Just suppose for a moment...

[Jayfive]

...that the opening red waves shot, the chalk outline on the hill, the red strip on the moon and Kaworu's 'again' lines are all more than callbacks to the original series and instead all *mean* something so that it is implied or explicitly stated that Rebuild and/or NGE is:

a) a dream/delusion/fantasy/simulation of some sort (final shot: Shinji in a strait-jacket in a padded-cell)

or

b) in some sort of groundhog day-esque universe where time loops and is different each time

- how badly do you reckon would the EVA fanbase take this and how much of a cliche would it be to a Japanese audience? Would they feel cheated? Moreover, would you personally feel cheated? Im guessing folks dont mind Anno screwing with people's heads, but not like that

[The Eva Monkey]

This has been a frequent topic of discussion over the past few years, you might want to check out a few of the other threads:

http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=4369
http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=5955
http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=6022
http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=9474
http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=9716

[Jayfive]

Havent read all of those threads (hadnt seen them before but their existence comes as no surprise) but in the main they seem to be examining the evidence for and against a sequel/remake.

Thats not what i posted this for - Im asking more about how such a thing would be received - would it be the equivalent of the twist in Sixth Sense or more like Bobby stepping out of the shower in Dallas?

But hey, if even that is well-trodden ground then i apologise.

[Sailor Star Dust]

I think it would really depend on the execution (though I agree what we've seen are just series nods (since Rebuild is remake territory so far) instead of any "proof" of a sequel/prequel--or midquel ) and it would really have to make sense narratively.

Otherwise I would feel pretty cheated.

[esselfortium]

Havent read all of those threads (hadnt seen them before but their existence comes as no surprise) but in the main they seem to be examining the evidence for and against a sequel/remake.

Thats not what i posted this for - Im asking more about how such a thing would be received - would it be the equivalent of the twist in Sixth Sense or more like Bobby stepping out of the shower in Dallas?

But hey, if even that is well-trodden ground then i apologise.

My thoughts on it are that it'd hugely cheapen the original ending.

And that's without even getting into the questionable moral compass that several of Rebuild's main protagonists can be argued to have, which -- if you agree with that interpretation -- totally negates the development shown in the series and EoE. Shinji learns to accept others into his life, begin to love himself, and recognize the needs of those around him, only to ensure the existence of a future in which a future version of himself can be arguably more immature and self-centered than he ever was.

[Azathoth]

And that's without even getting into the questionable moral compass that several of Rebuild's main protagonists can be argued to have, which -- if you agree with that interpretation -- totally negates the development shown in the series and EoE.

This.

If the characters are supposed to be developing in a fashion which would imply that they've already experienced the events of NGE and EoE, someone's doing a piss-poor job of writing that. If we're meant to interpret EoE's Third Impact as NME's Second Impact, as that one troll pic that gets posted on /a/ all the time posits, they're doing a piss-poor job of writing that. Since I prefer to believe that Anno's writing is not piss-poor, I don't currently believe in sequel theory.

Although, as a sidenote, I wouldn't be too surprised if Mari turned out to come from the post-EoE world. Would it be stupid and contrived? Sure, yes, but more importantly it would act as a reminder of Anno's claim that over the last fifteen years, "there has been no anime newer than Eva". A character from the original Evaverse - one who appears to be some sort of bizarre amalgam of all three pilots, really (byproduct of various metaphysically dubious liaisons during Third Impact, perhaps? lol Anno) - coming into the Rebuildverse with all its harem and moe antics, just carving shit up oldschool and generally breaking everything out of the mold, could be seen as Anno's big fuck you to modern anime. Of course, Sakamoto tells us that Mari is intended to "destroy the old Eva" - which she will have done, by crossing over to the Rebuildverse, destroying its shit, and synthesizing the two into Anno's new vision of what anime should be.

Not that I'd necessarily agree with him that modern anime is all mediocre - not more so than most anime was mediocre when NGE came out - but if there's a better metatextual interpretation of Mari's character I have yet to find it.

[Jayfive]

I wouldn't be too surprised if Mari turned out to come from the post-EoE world

Well someone involved in Rebuild is on record as saying Mari is like 'a character who has stepped into EVA from another anime' (im paraphrasing but thats the general gist).

Though I learned about this in the context of Mari being a semi-parody character directed at the rabid fanboys (her Gainax bounce, her pink outfit, her cliche bending-over-looking-for-glasses schtick, her love of fighting etc etc).

Also the same person claimed that EVA05 was deliberately ugly and ungainly to see whatever the fanboys would rush out, buy figures of it (which they did) and generally rave about it (which they did). Apparently the toy doesnt even stand up properly.

"there has been no anime newer than Eva"

If thats a direct quote then I also take the liberty of interpreting Mari's character as the creators of Rebuild saying to other studios 'hey, this is how YOU would do it because you havent got 2 original ideas between you'.

Of course, Sakamoto tells us that Mari is intended to "destroy the old Eva" - which she will have done, by crossing over to the Rebuildverse, destroying its shit, and synthesizing the two into Anno's new vision of what anime should be.

Worryingly, the first comparison that popped into my head when reading this was the 'Ace Rimmer' episode of Red Dwarf.

[Lucretius]

Though I learned about this in the context of Mari being a semi-parody character directed at the rabid fanboys (her Gainax bounce, her pink outfit, her cliche bending-over-looking-for-glasses schtick, her love of fighting etc etc).

Also the same person claimed that EVA05 was deliberately ugly and ungainly to see whatever the fanboys would rush out, buy figures of it (which they did) and generally rave about it (which they did). Apparently the toy doesnt even stand up properly.

[Jayfive]

Sorry but never having used 4chan or whatever thats a new image macro on me - youre going to have to explain what you're trying to say.

Have I covered an old chestnut? A conspiracy theory? What?

Bear with me here, ive been into EVA for like a month and taken a LOT of information in during a very short space of time - you're going to have to point out to me whats accepted wisdom, whats verifiable fact and whats outright cobblers rather than just pointing and laughing.

[Lucretius]

I was amused by the implication that there's something subversive about making deliberately shallow characters and deliberately ugly robot designs.

Also, making toys nobody would want just to prove a point would be an untenabble business plan.

[Jayfive]

Im not saying its subversive, im saying they are just playing with the formula of mecha anime and anime generally. Wasnt that one of the themes of the show right from the start?

Seriously, did you not watch 2.0 and see Mari and think 'hold on, she isnt like your typical EVA character, what gives?'. I saw 2.0 before hearing about this parody idea and even I thought something was amiss with my limited knowledge of the show and the genre.

Also, making toys nobody would want just to prove a point would be an untenable business plan.

The franchise is bigger in Japan than Star Wars ever was in the US so im led to believe - from what ive seen the fanboys will buy anything. Making a Unit that deliberately butt-ugly for shits and giggles isnt that much of a risk.

What actually surprises me is that judging by your words and tone this is not an idea thats been gone over a lot on here. If at all. BTW - this isnt something ive pulled out of my arse myself, its only what ive heard presented as at least partial fact elsewhere.

[esselfortium]

Im not saying its subversive, im saying they are just playing with the formula of mecha anime and anime generally. Wasnt that one of the themes of the show right from the start?

Seriously, did you not watch 2.0 and see Mari and think 'hold on, she isnt like your typical EVA character, what gives?'. I saw 2.0 before hearing about this parody idea and even I thought something was amiss with my limited knowledge of the show and the genre.

I'm not really sure what narrative purpose it would be supposed to serve...

In any case, I have a difficult time agreeing that the presentation of Mari is a parody (or an intentional one, in any case..), particularly when other female characters are depicted in similarly shallow ways in 2.0. One review claimed that the Asuka version of the "toothpicks" scene was such absurdly blatant fanservice that it could only possibly be a parody, but it neglected to mention the extensive panty/crotch shots and suggestive, revealing outfits and convenient camera angles used throughout the entire film and played straight.

If any part of 2.0 is supposed to be somehow spoofing fanservice and sexuality, I'd say the surrounding scenes made the attempt fell pretty flat.

(And, again, what purpose is this supposed to serve?)

[Jayfive]

Thats fair enough - there is a point where you run with a parody so far it becomes the thing which it parodies. The 2nd and 3rd Scream films come to mind.

Now that you bring it up, 'Toothpicks 2.0' in particular was so ham-fisted that it went through parody and clean out the other side

[JoeD80]

One review claimed that the Asuka version of the "toothpicks" scene was such absurdly blatant fanservice that it could only possibly be a parody, but it neglected to mention the extensive panty/crotch shots and suggestive, revealing outfits and convenient camera angles used throughout the entire film and played straight.

If any part of 2.0 is supposed to be somehow spoofing fanservice and sexuality, I'd say the surrounding scenes made the attempt fell pretty flat.

(And, again, what purpose is this supposed to serve?)

Anno explores sexual themes in many of his works in different ways. What purpose it serves is really for the writer to figure out and explore the way that he wants to.

[Lucretius]

Anno explores sexual themes in many of his works in different ways.

Anno is indeed aware of the existence of sex.

What purpose it serves is really for the writer to figure out and explore the way that he wants to.

That sentence has no meaning in this context.

[Sun Stealer]

Anno explores sexual themes in many of his works in different ways. What purpose it serves is really for the writer to figure out and explore the way that he wants to.

In this case, he is exploring how gratuitous fan service can bring in dat money.

[JoeD80]

That sentence has no meaning in this context.

Skimmed that one over a little fast when I replied; because the reference to toothpicks / crotch shots got me thinking on that one and I missed the Mari -> Parody reference.

Anno is indeed aware of the existence of sex.

I was referring to his specific use of sexual themes in his art, which he explores from the superficial to the visceral in works like Eva and Re: Cutie Honey and Love and Pop. Judging by his works, sex appears to interest him at much more than an "aware of its existence" level.

[Lucretius]

Skimmed that one over a little fast when I replied; because the reference to toothpicks / crotch shots got me thinking on that one and I missed the Mari -> Parody reference.

K...I'm still not sure what you were trying to say; that we can't say tacky fanservice shots are tacky without skimming Anno interviews to see if he has some profound, deconstructive meaning in mind in scenes of boobs behind toothpicks?

I was referring to his specific use of sexual themes in his art, which he explores from the superficial to the visceral in works like Eva and Re: Cutie Honey and Love and Pop. Judging by his works, sex appears to interest him at much more than an "aware of its existence" level.

"Anno explores sexual themes in many of his works in different ways," is still an essentially meaningless sentence. Sex is ubiquitous. One would be hard pressed to find a director who's never addressed "sexual themes." :P

[Ornette]

"Anno explores sexual themes in many of his works in different ways," is still an essentially meaningless sentence. Sex is ubiquitous. One would be hard pressed to find a director who's never addressed "sexual themes." :P

It's not meaningless in the context of the rest of what he's said, specifically "I was referring to his specific use of sexual themes in his art".

If you're going to continue to argue simply for the sake of arguing at least bring up something more substantial than this...

[Nonoriri]

Definitely a creative exploration of sexual themes going on in 2.0, for sure.