Kimochi warui

[qu4d]

Just one thing that I wanted to ask for years now, but just never did. I hope I don't repeat anything, but I'm asking because I never saw anybody mention this. And so I was wondering, if nobody ever saw that... which would be odd.

There were many debates on the final line "Kimochi warui" in End of Evangelion and what it means, how it's supposed to be translated and what she might be talking about. But don't we know that answer? Miyamura asked Anno...

Concerning the final line we adopted, I'm not sure whether I should say about it in fact. At last Anno asked me "Miyamura, just imagine you are sleeping in your bed and a stranger sneaks into your room. He can rape you anytime as you are asleep but he doesn't. Instead, he masturbates looking at you, when you wake up and know what he did to you. What do you think you would say?" I had been thinking he was a strange man, but at that moment I felt disgusting. So I told him that I thought "Disgusting". And then he sighed and said "... thought as much." He said. "I thought as much."

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Statements_by_ ... imeYAWA.29

And that's just what Shinji did. Shinji was next to her bed, could have done whatever he wanted, just watched her and masturbated. Like a bookend to the film... Asuka comments the first scene of the movie in the last scene of the movie.



Like I said, I always assumed that. Is that the case for anybody else? Just wondering

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

That’s an interpretation I think of when watching that film from time to time, but not every time. (Honestly that movie never results in me the same way twice in a row.) It can certainly be considered a valid interpretation since Asuka had already admitted to have been conscious to Shinji's masturbation during Third Impact itself. (“I even know all about your fantasies...”) People in comas have been known to hear other people,

Lately what’s been striking me a bit more often upon reviewing that scene is how it bookends with Shinji’s first Angel battle depicted in Episode 2. Like Unit 01 sitting on top of Sachiel in Tokyo III, Shinji sits on top of Asuka on a beach. Just as Unit 01 is trying to kill Sachiel, Shinji is trying to break through Asuka’s "A.T. Field” (Kaworu states that those are simply walls in the hearts of people in Episode 24) by choking her. But unlike Unit 01’s battle with Sachiel, Shinji can’t find it in himself to go on, ultimately still conflicted between the presence of the A.T. Field (which is what he chose) and the presence of others (which is what he can’t understand.) Asuka then mutters “How disgusting,” and we’re left to guess if that was also in some way a self-defense mechanism against Shinji, akin to Sachiel raising it’s hand back against Unit 01. Granted, one is certainly more flashy and action-oriented than the other, but the meanings and very basic positional blocking is still intact.

The ending filmed and choreographed in such a way that both interpretations can most certainly apply if one chose to interpret them as such.

[Firetrout]

Anno hasn't directly told Evangelion fans that, so people will continue to fanwank interpret differently.




Edited for the sake of Chuckman.

[Chuckman]

I hate the word "fanwank". The word you're looking for is "interpret".

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Well, Anno has encouraged people to find their own meaning in his show. The fact that he built his show to be more pliable in terms of meaning, especially in EoE, makes it one of my favorite works. It’s one of the few endings that makes me feel different every time I watch it.

[Wanderlust]

Just because an author had a certain meaning in mind while writing and directing a scene doesn't mean the end result will necessarily reflect that same meaning. Certainly not to every viewer, and especially not in a scene as abstract and ambiguous as the ending to EoE.

And like FFF4ever said, Anno actively encouraged people find their own meaning in his work. Most great artists take that same stance. Stanley Kubrick, for example, always refused to speak on the meaning of 2001: A Space Odyssey precisely because he knew that, the moment he did that, a lot of people would cease to think about it (and people thinking about it is the entire point). Here's an excerpt from the interview where he explains that stance:

You're free to speculate as you wish about the philosophical and allegorical meaning of the film, and such speculation is one indication that it has succeeded in gripping the audience at a deep level, but I don't want to spell out a verbal road map for 2001 that every viewer will feel obligated to pursue or else fear he's missed the point. How much would we appreciate La Gioconda [the Mona Lisa] today if Leonardo had written at the bottom of the canvas: This lady is smiling slightly because she has rotten teeth or because she's hiding a secret from her lover? It would shut off the viewer's appreciation and shackle him to a reality other than his own. I don't want that to happen to 2001.

[NemZ]

Asuka was sedated, not comatose. Totally different.

She might be talking about prior sessions, or perhaps she just knows because instrumentality. There's no indication she was aware of her surroundings at the time.

[Coldwire]

^ I agree. Although I'm more inclined to the idea that she always new he saw her that way, she is not referring only to that particular time in the train scene. And I do feel that the kimochi warui stuff is related to the hospital incident.

[Guy Nacks]

I think KW can be succinctly interpreted to encapsulate her feelings on pretty much all the events of the latter half of the film.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

^ But it more accurately describes the viewers' emotions to the last half of that film more times than not.

[Bagheera]

Asuka was sedated, not comatose. Totally different.

She might be talking about prior sessions, or perhaps she just knows because instrumentality. There's no indication she was aware of her surroundings at the time.

Just so on both counts.

Regarding the OP, I'm a bit confused because the "a-ha!" in question seems to be the obvious reading of Miyamura's quote. In fact, IIRC we've been puzzled in the past by the fact that that's the obvious reference given that so much had happened between that scene and the scene on the beach. So, why was that disgusting her (as opposed to everything else), why did she have an issue with it now when it was a side issue in Instrumentality, why did Anno choose the phrase his question in that particular way, etc.

[Guy Nacks]

Regarding the OP, I'm a bit confused because the "a-ha!" in question seems to be the obvious reading of Miyamura's quote. In fact, IIRC we've been puzzled in the past by the fact that that's the obvious reference given that so much had happened between that scene and the scene on the beach. So, why was that disgusting her (as opposed to everything else), why did she have an issue with it now when it was a side issue in Instrumentality, why did Anno choose the phrase his question in that particular way, etc.

Maybe because the act of masturbation is probably the most intensely animalistic/sexual/personal behavior there is and knowing that someone masturbated over you might be analogous to everyone blending into one being and knowing all the intimate details of other people that went along with Instrumentality. Maybe Anno was trying to connect the emotions that those two experiences would have on a person....especially Asuka.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

So, why was that disgusting her (as opposed to everything else), why did she have an issue with it now when it was a side issue in Instrumentality, why did Anno choose the phrase his question in that particular way, etc.

First of all, if the masturbation scene in the hospital is the thing that she's referencing with that line (as opposed to the thought of being choked by the likes of Shinji), then she may not really be disgusted in the first place. She might have been just responding to Shinji's last audible request in the hospital of berating him like she always did. With that interpretation, she's really lowering her AT Field, not raising it. (This could make sense because, as you said, she didn't mind so much the masturbation thing during Instrumentality, she just wanted a real relationship rather than merely being used by Shinji.)

Or she could be disgusted in the fact that Shinji broke Instrumentality. (Even though we've never seen her on board with the project.)

Or she could be that she's disgusted by idea do being choked by Shinji, which would be her raising her AT Field rather than lowering it. Or she could be disgusted that Shinji didn't even have the balls to choke her to death and stopped half way through it, even though he had the balls to finish climaxing himself in the hospital room.

See what I mean when I say the ending makes me think different hints each time?

[Merkaba]

Or she could be disgusted in the fact that Shinji broke Instrumentality. (Even though we've never seen her on board with the project.)

I agree with everything you've said, save for what I quoted above - I think the fact that she keeps repeating "I don't want to die!" coupled with her revelation of the "true power of the A.T. Field!" would put her in the anti-Instrumentality camp. I take those two things as her wanting to maintain her individuality.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Hence the parenthetical. There’s no evidence that she ever wanted Instrumentality. Even after she found out about it for the first time (by immersion, I guess) she seemed to dislike the activity of exploring the minds of others.

[NemZ]

I would think she was less bothered by exploring the minds of others then with the fact they were exploring hers. It's Arael's mindrape again, but this time the entire human species is running a train on her.

[Bagheera]

I would think she was less bothered by exploring the minds of others then with the fact they were exploring hers. It's Arael's mindrape again, but this time the entire human species is running a train on her.

Yep. And even apart from that, she has a far worse opinion of herself than anyone else does. The thought of them learning all of her dirty little secrets no doubt terrifies/humiliates her.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

^ And yet after being humiliated like that, she still manages to muster up a “disgusting” remark at the end.

Honestly, most of what we heard from Asuka during Instrumentality is more of an opinionated commentary on what other people are doing. Shinhi sees Misato having sex with Kaji, and we hear Asuka ask if she’ll being doing any of those dumb things as an adult as well. Later on she’s berating Shinji, and then just before we lose sight of her until the ending, we hear her being confused about dreams.

This isn’t to say that she isn’t being terrified or humiliated on the same level as her Angel battle in Episode 22 (or even worse), but that’s not the side of her that’s being projected to the others involved in Instrumentality.

Although she could be callous to the mind rape by this point. Or it could also be that she’s has the strength to withstand it upon finally discovering her mother for the first time since she went insane. (That last thought made me feel all warm inside, so it probably isn’t the case.)

But that look on her face on the beach certainly looks like she's been though some serious shit. “Disgusting" may have been a comment on the totality of what she’s seen during Instrumentality.

[Chuckman]

Yep. And even apart from that, she has a far worse opinion of herself than anyone else does. The thought of them learning all of her dirty little secrets no doubt terrifies/humiliates her.

We're not seeing the other side of the coin, here. Asuka saw everyone else's secrets. She saw that they don't really hate her, that the only thing putting her in danger of being discarded and shunned is herself, and that the very thing she put all her soul into to give her life was ultimately meaningless and would not get her the recognition she craved.

The inconclusive nature of her final lines only highlights that EoE is a reply to EoTV. Merely understanding one's problems does not automatically solve them.

She's disgusted by the realization that neither of them has really changed.

[Bagheera]

We're not seeing the other side of the coin, here. Asuka saw everyone else's secrets. She saw that they don't really hate her, that the only thing putting her in danger of being discarded and shunned is herself, and that the very thing she put all her soul into to give her life was ultimately meaningless and would not get her the recognition she craved.

Well, no, that's not true. She actually was shunned and discarded in a very meaningful way by Nerv, so that was anything but "all in her head". Her fears were right on the money in every way that counts. That's the big deal when it comes to Asuka: she was right. It's hard to deal with a fucked up kid when her paranoia is accurate.

The inconclusive nature of her final lines only highlights that EoE is a reply to EoTV. Merely understanding one's problems does not automatically solve them.

She's disgusted by the realization that neither of them has really changed.

Agreed here.