ideas that I would like to share with you:

Kaworu may be linked to Eva 13, because every time that unit was used, Kaworu was present. In Q, he was one of the pilots, and in Shin, his soul could be seen inside the Unit, especially during that scene with the original Shikinami. Also, when Shinji was saying to Kaworu that he was gonna destroy Evangelion 13, he said "I have to get rid of your Eva, Unit 13 too", which could imply that this unit has some link to Kaworu.

I'm a fan of the theory that says that this unit is the Fifth Adams, so what if Kaworu is the reincarnation of the Fifth Adams?

After becoming the 13th Angel, Kaworu says that "the beginning and the end are the same", just like God is "the alpha and the omega" in the bible. This could mean that Kaworu has some kind of "godly status", which could be again related to the Fifth Adams. Even, Kaji's dialogues in Shin, describe Kaworu as some kind of messianic figure like a God living among men. Could this mean that, in Q, Kaworu was "dethroned" from his "godly status" by Gendo, and in turn became a new (fallen) angel?

We know that Eva 13 is some kind of god and Asuka even calls it "God's Eva". So I conclude that there was originally a godly being that was the Fifth Adams and played a role similar to the angel Adam from the original show. This being reincarnated in Kaworu and his original body was repurposed as Evangelion 13, which has no AT-Field due to his soul being inside Kaworu. Gendo stole Kaworu's "godly status", in order to advance with his plans, which resulted in Kaworu becoming a new angel. The exact details regarding this process are still unknown. However, in Shin, Kaworu was able to take the control of the Instrumentality, after Shinji talked to Gendo, which could mean that Kaworu was able to recover his status.

These are some ideas that I have, but I'm not really that confident about them, because I can still identify some holes, for example how the coffins in the moon fit in all of this.

What do you think about this? Do you have any alternative theory or explanation regarding Kaworu's role in NTE?

[Archer]

I’ll be honest, I don’t even really understand what the whole “first Angel being demoted to 13th” thing even meant, from both a plot and a lore standpoint.

[Konja7]

These are some ideas that I have, but I'm not really that confident about them, because I can still identify some holes, for example how the coffins in the moon fit in all of this.

I have a pretty similar theory. I think a "Fifth Adam" could be the First Angel, while Kaworu has this soul in his body.

I think the coffins are how SEELE tries to create Kaworu, while the open coffins are failed attempts.

In the Instrumentality, the coffins are a metaphorical representation of Kaworu's eternal loop. However, these coffins really exist in 1.11, so these must fulfill a function.

[Raikyu]

These are some ideas that I have, but I'm not really that confident about them, because I can still identify some holes, for example how the coffins in the moon fit in all of this.

I have a pretty similar theory. I think a "Fifth Adam" could be the First Angel, while Kaworu has this soul in his body.

I think the coffins are how SEELE tries to create Kaworu, while the open coffins are failed attempts.

In the Instrumentality, the coffins are a metaphorical representation of Kaworu's eternal loop. However, these coffins really exist in 1.11, so these must fulfill a function.

Yep, that's how I see things too. But the loop makes it weird, because in every iteration, Kaworu starts as the First Angel (OG Adam/NTE Fifth Adams), reincarnates in a Lilin body and meets Shinji. And he remembers every iteration.

[T. K. Simon]

Yep, that's how I see things too. But the loop makes it weird, because in every iteration, Kaworu starts as the First Angel (OG Adam/NTE Fifth Adams), reincarnates in a Lilin body and meets Shinji. And he remembers every iteration.

If I'm honest, I don't even know if this kaworu is from the nge, there are a lot of messes

One of those is the loops theme.
I think it would be much simpler to assume that rebuils have their own separate loop from NGE, but I'm not at all sure if that could be the answer.

As Konja said, the coffins exist in 1.0, they seem to have a Kaworu "summon" function

The ones we see in Shin are due to Kaworu's memories, they all have a Seele (Rebuild) symbol which makes things even more complicated.

[Zoop]

You were the first to bring NGE into this tho, which I think we shouldn't be doing at all.
It's ambiguous at best if there is even a loop (for Kaworu that is) but NGE most certainly has nothing to do with it.

The way I interpret Kaworu's vague mentions of meeting Shinji again, making him happy this time, being destined to meet him etc is because he wrote the book of life (whatever that exactly entails).
My theory, he had different scenarios thought out, different versions of his story for the book of life until he finally settled for the current version. But in all his stories, he always ended up meeting Shinji, no matter how he wrote it, that's how it always was going to be, there was no way around it, destiny, if you will. Doesn't mean these different scenarios actually ever played out (aka loops), just different "drafts". Is also why he seems to know so much about Shinji, he pretty much wrote him (and I'm guessing all this has to be done at the Golgotha Object).

If he's capable of deciding such things, kind of makes omnipotent / omniscient (up to a certain point tho (probably 2nd impact), otherwise Gendo would never have been able to surprise him), and thus yes, he must be the OG God (capital G), thus the First Angel, Adam (not plural) etc. Which is why it was important for Gendo to dethrone him to a "lowly" angel, so Gendo together with Eva13 could take his spot, go to the Golgotha Object and do some writing of his own.

Something along those lines, at least.

[Konja7]

You were the first to bring NGE into this tho, which I think we shouldn't be doing at all.
It's ambiguous at best if there is even a loop (for Kaworu that is) but NGE most certainly has nothing to do with it.

I don't think the loop is really ambiguous. In the Instrumentality, we've seen that Kaworu wakes up from a coffin many times. It seems he's trapped in an eternal loop, which makes Kaworu miserable (the reason why he wants to make Shinji happy).

It's only said Kaworu wrote Shinji's name in the book of life, but it isn't mentioned that he wrote his own name.



PS: Regarding NGE, I don't want it to be part of the loop. However, I think writers left open to the interpretation if this part of the loop o not.

[Raikyu]

My theory, he had different scenarios thought out, different versions of his story for the book of life until he finally settled for the current version. But in all his stories, he always ended up meeting Shinji, no matter how he wrote it, that's how it always was going to be, there was no way around it, destiny, if you will. Doesn't mean these different scenarios actually ever played out (aka loops), just different "drafts". Is also why he seems to know so much about Shinji, he pretty much wrote him (and I'm guessing all this has to be done at the Golgotha Object).

Maybe Kaworu/Eva-13/OG Adam(s) was the guardian of the Golgotha Object, while the 4 Adams are the guardians of the "Hell's Gates". Just a thought

If he's capable of deciding such things, kind of makes omnipotent / omniscient (up to a certain point tho (probably 2nd impact), otherwise Gendo would never have been able to surprise him), and thus yes, he must be the OG God (capital G), thus the First Angel, Adam (not plural) etc. Which is why it was important for Gendo to dethrone him to a "lowly" angel, so Gendo together with Eva13 could take his spot, go to the Golgotha Object and do some writing of his own.

That's how I see things too.

[T. K. Simon]

Kaworu said he wrote Shinji's name in the book of life, nothing more, we entered instead of speculation

I am inclined to think that this kaworu is invoked by the coffins of 1.0, but it is aware of the cycles within the rebuild itself and also of the other dimensions (or realities), in this case, NGE.

That makes him an omniscient being, besides, he tells Shinji that he remembers being there so many times because of the book of life. Since Shinji could be spiritually the same in each dimension, but that is just a speculation

[Konja7]

That makes him an omniscient being, besides, he tells Shinji that he remembers being there so many times because of the book of life. Since Shinji could be spiritually the same in each dimension, but that is just a speculation

It's complicated, because it isn't totally clear what it means to have your name written in the book of life (although it seems to be related with the loop).

[T. K. Simon]

That makes him an omniscient being, besides, he tells Shinji that he remembers being there so many times because of the book of life. Since Shinji could be spiritually the same in each dimension, but that is just a speculation

It's complicated, because it isn't totally clear what it means to have your name written in the book of life (although it seems to be related with the loop).

Obviously, it is speculation.

But I bring it up because Asuka Shikinami doesn't seem to give any indication of knowing about NGE, she blushed because she returned her feelings from her past. I guess if she knew something, they would have shown it to us, just like Shinji or kaworu
Rei could also be on this list, due to her condition

[wiser3754]

You know what confuses me about Kaworu? Gendo states that Lilin are blessed with the fruit of knowledge and the Angel's the Fruit of life.

Does anyone find a paradox with Kaworu being both eternal and having knowledge of the past? Not to mention able to play a piano, read and write into the Book of Life and pilot an Eva?

Sounds like Kaworu has been blessed with both Fruits yet he considers himself an Angel.

[Raikyu]

Maybe he can learn knowledge already discovered, but can't create knowledge.

[Konja7]

You know what confuses me about Kaworu? Gendo states that Lilin are blessed with the fruit of knowledge and the Angel's the Fruit of life.

Does anyone find a paradox with Kaworu being both eternal and having knowledge of the past? Not to mention able to play a piano, read and write into the Book of Life and pilot an Eva?

Sounds like Kaworu has been blessed with both Fruits yet he considers himself an Angel.

The Fruit of Knowledge is something that all humans possess, which enables them to think and reason (it's implied to be the brain). So, it's pretty likely Kaworu gets the Fruit of Knowledge when he gets a human body.

That could fit the theory of a "Fifth Adam" (First Angel) that is Kaworu's soul. It's possible Kaworu couldn't become aware about the loop until he gets a human body and the Fruit of Knowledge.

[wiser3754]

You know what confuses me about Kaworu? Gendo states that Lilin are blessed with the fruit of knowledge and the Angel's the Fruit of life.

Does anyone find a paradox with Kaworu being both eternal and having knowledge of the past? Not to mention able to play a piano, read and write into the Book of Life and pilot an Eva?

Sounds like Kaworu has been blessed with both Fruits yet he considers himself an Angel.

The Fruit of Knowledge is something that all humans possess, which enables them to think and reason (it's implied to be the brain). So, it's pretty likely Kaworu gets the Fruit of Knowledge when he gets a human body.

That could fit the idea of a "Fifth Adam" (First Angel), which is Kaworu's soul. It's possible Kaworu couldn't become aware about the loop until he gets a human body and the Fruit of Knowledge.

A "Fifth Adam"? Despite the DSS Choker which was designed in fear of him, acknowledging him as the 13th Angel with a blue wave pattern? No.

That Fifth Adam according to the Dead Sea Scrolls is Nerv's mirror of God (Unit 13) with the Opfer types as the
4 Adam's vessels using the winged NHG series warships as amplifiers for their role.

[Raikyu]

I think he meant that Kaworu is the reincarnation of the Fifth Adams, just like he is Adam's reincarnation in the original show.

The body must be Eva-13, but the soul is inside Kaworu. It makes sense considering that that unit lacks an AT-Field.

[DantesInferno]

I definitely second the idea that the "physical location" of fruit of knowledge in the lilim is the brain. Not only is it the obvious candidate in terms of function, but there is a lot of talk about humans giving up the FoK in exchange for getting the FoL, and the one defining feature of the infinities (whether it's the red failures in Q/Shin or "actuals" in Shin, i.e. the "Rei bodies" and white/purple-core evas) is the lack of a head.

It is possible that Kaworu is (a) god in that sense; i.e. having both fruits, and that does not negate him being an angel nonetheless (by extension).

And yeah, his "downfall" from 1st to 13th is a total mystery, both the how (cosmology-wise) and the why (plot-wise).

I think he meant that Kaworu is the reincarnation of the Fifth Adams, just like he is Adam's reincarnation in the original show.
The body must be Eva-13, but the soul is inside Kaworu. It makes sense considering that that unit lacks an AT-Field.

Whoa, that makes a lot of sense re: Eva-13's lack of AT-Field. The way you worded it earily parallels how Kaworu himself refers to Rei-Q ("her soul is somewhere else"), that time likely being Lilith's soul that is being discussed.

[Konja7]

A "Fifth Adam"? Despite the DSS Choker which was designed in fear of him, acknowledging him as the 13th Angel with a blue wave pattern? No.

That Fifth Adam according to the Dead Sea Scrolls is Nerv's mirror of God (Unit 13) with the Opfer types as the
4 Adam's vessels using the winged NHG series warships as amplifiers for their role.

I mean the theory that Kaworu has the soul of the "Fifth Adam"/First Angel in Rebuild. In the same way that Kaworu has the soul of Adam in the original show.

The body of the "Fifth Adam"/Fist Angel could still be Eva-13.


PS: That said, I wonder what is Mark-06.

[DantesInferno]

Maybe he can learn knowledge already discovered, but can't create knowledge.

In NGE, he praises the lilim for the invention of music, which he himself can certainly appreciate and adopt.

In prticular Beethoven's 9th Symphony, which would eventually turn into his de facto "sh*t, I'm going to die!" theme

[XxEleonxx]

When Shinji talks with Kaworu during instrumentality, I felt, They kinda implied that Shinji and Kaworu where the same person (maybe nge Shinji?). Shinji says I need to destroy your eva and unit 13 too. Implying Eva 1 is Kaworus?. at the 2:14 time he says Our names have been writen in the book of life and Kaworu goes to say "I am you. I am like you. Thats why I was attracted to you wanted to give you happiness". And then Shinji says that Kaworu was just like Gendo thats why he piloted the eva. (In the show Shinji had this thing about not running away until the end. and on Gendos last moments on EoE he said something along the lines of " I ran away from Shinji" and then gets eaten.) After that scene he gets the reconection with Kaji that we learned he was comanding, but, Kaji and Shinji always had a kinda father/son relationship and during both Show and Movies they bonded through the Melon patch and that was Kaworus final moments in 3.0+1.0 being told by Kaji to bond in the watermelon patch. And in 1.11 I beleive Kaworu calls Gendo father, "nice to meet you Father" . So might be, what do you guys think?.