Is Shinji evil?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Ray » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:26 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:But not in isolation. Shinji represents bad tendencies in us, the viewers, to demonstrate how these tendencies can bring us down, and to encourage us to see how we can attempt to counter them.


The mistakes of the average human being don't kill off the human race. Furthermore, when every choice is a bad choice how can you honestly counter them?

Any arguments about whether or not a character is meant to be seen as 'good or evil', portrayed positive or negative representation of the audiences bad tendencies tends to be made utterly insignificant when the character is for all intents and purposes singlehandedly guilty of mass destruction.

When the consequences of a human action is multiplied to an apocalyptic level. It ruins or muddles the whole message. The average person can overcome their problems, addictions and connect with others because he lives in the real world, where small actions have small consequences. The average persons problems don't result in billions of people dying because he makes one bad choice.

So we should never mess up at all because the second we do mess up the world will end and everyone else will hate us forever for it? That's a Space whale Aesop, inconsequential when applied to improving the actions and behavior of real people in the REAL WORLD.

If Shinji had never piloted the robot, and just been another average kid with an asshole father and a dead mom. His actions would have never done harm to anyone but himself and those in his community. In time he'd have either gotten over his issues and learned to connect with others through trial and error that would only effect him and those around him. Or he'd have not even tried and become a selfish introverted asshole like his father.

But thanks to those giant robots, the Trial and Error has apocalyptic consequences. So he was better off being a selfish introverted asshole who never even tried to connect with others to begin with, because all his actions good or ill intent can do is cause destruction and misery for everyone else. Not just the people around him, but everyone, everywhere, on planet earth.

Gendo In EOE wrote:Whenever I'm around Shinji all I do is cause him pain. So I thought it was better if I did nothing at all.


Shinji in EOE wrote: I'm incapable of doing anything good for anybody else! I did something terrible! I killed Kaworu! I'm a horrible person. I'm dishonest and a coward! All I ever do is hurt people. So It's better I do nothing at all!


Misato in Q seems to agree with EOE Shinji.

Misato in Q wrote:From now on you won't be doing anything



Ispellnogood wrote:The position of cool and badass guy who has renouced the world is filled by the hairy scrotum known as Gendo.


and who is Gendo but Shinji all grown up? Better to be a Lion than a Sheep. Better to be a killer than a victim of violence. Better to be the cruelest, unempathizing, and most selfish person in a world that outright refuses to genuinely be kind and empathize with you and not just use you to fufill their own selfish ends.

At least that's Gendo's logic. and Shinji's if he ever became evil.

I don't want Shinji to be evil. But if you only had a choice between one or the other would you rather be a Slave? Or one who enslaves? You can be a slave, and still keep your soul. Or a Slaver and not have to suffer under the whip of others.[/quote]
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Postby pwhodges » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:44 am

View Original PostRay wrote:The mistakes of the average human being don't kill off the human race. Furthermore, when every choice is a bad choice how can you honestly counter them?

You are being too literal. The entire story is a metaphor for the human condition. Destroying the world merely represents destroying your world, and people are indeed capable of mistakes and behaviour that does that for them, and possibly for those around them. They may also, if strong enough, and with the right guidance, be able to make amends. That's in the real world, and the Evangelion stories (when complete, which this one isn't) provide encouragement for people who feel trapped like Shinji to seek a way forward.
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Postby NemZ » Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:38 pm

Bags vs. Stillborn tangent removed, along with a "this topic is over" comment from Gendo's Papa.

Let's raise the bar a little, folks.
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Postby Lennik » Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:11 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:If Shinji had never piloted the robot, and just been another average kid with an asshole father and a dead mom. His actions would have never done harm to anyone but himself and those in his community. In time he'd have either gotten over his issues and learned to connect with others through trial and error that would only effect him and those around him. Or he'd have not even tried and become a selfish introverted asshole like his father.

But thanks to those giant robots, the Trial and Error has apocalyptic consequences. So he was better off being a selfish introverted asshole who never even tried to connect with others to begin with, because all his actions good or ill intent can do is cause destruction and misery for everyone else. Not just the people around him, but everyone, everywhere, on planet earth.


No, because if Shinji had never piloted, any of the angels he killed would have instead destroyed all of humanity. Even if he had only stayed away from the Zeruel fight, Third Impact would have happened. The only way he could have saved humanity in that battle would be if he had had the knowledge to shut Unit 01 down immediately after killing the angel, but seeing as there was no way he could know how to do that, we can discount that as a possibility.

N3I was, when we strip it down to the barest necessaries, the best possible outcome of that fight. If Shinji had done nothing at all, Zeruel would have wiped everyone out. Furthermore, if Shinji hadn't come back when he did in 3.0, Asuka could very well have died. Shinji can and does do some very heroic things in these movies.

So it should be very obvious that the answer is not for Shinj to passively do nothing. The answer is for him to stop being reckless and impatient.

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Postby Sgt. Griff » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:18 pm

View Original PostLennik wrote:N3I was, when we strip it down to the barest necessaries, the best possible outcome of that fight. If Shinji had done nothing at all, Zeruel would have wiped everyone out. Furthermore, if Shinji hadn't come back when he did in 3.0, Asuka could very well have died. Shinji can and does do some very heroic things in these movies.


Although given that this isn't the same continuity as NGE and doesn't follow the same rules, after Zeruel had killed the NERV staff or whatever might've happened, would he have actually been able to trigger third impact?

We never see an alternate outcome, what could have been, for better or worse, and so we judge Shinji based on the actions he took, and the mind he took them in. With this as the case, given that Shinji appeared to have simply been a catalyst for what followed (were those actions leading up to 3I Unit 01's, either by its own volition or simply interpreting Shinji's wish in its own way), then he's as liable for third impact as a trigger is for shooting a person; yes he was the cause and the instrument, but his morality at the very least shouldn't be called into question for things that somebody else did (in this case Yui/Unit 01).
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Postby pwhodges » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:59 pm

View Original PostSgt. Griff wrote:he's as liable for third impact as a trigger is for shooting a person; yes he was the cause and the instrument, but his morality at the very least shouldn't be called into question for things that somebody else did (in this case Yui/Unit 01).

Of course, I fully agree with you. But some people would prefer the trigger not to exist. I am put in mind of Wilfred Owen, the First-War poet, who wrote (abbreviated as Britten set the words in his War Requiem):

Be slowly lifted up, thou long black arm,
Great Gun towering towards Heaven, about to curse;
Reach at that Arrogance which needs thy harm,
And beat it down before its sins grow worse.
But when thy spell be cast complete and whole,
May God curse thee, and cut thee from our soul!

In that case, poor Shinji!
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Postby unitM » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:04 pm

(from pg2 onwards...)
pwhodges brings up an interesting point that I had not considered at all: in the second movie, Ritsuko shouts to Shinji that if he proceeds further, he will lose his humanity. He does so anyways. She literally spells out danger to him and yet he proceeds further, undisturbed by the consequences of losing his humanity. I think this is pretty big - although we're left with ambiguity about what Ritsuko means, it certainly isn't anything towards the side of "team humanity"(depending on how this is viewed, the good side).

BlueBasilisk, Gendo is shown to calmly look at the awakened Eva 01 and state that it's now awakened. I don't remember if he states that it was his services that guided it to an awakened state. However, even Kaji states that it's awakened, and that SEELE won't be quiet about this. Higher intel must have at least known this was to occur. 

Also, I'm with Reichu in thinking that Sahaquiel and these two(01/13) incidents are different. It's not uncommon for units to change their equipments between fights. 01 raced across a wide landscape to catch Sachiel because Misato(or whoever was in command) outfitted Eva 01 with a piece of equipment that boosted it's speed to supersonic degrees. Nothing is mysterious about this boost of speed. On the other hand, 01 growing another translucent AT-field arm stands out. 13's eyes glowing red before berserking towards the spears(this could have been an equipment, issue is we don't know) stands out. 13 unveiling a 2nd set of arms, when throughout the Eva series, all units only have one set, is not only strange but disturbing.

I'd like to push attention back to the fact that Shinji literally tore off his piloting gear in his entry plug just so he could get closer to Rei(in the Sachiel fight). I don't think Shinji was in any way in a sober state of mind(or perhaps even body)

unz "feminine power of creation" is an interesting point I previously hadn't considered. However, I am not simply talking about his creation of a different being through sacrificing older life forms, as Kaworu described. I'm speaking more on behalf of the fact that Shinji killed Lilith, not just that he went overboard in Unit 01.

I'm with Bagheera(vs. Reichu): Shinji did not come off as inhuman to me in the third rebuild movie. Everything he did and was pushed into doing was from his point of view. From the very beginning we're given a picture of a young kid being bullied. Even so, he drove an Eva forward with Gendo's plans to reduce Lilith to a bloody mess. Inhumanity or not, the whole direction Shinji took was a mess. The very fact that Shinji willingly(he was not unwilling to do what he did, even if he was persuaded to do so) progressed Gendo's dark(relative to what we're shown in the movie) plans forward makes me believe that Shinji might have committed a great sin.

Rei IV, the core-diving event was a harsh one, but there are several indications that tell us that Shinji was not exactly in a sober state of mind when he went in for Rei. One indication: he literally tore off the piloting mechanism in his entry plug before jumping through. This directly tells us he was given "super-strength" of a sort. It's plausible that the sync ratio Shinji had with 01 gave him supernatural powers for the time being. His wish of "get out of my way; I'm saving Rei" was granted in various forms, even allowing him the metaphysical leap into an angel's soul. 

In any event, the activation of 13 was different. Whereas in 01, Shinji pushed his unit too far, in 13, his unit pushed Shinji too far(after the initial removal of the spears). 13 activated to help Shinji grab the spears, but everything after that was apparently the will of the unit. 13 bites into the Adam's Apple on it's own will. 13 shoots up into the sky on it's own accord. Shinji has no idea what the Doors of Guf are, and yet they are opened. Shinji didn't even deactivate the unit - Kaworu did. This all out there, the black cape is thrown around Shinji. 

The Cruel, I think calling Shinji evil is very appropriate. Not only does one of the characters who has the widest outlook on the setting(Kaworu) tell Shinji that Shinji has sinned(though he also mentions any sin is forgivable(although this is before the death of Kaworu and Lilith)), Kaworu also tells Shinji that even though Shinji may not like the outcome of his actions, his will will float around the world for eternity. Coupled with the fact that both Kaworu(who works for SEELE, and at some level probably wanted to forward the plans of removing the spears from Lilith) and Asuka were telling him to stop what he was doing, while he pressed forward... I don't think it's unsafe to say that Shinji committed some evil deeds, even if they were for someone else like his dad. Through Kaworu's words, Shinji sinned(he directly says sinned, and that was back in 01), and then after Shinji initiated Fourth Impact, Kaworu furthers the message of Shinji's sins floating around forever(this time without retribution).

(It looks like there were 2 more pages of replies after I edited OP so I will be sure to respond to them next, either in this edited post or in a new one, whichever is more available)

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:17 pm

I would have to watch the movie again to be sure, but I'm not at all certain Shinji heard anything Ritsuko said at the end of Ha. She and the rest of the staff were no longer in the command center at the time, and there's no indication they were transmitting to him once outside.

Re: the Sahaquiel fight, I don't think that super speed was the result of specific equipment: IMO that was pure ATF voodoo.

Nitpicks aside, I find the notion of calling Shinji evil while at the same time noting that he was not in a sober state of mind to be a little bizarre; he's certainly responsible for his actions and their consequences, but "evil" suggests some sort of malicious intent, or a desire to do harmful things regardless of the consequences. This is not the sort of mindset we see in Shinji at any point in the movies. He always, always thinks he's helping. So, stubborn? Yes. Obstinate? Assuredly. Reckless? Yep. Foolish? Sadly so. But evil? I can't really see it.
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Postby Ispellnogood » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:31 am

Shinji represents bad tendencies in us, the viewers, to demonstrate how these tendencies can bring us down, and to encourage us to see how we can attempt to counter them.


I could buy that. A "don't be like this guy" kind of thing. He's still meant to be seen as something negative though. What you said there doesn't really work unless he's seen as negative.


If that were true, EoE would have ended with him realizing he's a problem and going away, but that's not what happened.It ended with him accepting himself and deciding to try to be happy.


It ended with "digusting". Which is probably what most viewers think of when pondering EoE-Shinji's portrayal.

I don't think that's a negative portrayal at all.


I think EoE-Shinji is one of the most negative portrayals i've ever seen, for a main character it's definitely THE MOST negative portrayal i've ever seen.

Ispellnogood wrote:
Condemning Shinji is what evangelions all about


No.



It isn't Shinji's fault it's Gendo's, Yui's, the situation, his age, the eva's, the poorly designed hospital gown.

We justify and make these excuses for Shinji because they're not there, and he needs them.


I think Anno does the opposite with Shinji. When it comes to Who's to blame? Who's at fault? Who's the problem? Who should be punished? Who sucks? It's clear and obvious to me which character Evangelion points it's finger at.


If EoE and the original TV ending are any indication, there's little reason to think Shinji won't find some kind of redemption at the end. Anno doesn't do straightforward downer endings.


It's because of those endings that I expect something frustrating and unsatisfying when it comes to Shinji getting some justice with Final (not a bullet kind of justice either).

I don't think it's going to be about redemption or vindication, I think final will be about acceptance, moving on and growing up. If you go on the tv ending, redemption is going to be a positive epiphany that comes in the last 10 seconds. Going on EoE, redemption is still a last minute epiphany, but like an obese mans penis, it's overwhelmingly burried under rolls and rolls of sweaty, negative fat.

My biggest fear is that Shinji will be written out with a whimper, never really doing anything good or awesome.

Second biggest fear for final is that it's an EoE clone. It would make Q seem like something Anno cooked up simply because he thought to many people missed or deny Shinji's responsibility for third impact in EoE.

I want Shinji to do something awesome, heroic and vindicating in Final. I want him to make up with the other characters. I want him to be redeemed as a character himself, but from looking at evangelion's past, I'm definitely not going to get my hopes up.


Well, no, he actually doesn't.



If a main characters portrayal walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you can't be too surprised when someone calls it Daffy or Donold. I'm going to go with Daisy, as it's in keeping with Evangelions Shinji ball-busting tradition.



I don't think Anno was ever under the impression that Gendo was "cool".



The stoic, unflinching man is a Japanese virtue. You've no doubt seen it before in other anime characters, and cool/badass/strong is definitely involved with them. Look at Q-Gendo, The "King of Lilin" has a scene with him framed with devil wings, if that isn't an anime cliche of cool then what is?

Stoic and cool badassity is intentionally involved with Gendo's character, it's probably one of the reasons people hate him. It's just as deliberate as "pretty boy" being involved in Kaworu's character.

That seems to be an entirely fan-made meme


Just like the reasons Shinji-haters hate on Shinji?


It still doesn't mesh with anything Anno's actually said on the topic.


It might not mesh with the writings of Anno-sama, but "Negative" fits really, really, REALLY well, when considering the unfortunate portrayal of Shinji in Evangelion.

If someone said "Shinji's portrayal in Evangelion was negative", it actually sounds like they're trying to be kind and merciful to the boy.

Saying it isn't negative because Anno-sama says it isn't is just :lol:

If we're talking about how he's meant to be viewed, creator statements on the matter are surely relevant?


Maybe. But if an anime creator said "the tit and nipple shots are not meant to be seen as fanservice, but are meant to desensitise viewers, so breastfeeding mothers can do it in public without people gawking", I'd still call it fanservice.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:12 am

Edit: Fuck it, I'm tired of this. There are just two observations to be made here:

1. If you're fighting for the survival of humanity you are probably not evil.

2. If you're afraid to deal with your own son (or, worse, are manipulating him into destroying humanity) you are probably not a badass.

That is all.
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Postby unz » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:58 am

Symbolism and stuff is confusing to feel Shinji's point of view, which is not an argument for the evulz, so you' ll have scenes like these
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udEk2oax6Tc
which moral says dealing with responsabilities leaves people behind, NGE suddenly comes up with the idea of Shinji and toji potential rivalry and makes tragedy out of it while Ha (and Q) rebuild has Shinji and Asuka playing a tragic love story (EoE in a nutshell if it wasn't for the ending). Everyone is a tragic hero in eva, they all make you realize positions and problematic behaviours but it makes the paper thin good hard earned and gives it a different taste to it. Picture Gendo evil if you want, he does play it to "sacrifice everything" other than Asuka through evangelion's function* and support his plan, but if you are debating stuff from Shinji's point of view this is a point of his growth as character into the right direction while he built enough relationships for Anno to "spend" in life lessons and realize how awful dad's position of missing yui is since it's something he may deal with in the future (Rei in Ha for example). Shinji doesn't and we get a bunch of lines to facepalm at, the usual "you don't understand" or "no time to explain" that is recurrent as a theme, but it's still more exposition than warning in that Shinji has to go through some steps to finally realize stuff.
Ofc Gendo also plays the bad example of one of the adults Shinji can grow up into, because of missing female figures and by extension the society of male control which ties evas into "armors" until they burst out of ambiguous subjectivity and all that, still not a great argument for limitative evul keys which don't read these guys actions very far.


*"evolution" according to kaworu, doesn't look different from nge to me.

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Postby Lennik » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:34 pm

View Original PostIspellnogood wrote:It ended with "digusting". Which is probably what most viewers think of when pondering EoE-Shinji's portrayal.


What "most viewers" probably think is not really relevant. You're suggesting Anno wrote Shinji to have his epiphany for no reason? And what's more, you think that Asuka's "how disgusting" is meant to cancel out the significance of that epiphany?

View Original PostIspellnogood wrote:I don't think it's going to be about redemption or vindication, I think final will be about acceptance, moving on and growing up. If you go on the tv ending, redemption is going to be a positive epiphany that comes in the last 10 seconds. Going on EoE, redemption is still a last minute epiphany, but like an obese mans penis, it's overwhelmingly burried under rolls and rolls of sweaty, negative fat.


So it doesn't count because it was preceded by tragedy?

View Original PostIspellnogood wrote:Second biggest fear for final is that it's an EoE clone. It would make Q seem like something Anno cooked up simply because he thought to many people missed or deny Shinji's responsibility for third impact in EoE.


Now it seems like you're suggesting Anno cares so much about fan opinions that he decided to make a whole new series of movies just to paint Shinji as a bad guy.

View Original PostIspellnogood wrote:The stoic, unflinching man is a Japanese virtue. You've no doubt seen it before in other anime characters, and cool/badass/strong is definitely involved with them. Look at Q-Gendo, The "King of Lilin" has a scene with him framed with devil wings, if that isn't an anime cliche of cool then what is?


Gendo isn't unflinching. He's so afraid of his child getting too close to him that he can't even bring himself to act like a halfway decent father, because he's too afraid of failure to accept his responsibility. And furthermore, he wants to cope with this by trying to re-unite himself with the dead. Gendo is the definition of a coward pretending not to care. We're not supposed to think he's cool, we're supposed to pity him. What's cool about that?

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Postby Sachi » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:48 pm

View Original PostLennik wrote:Gendo isn't unflinching. He's so afraid of his child getting too close to him that he can't even bring himself to act like a halfway decent father, because he's too afraid of failure to accept his responsibility. And furthermore, he wants to cope with this by trying to re-unite himself with the dead. Gendo is the definition of a coward pretending not to care. We're not supposed to think he's cool, we're supposed to pity him. What's cool about that?

You're describing a reveal that literally happens within the last minute of his screen time, at least for EoE. Yes, it changes the way his prior actions are perceived, but it's still important to recognize that for the vast majority of his screen time Gendo's character is undeniably portrayed as cold and unflinching.

EoTV never once portrays Gendo as the failed father too scared to become close with his son; he remains the cold, unflinching authority figure that even ends up being somewhat of the hero in the end.

As for Rebuild, Gendo definitely seems a bit more human in 2.0, only for it to be starkly contrasted with his even more cold and unflinching nature in Q, as with Rei II v Rei Q. Whether or not we'll see the sympathetic Gendo we met in EoE is yet to be seen, but as of now we cannot make any assumptions as it could go either way.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:33 pm

I remember one scene, I can't remember the episode, where Shinji and Gendo bump into one another while Shinji's riding the elevator or something. Gendo looks absolutely gobsmacked at the time -- he has no idea how to react, and is utterly paralyzed until the elevator doors closed. The fear he expresses in EoE does not come out of nowhere.
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I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

unz
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Postby unz » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:34 pm

I think gendo was compared to Shinji from either Misato or ritsuko as incomplete (both of them missing yui and stuff) but still gendo drives Shinji to face angels and grow a pair.
I want to find a dynamic to set a conflict that isn't "lolz angels" so we have gendo pushing Shinji to his death while yui enpowers him but I'm not sure about yui's predicament
Last edited by unz on Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:38 pm

View Original Postunz wrote:I think gendo was compared to Shinji from either Misato or ritsuko as incomplete (both of them missing yui and stuff) but still gendo drives Shinji to face angels and grow a pair


Shinji's balls are made of solid brass, and have been ever since he got into the fucking robot.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:53 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I remember one scene, I can't remember the episode, where Shinji and Gendo bump into one another while Shinji's riding the elevator or something. Gendo looks absolutely gobsmacked at the time -- he has no idea how to react, and is utterly paralyzed until the elevator doors closed. The fear he expresses in EoE does not come out of nowhere.


I think that's in episode 2 when Shinji is leaving the hospital wing. The door opens, the two of them stare awkwardly at each other, and the door closes again.
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Postby NemZ » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:55 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I remember one scene, I can't remember the episode, where Shinji and Gendo bump into one another while Shinji's riding the elevator or something. Gendo looks absolutely gobsmacked at the time -- he has no idea how to react, and is utterly paralyzed until the elevator doors closed. The fear he expresses in EoE does not come out of nowhere.


It's halfway into ep2, and he looks like he doesn't look 'gobsmacked' at all. He stares Shinji down until the doors close like he's looking at a bug on a pin.
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Postby unz » Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:00 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Shinji's balls are made of solid brass, and have been ever since he got into the fucking robot.


yeah when he has Shinji to choose between piloting eva or going home

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:04 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:It's halfway into ep2, and he looks like he doesn't look 'gobsmacked' at all. He stares Shinji down until the doors close like he's looking at a bug on a pin.


He's doing that to a kid, man. Do the math.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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