So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Rei IV » Fri May 04, 2018 3:52 pm

View Original PostACGT-Samael wrote:Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if Ritsuko being so blindsided was just a product of her mental state, and possibly a misestimation of where Naoko's loyalty would lie.

But why would Naoko, if there's any self-awareness in the MAGI, have loyalty to Gendo when her last memories before her death (via suicide) is killing the original Rei after she revealed that Gendo had been using her all that time and called her an old hag. Why would she would be loyal? It stands to reason, as Reichu pointed out, she'd be in a position to be even more ANGRY with Gendo (and probably allow NERV HQ to blow up). It makes a lot more sense that what happened was Ritsuko's own blunder and undoing. I think Reichu was spot on in this post, which had I known existed, would've never created this thread and have saved space on these forums not asking these bogus questions.

View Original PostReichu wrote:On an intellectual level, I'm sure Ritsuko understands what is really going with Gendo and Rei -- she breezily exhibits this kind of knowledge in the early episodes -- but the end-series emotional reality is much different and she has no way to cope. She's never really evolved past the mindset of competing with her mother for pretty much everything, and this includes "competition" for a sexual interest (relationship with older man = Ritsuko's way of filling the giant Dad-shaped void in her psyche). With her mom gone, Ritsuko is becoming her mom, and Rei is, in her distorted world-view, taking the place where Ritsuko had once been. Of course, she reasons, Gendo wants to fuck Rei -- he replaced my mom with me, didn't he? In essence, Ritchan is violently unloading her own insecurities onto everything else. You can see just how unhinged she is by EoE, where she believes with complete sincerity that Casper declined the self-destruct because it is actually her mom doing loathsomely mom-like things ("you chose your lover over your own daughter!"). The rational part of her mind that would know that the MAGI were specifically designed to make intelligent and rational decisions (which blowing up Nerv HQ to spite your ex-lover decidedly IS NOT) is... well, it's gone on vacation.


Ritsuko is so caught my with her underlying fears and paranoia, she snaps and shows she's no longer that rational, pragmatic, critical thinker, with (again, like Reichu mentioned) with adherence to science and logic. What happened in towards the end of Air (Episode 25') probably was the result of her earlier tinkering before the JSDF invaded. Ritsuko raises some eyebrows with her demeanor: Specifically how says how she'll see her mother soon. It's safe to say her mind was wasn't in the right place when she did whatever she did to the MAGI and was more preoccupied with dying (via suicide/blowing up NERV).
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Fri May 04, 2018 9:00 pm

I have a question, and I'm not sure if it fits entirely here, but the MAGI in HERV HQ were mentioned to be unique. Could it be that maybe Naoko's soul was grafted to it after her suicide by Gendo or Fuyutsuki? I mean, we are talking about the MAGI, specifically MAGI-01 in Tokyo-3 being self aware, perhaps this theory could explain that.
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby neongenesisvandelay » Sun May 06, 2018 4:49 pm

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:I have a question, and I'm not sure if it fits entirely here, but the MAGI in HERV HQ were mentioned to be unique. Could it be that maybe Naoko's soul was grafted to it after her suicide by Gendo or Fuyutsuki? I mean, we are talking about the MAGI, specifically MAGI-01 in Tokyo-3 being self aware, perhaps this theory could explain that.


Interesting theory; knowing that Naoko partially implemented her conscious into the MAGI, at the very least she's apart of it in some capacity (likely with Gendo/Fuyutski's aide). It's possible her soul may be an extension of her thought process, though I'm not sure that's an intentional aspect or decision made by the two. Right now, the only specific Gendo or Fuyutski moments I can think of associated with both the MAGI and Naoko are in episode 21, may give it a rewatch and see if I can pick up anything new.
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Reichu » Sun May 06, 2018 5:24 pm

DarkBluePhoenix wrote:the MAGI in HERV HQ were mentioned to be unique.

I assume you're thinking of this?
Episode 25' wrote:HYUGA:
They've destroyed everything else,
why don't they just nuke us and get it over with?!

AOBA:
If we weren't sitting on top of the original MAGI system,
they probably would have.

HYUGA:
They probably need it in as intact as they can get it.

Naoko's Magi seem to be the first of their kind, but the principle behind their creation can't be much of a secret, since several other Magi systems were created in the time since. So just the fact that they're originals can't be what gives them true value here. Under these specific circumstances, we have Nerv's personnel fighting the JSSDF, with neither side knowing that they're pawns in competing versions of 3I. The Magi would probably be considered valuable because both (A) they're the central nervous system of Nerv HQ, so if you control the Magi you control Nerv HQ; and (B) I mean... just imagine the sheer quantity of tasty information contained within them. The initial hacking attempt was a (seemingly) non-violent means of achieving both of these goals without sending armed forces in. Seele themselves can't be too interested in the Magi's data banks, given they're ready and willing to have their servants of the apocalypse dropped in on a whim. But the Japanese government was roped into believing that Nerv HQ are the true villains, so you can bet they want to know what Nerv's been up to.

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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Sachi » Sun May 06, 2018 5:45 pm

Naoko was bragging about the MAGI and how it works before her death; there's nothing to suggest her death changed or added anything to affect how the MAGI works. They didn't implant her soul into it after the fact, and there's no way for her to be anymore "self-aware" because each part is nothing more than a reflection of aspects of her personality. Again, the MAGI was fully functioning before her death and there's no reason to believe it gained anymore functionality after her death.

The Tokyo-03 MAGI is unique because it's the original MAGI, and has all of Naoko's original notes.
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sun May 06, 2018 8:03 pm

^They're really after all those post-it notes left inside. :lol:
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Sun May 06, 2018 8:06 pm

Sachi wrote:Naoko was bragging about the MAGI and how it works before her death; there's nothing to suggest her death changed or added anything to affect how the MAGI works. They didn't implant her soul into it after the fact, and there's no way for her to be anymore "self-aware" because each part is nothing more than a reflection of aspects of her personality. Again, the MAGI was fully functioning before her death and there's no reason to believe it gained anymore functionality after her death.

The Tokyo-03 MAGI is unique because it's the original MAGI, and has all of Naoko's original notes.


Well, it wouldn't have been put in all three, maybe it was only grafted into one. But there had to be something unique beyond the notes plastered inside of it. SEELE took great care at not destroying the system in EoE when they were taking NERV HQ. They could have been shot and damaged and the notes would have still been viable, but there must be something about MAGI-01 that is unique to warrant the Command Center not being taken with more force. Even damaged or disabled MAGI can be used to gather most of the data on their drives. With Casper having rejected Ritsuko order to self-destruct, which I would assume was a program written for the MAGI to automatically and unanimously approve, its refusal could be insinuated as there is something special or unique about Casper, which denied Ritsuko's order, much to her shock. Or a portion of her soul was grafted by mistake during their creation, as a side effect of the consciousness coping whathaveyou.

@Reichu, yes that was the scene I was referring to.
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby Sachi » Sun May 06, 2018 8:28 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:^They're really after all those post-it notes left inside. :lol:

Maya was rather amazed at all the secrets contained by the notes, and her entire job revolves around using the MAGI!

View Original PostDarkBluePhoenix wrote:Well, it wouldn't have been put in all three, maybe it was only grafted into one.

Why though? Why should we believe the MAGI is any different after Naoko's death? There's no suggestion of it whatsoever. She completed the MAGI before she died, and then she died. You have to invent all sorts of new details if you want to believe Naoko had her soul added to the MAGI after her death, or that any one of the three supercomputers has more of her in it.
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Re: So was Ritsuko REALLY off her rockers in EOE?

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Postby DarkBluePhoenix » Tue May 08, 2018 12:50 am

View Original PostSachi wrote:Why though? Why should we believe the MAGI is any different after Naoko's death? There's no suggestion of it whatsoever. She completed the MAGI before she died, and then she died. You have to invent all sorts of new details if you want to believe Naoko had her soul added to the MAGI after her death, or that any one of the three supercomputers has more of her in it.

Well, as mentioned in another thread, the tidbit about the EVA's Cores maybe using the same technology to implant souls that was used to copy the consciousness of Naoko and the other "Donors"in the various MAGI was left unexplored. Perhaps Misato was onto something when she said it, or she could have been entirely wrong. Still, if it was an accidental graft of a portion of her soul (which could have happened) as opposed to an explicit soul transfer (which is highly unlikely, I know), would that make a difference in how the MAGI operate? I would think it does because there would be a bit more "human spirit" trapped inside the machine.

Still, I can post this theory in the fan theories thread because there isn't hard proof, just supposition on my part.
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