Everybody Hates Ritsuko

[NemZ]

I notice that, aside from people disliking the 'action arc' (which is probably more systematic of red/blue leanings than anything else), the individual episodes that people tend to dislike are 7, 13, 14 and my own suggestion of 21... which, incidentally, are all episodes that aren't focused on the children and which all feature more Ritsuko than usual.

Why do you all hate Ritsuko so much?

[Bagheera]

I notice that, aside from people disliking the 'action arc' (which is probably more systematic of red/blue leanings than anything else), the individual episodes that people tend to dislike are 7, 13, 14 and my own suggestion of 21... which, incidentally, are all episodes that aren't focused on the children and which all feature more Ritsuko than usual.

Why do you all hate Ritsuko so much?

Because she's never really properly developed as a sympathetic character, because she's fucking Gendo even though she knows full well he's fixated on Yui, and because she tried to nuke Nerv and everyone in it due to a lovers' quarrel. It's hard to like someone when she has no self respect and is more interested in getting even than in considering the consequences of her actions.

[Chuckman]

If you don't feel sympathy for Ritsuko you're a bad person and probably eat fruitcake and drive in the left lane going 35 miles an hour with your blinker on and have long unnecessary conversations with the cashier when there is a long line of people behind you and dig through a coin purse for exact change so you won't get a penny back and hit on the waitstaff in restaurants and refuse to tip strippers for lap dances and delay games of craps with needlessly elaborate inside bets that have the worst odds and would only win you like five bucks if they came in anyway.

[Bagheera]

If you don't feel sympathy for Ritsuko you're a bad person and probably eat fruitcake and drive in the left lane going 35 miles an hour with your blinker on and have long unnecessary conversations with the cashier when there is a long line of people behind you and dig through a coin purse for exact change so you won't get a penny back and hit on the waitstaff in restaurants and refuse to tip strippers for lap dances and delay games of craps with needlessly elaborate inside bets that have the worst odds and would only win you like five bucks if they came in anyway.

Fair point on the rest, but fruit cake? Really? There's no need to get nasty, y'know.

[SoryuUberAlles]

It's hard to like someone when she has no self respect and is more interested in getting even than in considering the consequences of her actions.

Are you saying you dislike an Eva character because they are self-hating and respond to their trauma in a self-destructive fashion? Speaking for myself, as an Asuka fan...

I like what the show does with Ritsuko. That scene where she breaks down and begs for death to the tune of 'Thanatos - if it can't be yours'? Beautiful. Plus, for me, that's the 'rei-is-totally-a-clone-and-also-killed-touji-kinda' scene, and follows the Eva graveyard scene. For me, it's a crowning moment in the Bitter End arc and Ritsuko leads the scene.

I always liked the fact that she's the only one who's got an Evangelion-main-character type emotional arc but is also on the 'inside' of the Gendo-Yui-SEELE part of the plot. I don't dislike Fuyutsuki, but he is kinda under-used as a character - unlike Ritsuko.

So I've got to say on the 'Ritsuko' episodes, 13, 14, 21, even if they're not perfect, Ritsuko adds enough that they're never my least favourite.

As for episode 9, I like it as an Asuka fan because the Asuka characterisation is good - it's just the whole cartoony feel to the whole dance battling thing is a little...undermining?

[NemZ]

Because she's never really properly developed as a sympathetic character

Ritsuko seems decently sympathetic to me, so not sure what your problem is there, man. She's troubled, and all her assets in life have been turn back upon themselves to tie her down in her mother's shadow even as she seems to surpass Naoko in many ways that she can't properly appreciate. She's the voice of reason in an unreasonable universe and thus has to take shit for being wrong for all the right reasons even when literally nobody could have seen the latest miracle coming except through blind stupid hope. She's trapped in a bad relationship because despite her talents her low self-esteem makes her feel she'll never find or deserve anything better (and the world is going to end if she isn't there to help stop it, so there's that too). Nuking Nerv may have been primarily about getting back at Gendo, yes, but in the larger situation of stopping Seele as well isn't that actually a good thing if you're against the instrumentality plan, and how is it much different from Misato and Hyuga being ready to do the same in ep24?

It's hard to like someone when she has no self respect and is more interested in getting even than in considering the consequences of her actions.

Her lack of self respect is WHY she's sympathetic, and just like with Shinji this is due to her upbringing and ongoing manipulation from others. Further, I think Ritsuko is one of the few characters in the show who actually does give a shit about consequences.

[Bagheera]

Are you saying you dislike an Eva character because they are self-hating and respond to their trauma in a self-destructive fashion? Speaking for myself, as an Asuka fan...

Yes, because Ritsuko's an adult, not a traumatized child. And as I noted, it's not just the self-debasement that's an issue; she actually tried to murder people, which is kind of a deal breaker for me.

Ritsuko seems decently sympathetic to me, so not sure what your problem is there, man. She's troubled, and all her assets in life have been turn back upon themselves to tie her down in her mother's shadow even as she seems to surpass Naoko in many ways that she can't properly appreciate.

We're never really shown why she's troubled, though. It always seemed to me like she was a perfectly promising young scientist who made the horrible decision to shack up with Gendo for some reason. And of course, she compares very badly to Misato, whose trauma is made clear to us and who fights to overcome it rather than becoming a jaded, cynical person for no particularly discernible reason.

Nuking Nerv may have been primarily about getting back at Gendo, yes, but in the larger situation of stopping Seele as well isn't that actually a good thing if you're against the instrumentality plan, and how is it much different from Misato and Hyuga being ready to do the same in ep24?

She didn't actually have any reason to think that would stop the Instrumentality plan, so that argument kinda fizzles. Misato and Hyuga were under the impression that Kaworu would be able to end all life on Earth so it's a very different situation for them.

Also, if she really wanted to stop Instrumentality she could have just nuked Lilith (well, that wouldn't have worked, obviously, and she might well have known that, but still). There was really no need to take everyone else in the facility along for the ride.

Her lack of self respect is WHY she's sympathetic, and just like with Shinji this is due to her upbringing and ongoing manipulation from others. Further, I think Ritsuko is one of the few characters in the show who actually does give a shit about consequences.

Doesn't seem that way to me. And as I said above, she's measured by a different standard than Shinji because she's an adult (and not a pilot, so there's that as well).

[SoryuUberAlles]

Yes, because Ritsuko's an adult, not a traumatized child. And as I noted, it's not just the self-debasement that's an issue; she actually tried to murder people, which is kind of a deal breaker for me.

For me, she's like Gendo. It's less sympathy or pity but more of a tragic grandiosity.

Her lack of self respect is WHY she's sympathetic, and just like with Shinji this is due to her upbringing and ongoing manipulation from others. Further, I think Ritsuko is one of the few characters in the show who actually does give a shit about consequences.

...too late...too late...! Which is kinda why I find her tragically interesting.

Plus, I like the elements of the series she represents. Which is also why I usually like a Ritsuko episode.

[Ideograph]

It brings plenty of story resolution, it's just not the story you were focused on.

While Shinji (who sucks) and his psyche are a pretty big part of Eva, we didn't get to know what happened with literally every single plot thread that was set up. Sure, it concludes Shinji's story (sort of), but that's about it.

Yeah, I'll stick with episodes 25 and 26 as the worst episodes ever.

[Bagheera]

While Shinji (who sucks) and his psyche are a pretty big part of Eva, we didn't get to know what happened with literally every single plot thread that was set up. Sure, it concludes Shinji's story (sort of), but that's about it.

Yes, and that's the most important story in the show. So like I said . . .

Yeah, I'll stick with episodes 25 and 26 as the worst episodes ever.

You're entitled, of course, but that amounts to hating the show for not being what you want it to be rather than for being what it is.

[SoryuUberAlles]

Yeah, I'll stick with episodes 25 and 26 as the worst episodes ever.

I wonder if I SHOULD hate 25 and 26 more than I do. I've been spoiled by EoE and Rebuild and the Manga and everything that came after it, so I suppose not having a literal resolution to the series in the On-Air Version should bother me more than it does. I'm not one of those people who watched Eva in '95 videotape by videotape. Man, they must have been pissed.

EDIT: And I do not hate episodes 25 and 26 at all. I'd quote Bagheera here, but that button doesn't seem to be working. Committing to resolving Shinji's psyche as a fundamental the plot is part of what makes Eva so special. Unfortunately, I'm one of those "I-will-solve-EVA-using-only-TV+DC+EoE!" types, and not having a clear tv-ending makes me feel a little bit of a hypocritical. :(

[Ideograph]

Yes, and that's the most important story in the show. So like I said . . .

I disagree with you that it's the most important story in the show.

But I guess that's because I don't like original series Shinj¡ much (he's much better in Rebuild, though).[/quote]

[Chuckman]

Yes, because Ritsuko's an adult, not a traumatized child. And as I noted, it's not just the self-debasement that's an issue; she actually tried to murder people, which is kind of a deal breaker for me.

I'm sure it wasn't foremost in her mind, but depending on the size of the explosion, nuking Nerv may have been for the best, particularly with all of the Evas and both seeds gathered in one place.

[SoryuUberAlles]

nuking Nerv may have been for the best.

You know that scene where they're preparing the dummy plug tests, and Maya says she's doing this under protest, and Ritsuko says something like "we'll if you know what you're doing is wrong, and you do it anyway, I don't know how you sleep at night".

I have no doubt in my mind Ritsuko is a baaaaad person who's done terrible things. She's Gendo's Mad Lab Assistant! She has scenes, repeated across adaptation, where Misato almost/actually does slap her for openly being the public face of NERV's brutality.

I just think she's well-written and fascinating to watch.

[NemZ]

We're never really shown why she's troubled, though. It always seemed to me like she was a perfectly promising young scientist who made the horrible decision to shack up with Gendo for some reason. And of course, she compares very badly to Misato, whose trauma is made clear to us and who fights to overcome it rather than becoming a jaded, cynical person for no particularly discernible reason.

Like I said, her story is much more subtle and just vaguely implied. I get the feeling she was generally a very screwed up kid with a bitter, selfish mother who was alternately incredibly demanding and completely unavailable. In that way being with Gendo must have a taste of familiarity to it, and even negative things can be hard to let go of when you're accustomed to them. She's with him because she thinks he appreciates her (and he does, actually, but Gendo doesn't hesitate to sacrifice pieces as readily as pawns), because she knows enough of what is happening to understand that not helping is suicide, and because in a way it lets her feel like she's 'winning' at least one battle against her mother's shade.

She's jaded and cynical because she knows enough of the truth to know it's all probably pointless. Also some of what comes across as harshness is actually just being realistic and pragmatic, looking at the bigger picture rather than just blindly trusting in emotion like Misato does. Ritsuko gets the short end of their exchanges only because unit 01 continually breaks all the rules to win even when it makes no damn sense, giving unearned credit to Misato's otherwise completely insane schemes.

She didn't actually have any reason to think that would stop the Instrumentality plan, so that argument kinda fizzles. Misato and Hyuga were under the impression that Kaworu would be able to end all life on Earth so it's a very different situation for them.

Doing her damnest to destroy Lilith, the evas, and everyone involved wouldn't stop it? Maybe not, but good luck coming up with a better plan that late in the game. And she knows enough to realize that instrumentality is going to be a big damn deal, so it's not different a situation.

Also, if she really wanted to stop Instrumentality she could have just nuked Lilith (well, that wouldn't have worked, obviously, and she might well have known that, but still). There was really no need to take everyone else in the facility along for the ride.

She's hitting Lilith with everything available, and there's no good way to use that much explosive force without collateral damage. Nukes are not scalpels.

Oh, and on the adult vs. child thing... come on man, you know as well as I do that adults are just children with responsibilities and maturity is at least as much an act as a fact.

[Bagheera]

Doing her damnest to destroy Lilith, the evas, and everyone involved wouldn't stop it?

Probably not. Seele would still have the MPEs, and while they'd be out a vessel I'd wager that's a fixable problem. It doesn't really reflect well on Ritsuko either way, though, since she almost certainly didn't give a damn about the particulars so long as she could screw things up for Gendo.

Oh, and on the adult vs. child thing... come on man, you know as well as I do that adults are just children with responsibilities and maturity is at least as much an act as a fact.

Oh, come on. Comparing a 14-year-old to a 30-year-old doesn't even make sense. The differences in judgement, ability to think long-term, empathy for others, and . . . well, everything, really, are just so vast that the whole idea's a non-starter. The fact that adults often act immature has no bearing on the fact that they have the option to exercise self-restraint and think about the consequences of their actions. Kids don't have that option to nearly the same extent.

[Chuckman]

Ritsuko is:

• Self destructive
  
• Clearly has poor self esteem
  
• Out of touch with her sexuality
  
• Has deep issues with men
  
• Is very bitter and resentful from being an intellgent, capable woman in a male-oriented society
  
• Has a deep desire for physical and emotional affection but can't find it for the reasons above

She is not:

• A crazy cat lady. As far as we can tell she has one cat and gets rid of it because it's a pain in the ass.
  
• A sadistic mad scientist. She has reasons for everything she does, it's not just for the sake of being mean.
  
• Heartless or cruel. She faces the harsh reality that most of Misato's plans have a very poor likelihood of actually working.
  
• Gendo's right hand woman. She doesn't seem to know much more about the Evas than she needs to do do her job.
  
• Responsible for all these atrocities. She didn't create Rei and she was a kid when Second Impact occured.
  

[SoryuUberAlles]

She is not:

• A crazy cat lady. As far as we can tell she has one cat and gets rid of it because it's a pain in the ass.
  
• A sadistic mad scientist. She has reasons for everything she does, it's not just for the sake of being mean.
  
• Heartless or cruel. She faces the harsh reality that most of Misato's plans have a very poor likelihood of actually working.
  
• Gendo's right hand woman. She doesn't seem to know much more about the Evas than she needs to do do her job.
  
• Responsible for all these atrocities. She didn't create Rei and she was a kid when Second Impact occured.
  

The series is kind of vague about what she does for SEELE behind-the-scenes, but then, it's vague about what SEELE and Gendou do in general. Given the nature of the Magi, the nature of the dummy plugs, I think it's reasonable to assume she's prepared to cross a lot of moral taboos a lot of people wouldn't. Whatever she does in episode 7, the possibility that she may indeed have almost caused a nuclear incident to protect NERV's monopoly is pretty...out there. She's not a mere appendage of Gendo, but that's kind of the point - I think the show wants us to assume she's very close to what Gendo and Keel are doing, and she's taken on a lot of the moral responsibility they have. Ritsuko's 'tragedy' for me is fully realising what she's committed to doing, how far she's gone, what her bosses really intend, and what she can really do about given how far it's all progressed by the time she realises all this.

[pwhodges]

I disagree with you that it's the most important story in the show.

So what, in a sentence, is the show actually about in your view?

[cyharding]

I get the feeling she was generally a very screwed up kid with a bitter, selfish mother who was alternately incredibly demanding and completely unavailable.

I may be wrong as it's been over a year since I've last seen the series, but I had the belief that the relationship between Ritsuko and her mother, while probably not perfect, was on the most even keel compared to the other characters. From what we saw; there was, at the least, mutual respect between the two, where even her mother admitted she made mistakes in raising her.