Comic Books!

Yeah. You read right. This is for everything that doesn't have anything to do with Eva.

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Ray
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Comic Books!

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Postby Ray » Mon May 02, 2016 4:32 pm

A colorist auditioning for DC plays devils advocate for Frank Millers modern artwork, and how modern colorists for DC just don't do the art justice.

http://harveyjames.tumblr.com/post/1437 ... ood-but-dc
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Re: Comic Books?

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Postby Bagheera » Mon May 02, 2016 6:11 pm

It would seem Tumblr disagrees with you.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Ray
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Postby Ray » Mon May 02, 2016 6:31 pm

It seems the artist has removed the post.
I decided to set that Frank Miller post to private. I wrote the post as a defence of Frank’s recent drawings and an argument for why one colouring approach suits his work better than another, but it was pointed out to me that it looked as if I was criticising the work of those other colourists specifically, and how would I feel if that was my work? Well, I wouldn’t feel good about it, that’s for sure. My bad. Regardless of whether or not I think it’s the right approach for Frank’s inks, I could never do what those guys do- I’m not even sure HOW it’s done- and they’re in work because they have a very specialised skill few people are able to replicate.

It’s been pointed out to me that Frank chose his own colourists on the DKIII project. So for this and other reasons I regret that clickbaity headline- “DC Don’t Know What To Do With His Work”. DC aren’t a monolithic entity! I knew that. They’re a company, comprised of a collection of people all with their own points of view.
Making the transition from rando dude with a blog to industry professional is often a game of knowing where the appropriateness line is and knowing what side of it to be on in any given circumstance, and as a person with a lot of opinions and Stuff To Say that line can often get away from you. So there you go. Now I’m going to get on with making comics.


Edit: I managed to pull a screencap before he pulled it.


How he would've colored Millers art, vs how DC actually colored Millers art.
SPOILER: Show
Image


TLDR? Realistic colours and shading doesn't work well with Frank Miller’s more modern artwork. Coloring his work in with brighter more 1960's silver age or popart style of coloring would suit it better than modern colorists who seem to want to apply realistic shading to Millers art which makes his work look like deformed subhuman beasts.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Re: Comic Books?

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Postby Bagheera » Tue May 03, 2016 2:40 am

View Original PostRay wrote:It seems the artist has removed the post.


That was smart of him, particularly if he's hoping for a future in the industry.

TLDR? Realistic colours and shading doesn't work well with Frank Miller’s more modern artwork. Coloring his work in with brighter more 1960's silver age or popart style of coloring would suit it better than modern colorists who seem to want to apply realistic shading to Millers art which makes his work look like deformed subhuman beasts.


That has nothing to do with the coloring and everything to do with the actual art. Miller did that on purpose, which is probably why he chose colorists who would bring that out. Saying "oh yeah, my way's totally better, and DC, Miller, and the colorists he chose are all idiots if they think otherwise" is the height of hubris and, surprise, totally subjective. Personally I'm not terribly impressed (though it's Miller art so that's not saying much).
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Comic Books?

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Postby movieartman » Tue May 03, 2016 7:51 am

Gorgeous preview for Wonder Woman Rebirth.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/comic ... omics-2016

Ray
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Re: Comic Books?

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Postby Ray » Tue May 03, 2016 1:25 pm

Hr unprivatized the post and put up a disclaimer in it to hopefully keep the damage toned down.

http://harveyjames.tumblr.com/post/1437 ... ood-but-it
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

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Re: Comic Books?

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Postby Bagheera » Tue May 03, 2016 2:19 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Hr unprivatized the post and put up a disclaimer in it to hopefully keep the damage toned down.

http://harveyjames.tumblr.com/post/1437 ... ood-but-it


Sometimes, I think he has a point. Other times, it looks like he's trying too hard to lock Miller into the Sin City mode of approaching things, which can result in work that looks poorer than what he's supposedly improving upon. It's hit or miss, basically, same as Miller's art these days. And the whole "I'm not saying X is bad, but Miller's work is just fine and would look great with the right colorist!" bit seems a tad disingenuous. I wouldn't have made that post, personally, at least not unless I was really well-established in the industry at the time. Lynn Varley might be able to get away with something like that, but this guy? Not so much.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Comic Books?

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Tue May 03, 2016 3:23 pm

Critique is a tremendous part of the arts, much more so than many other industries. Speaking as someone who has a deep family background in entertainment, that commentary is the kind of post that I believe should be encouraged, not disparaged. Style is something that varies incredibly among artists, something apparent from looking at Frank Miller's art regardless of coloration! To see this artist taking his own flavor of coloration to Frank Miller's art is exactly the kind of thing that breeds excitement and new talent in movies and graphic novels.

People don't need to be well-established to be able to write an opinion piece on something, nor necessarily as credentialed to give their own take on artwork or coloration. (And speaking personally, I rather like the new colors.)

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Postby Bagheera » Tue May 03, 2016 3:39 pm

Expressing different styles is fine (and good, even), but there's such a thing as overselling the point. IMO that's what happened here (though it wasn't nearly as bad as it first appeared).
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Blue Monday » Tue May 03, 2016 6:03 pm

Bloody awesome news coming out of the Valiant camp today and pretty exciting times to be a reader. New Harbinger and New Shadowman coming soon, which I'm absolutely stoked about: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/05/03/ ... shadowman/

Psi-Lords series spinning out of 4001 AD: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/05/03/ ... rtainment/

A title called Britannia: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/05/03/ ... britannia/

Savage, which seems to be the oft rumoured analogue of Turok the Dinosaur Hunter (much like Divinity is analogous of Solar from the original Valiant of the 90s): http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/05/03/ ... rtainment/
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Re: Comic Books?

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Postby NemZ » Wed May 04, 2016 2:08 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Hr unprivatized the post and put up a disclaimer in it to hopefully keep the damage toned down.


The guy definitely has a point. I don't think the first image is the best example (background too busy), but in general it does work much better when the colorist isn't trying too hard to 'make up for' the art and rather embraces it. The original DKR handled it best overall, with subtle shading that added to the inks while still embracing the blocky flatness it was presented with rather than trying to blend a square into a curve.

DKR2 had bigger problems though than just the coloring. It took far too much of the focus off of Batman himself... in all honest Carrie and Supes felt like the actual protags there, and Bats was barely at the level of guest star half the time. Just look how much more focus Plastic Man gets than Green Lantern did in the original, for example. It was also pretty much tone-deaf politically, making almost none of the social commentary that the original did and relying far too heavily on the 'talking heads' shtick to carry pages while saying nothing much of interest. the original had a subplot in those news clips culminating in the Joker's return, while DKR2 is just soundbites of people trying to upsell the nonsense we see as being far more important and interesting than it actually is. Even a more appropriate coloring treatment can't fix the core of that book when it's this broken.



In other news I recently finished The Filth and still don't know what to make of it. Yes you're playing with scales of time and space and litterally entering a comic book and escaping off the page, but what is the point of that, exactly? I can kinda see connections to Flex Mentallo and The Invisibles, sure, but they did so much more with the idea than they do here that it ends as a really hollow effort. I'm disappointed to end the 'trilogy' on this note.

Chuck, feel free to tell me why I'm wrong.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
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Postby StarShaper7 » Wed May 04, 2016 3:43 am

I like Sarah Horrocks' response to that James Harvey post:

I was with this until it got to the point of saying that DK2 should have been colored differently. Varley’s colors on that are actually a great way to approach Miller’s current style, but Varley is so far ahead of the game in terms of colorists and fans, some people mistake that book for not being like…godhead coloring. She’s equal partner on that book, and her abstraction is riffing on his. It’s beautiful. She presaged the glitch art fad by like…a decade. You flew too close to the sun.

Also the wonder woman pages where it’s just one single color, aren’t improvements.

The general problem with the critical opinion on the newest Frank Miller cover art is that there is a confusion with bad as in unskilled, and ugly as in the artist not trying to make something beautiful. The covers are grotesque in their form, intentionally so. But people in comics can only view things in terms of their idea of anatomical perfection, and are incapable of processing comic artists who don’t care about that. Or are incapable of processing strong feelings of revulsion in art, as something worth thinking about in terms of themselves, before they project that the artist is at a deficit. Which part of the merit of stripping Miller down is that it makes the image more basic, so that the audience can process it easier. But that makes sense up to a point. When you’re using that approach to toss out the complexity of Lynn Varley’s work on DK2, you’ve taken the idea too far. Sometimes you just have to let a thing exist, and allow for the fact that comics have a lot of babies with no eyes, who pass off blindness as authority when it comes to visual art.

http://mercurialblonde.tumblr.com/


Also, it's cool to see that this thread has reached 100 pages. The title of the next installment should be "Comic Books!"

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Postby NemZ » Wed May 04, 2016 5:09 am

Sounds good to me. Done.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
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Postby Blue Monday » Wed May 04, 2016 6:01 am

NemZ, you should definitely read The Nameless by Morrison. It's only six issues and it's my favourite thing he's ever done outside of superheroes.

COMMENCE RITUAL PROTECTION  SPOILER: Show
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Postby Bagheera » Wed May 04, 2016 7:09 am

View Original PostStarShaper7 wrote:I like Sarah Horrocks' response to that James Harvey post:


Yes yes yes YES!!! She absolutely nailed it. This is a really good explanation of why critique shouldn't necessarily be accepted, well, uncritically. Sometimes criticism makes good points, but sometimes it's based on hubris and/or ignorance. Critique the critique!
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Comic Books!

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Postby NemZ » Wed May 04, 2016 8:31 am

View Original PostBlue Monday wrote:NemZ, you should definitely read The Nameless by Morrison. It's only six issues and it's my favourite thing he's ever done outside of superheroes.


I'm actually not that much into cape books unless it's meta, so that's a plus. If I see a collected volume I'll pick it up, but I don't do single issues anymore. Too much hassle to store and not enough to chew on in a single sitting.

As for the critique of the critique... doing things 'before they are popular' is just a hipster excuse for doing something that isn't well liked, and making iconic superheroes intentionally ugly is just mocking the fanbase so of course it won't be received well. double fail.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

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Re: Comic Books!

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Postby StarShaper7 » Wed May 04, 2016 9:38 pm

But the coloring is still exemplary and innovative. Lynn Varley is a very talented colorist and engaged in the creative process in the style she wanted to. Most people happen to dislike it, but apparently some are looking back and finding something of value. And we're seeing the influence it had on other artists. Most Kubrick films fall into a similar position. How is it a "hipster excuse" if there is genuinely something of worth to be found by looking back and reevaluating?

There are obviously other reasons for depicting iconic images in an "ugly" or unidealized way. I would hope that the audience would ask "why was this drawn like this, what is the artist trying to say?" instead of blasting shit over someone not drawing stuff the way they want her to. Why does what the "fandom" think matter so much? Sure, sales and shit, but adhering to "what people like" is neutering the creative process. Any artist who has a speck of creative vision will be more concerned with doing something meaningful and personally expressive with their art, rather than anxiously stressing over pleasing some group of so-called fans whose views on art are pretty limited. If the two happen to coincide, cool. And if they don't, then so be it. If someone wants to think outside the sterilized box of corporate/groupthink-approved creative conventions, I wholeheartedly encourage it.

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Re: Comic Books!

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Postby Chuckman » Wed May 04, 2016 11:35 pm

I will continue to break my own rule about psychoanalyzing artists through their work and say that Frank Miller draws ugly shit because living in New York City (culminating in a very close view of 9/11) melted his brain and the stark, sharp lines and exaggerated ugliness and uncanny valley features of his later work reflect that. Hence all men being brutish hypersexual apes and all women being strange angular creatures that are either ethereal, sexless, and flat chested or whores/strippers.

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Re: Comic Books!

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Postby Bagheera » Thu May 05, 2016 12:21 am

View Original PostStarShaper7 wrote:There are obviously other reasons for depicting iconic images in an "ugly" or unidealized way. I would hope that the audience would ask "why was this drawn like this, what is the artist trying to say?" instead of blasting shit over someone not drawing stuff the way they want her to. Why does what the "fandom" think matter so much? Sure, sales and shit, but adhering to "what people like" is neutering the creative process. Any artist who has a speck of creative vision will be more concerned with doing something meaningful and personally expressive with their art, rather than anxiously stressing over pleasing some group of so-called fans whose views on art are pretty limited. If the two happen to coincide, cool. And if they don't, then so be it. If someone wants to think outside the sterilized box of corporate/groupthink-approved creative conventions, I wholeheartedly encourage it.


Yup, gotta agree with this.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Re: Comic Books!

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Postby movieartman » Thu May 05, 2016 12:32 am

Speaking of Miller.
On TDK3.
Wow no idea how they get out of this situation now.
I thought this would be the old Justice League teaming up against the Kandorian Cult, but it's just Bruce, Carrie and perhaps Aquaman against hundreds of suicidally power mad Kryptonians.
I like what they have done with Yindel.
Miller's art in the Batgirl focused back up story of the most recent issue was horrific... except for one very cool close up of Aquaman's face.


15 issues in and I had to take a break from Waid's Irredeemable as it was depressing the fuck out of me.


Going back and reading the 2 Volumes of Wolverine inbetween Wolverine goes to hell and The Death of Wolverine.
Forgot how much I love Alan Davis when he is on point which he was there.


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