Mr. Tines wrote:I've not gone back to watch this whole scene to compare and contrast; but here's the one screenshot I have to hand. Where is Anno-san's shadow?



Later:

No shadow while climbing the stairs, but there on the platform. Shadow would be to the left on the ascent, as there's a U-turn to go down the stairs on the far side

3 things, first you can see a shadow on Anno's right foot that's stepping on the stair. It's not exactly strong, but there is a shadow you can spot in your 2nd image.

Secondly(this is why I used those specific comparison images), Shinji's shadow noticably stays with him the whole time, including the beach-Instrumentality sequence where things are sketched and erased. It seems they went out of their way to show Shinji's shadow the whole time - why wouldn't they include it now? (Note that the use of a shadow here can have strong implications) (2nd note, during the beach-Instrumentality Scene mentioned, Shinji's footsteps disappear, but his shadow is still drawn attached to him, again drawing attention to it's importance)

Third, there is absolutely no shadow of them as they run up the stairs. IMO it really doesn't make sense for there not to be a shadow at all, considering the light, and even with your image. However, even if you argue that the softness of the light is sufficient to hide shadows, you'll also note that there is absolutely no shade or shadowing whatsoever.

ElMariachi wrote:

SPOILER: Show

Mr. Tines#937975 wrote:I've not gone back to watch this whole scene to compare and contrast; but here's the one screenshot I have to hand. Where is Anno-san's shadow?



Later:

No shadow while climbing the stairs, but there on the platform. Shadow would be to the left on the ascent, as there's a U-turn to go down the stairs on the far side

While a humorous answer, that makes me wonder if the shot of Mari and Shinji running up the stairs wasn't made by motion capture (since we're IRL at this point), hence the "lack" of shadow simply because there wasn't one under the actors.

But if I had to guess unitM's point (correct me if I'm wrong), it's that the train station is not "real" (as in, still in the anti-universe), using the lack of shadow as a proof of it. If that's your point, then I disagree with it, at least the point about the shadows, since as you show in your screenshots, Shinji did had a visible shadow while seated, and both he and Mari have one when they're out of the station.

My larger point that I was going to make a separate post for, was that some weird stuff happens with the sun and shadows. I'm not trying to lead to a conclusion at all, although I do hold my own theories for what happened.

The sun is only shown twice when Shinji and Gendo start fighting in the Anti Universe: 1. Before they start combat and Unit 13 is sitting on a Neo Nerv tower and 2. at the end after Unit 13 throws Unit 01 over the floating tower.

Then Mari says that Gendo is aiming for Instrumentality of the body and the mind, and the Sun travels up and behind the Moon that overlaps. After Mari watches the Sun and the Moon line up, they both are seen inside Instrumentality scenes more frequently and directly. Prior to this, you could see sky, light, clouds, light come from curtains, etc. but only twice was the actual sun object visible, those 2 times I listed above.

The Sun and Moon never meet in EoE. Granted EoE was only 3rd Impact but there are similarities to what happens here. The Moon in EoE is similar to what we see in this movie, except the Sun and the Moon never meet. By the way, Yui at the end of EoE said "as long as the Sun, Moon, and Earth are here, things will be OK."

Well here's the thing, after we see Mari watch the Sun and the Moon meet up, we seldom see the sun "outside of Instrumentality." The sun is not shown among the stars or anything. The next time we see the Sun(as an object) is when it's rising out of the clouds after Eva Infinity blows up. And when it rises out of the clouds, all the black-and-white people are painted colors.

But this still begs the question: Where is this happening? Where is the sun? Where are these clouds and people falling? From what direction is the sun rising? It seems interesting how it's been left out of the frame of action and events and how it shows up as Shinji narrates. The rest of the scenes that follow show sunlight, blue skies, shining rivers, etc. but we don't actually see the Sun object anymore.

All that said, I feel the Sun is suspicious and could be explored.

And further to that, the way the lighting and shadows are done in the last Train Station scene - they're almost entirely wrong. Look where the sun is positioned, relative to Shinji and Mari, and the shadows it's supposed to cast. Why does Mari's head not cast a shadow over Shinji? Why not Shinji? Why is there a shadow on the DSS choker when Mari removes it, but not her hand? Why is it that when Shinji removes Mari glasses, there is no shadow on his hand? From the direction of the Sun, there should be an indication of a shadow being cast, but the shadows are done almost entirely wrong in that scene.

I can see the Sun direction being debated, but I've looked at it a number of times and determined that there should absolutely be shadows, when there are none.

And even further to that, let's not forget - the Train Station numbers change colors when the perspective switches. Previous to the Train Station, the Sun rising from the clouds also colored in all the people falling from the sky.

The way I interpret the scene is that Asuka, Rei and Kaworu are a mere apparition, Shinji projecting them as having their own peaceful lifes now.
Once we see the birds, which have previously been an indicator for apparitions of Rei, we cannot see them anymore through the windows of the train.
In reality they are still in the universe of village 3, because what's otherwise the point of showing the rescue pods?

He and Mari, however, are in completely new realm, maybe even our reality so to speak, free of EVAs and imaginary stuff.

Hello peoples just dropping some stuff I found out/thought of.

I find it a bit weird that Shinji suddenly "wakes up" from sleeping under the sun. That's the first thing I noticed, like how does one even sleep with the sun in their face lol. Well if you watch the scene, you'll notice that the sun changes a bit. First it wakes Shinji up - we can see there's direct sun on his face. But then when he's shown sitting in the station, he's under a roof, and you can see by the bench shadow he's in the shade. I'm not even sure what's going on here, because in other angles too he's shown in direct sun.

At the end the sky is overexposed where the sun should be. This resembles Gendo looking outside of the Train Car into the sky(from inside Eva Infinity's head). This makes me think of Mari and Shinji were somewhere they would be stuck in Infinity's head.

Mari's pinky appeared to change position when she covered his face vs. the other angles. I wasn't sure about this at first but now I don't think this is something actually there.

Shinji's arm motion when he shakes Mari's hand and gets up is the Eva "trigger pull" motion, he doesn't immediately stand up he pulls on the arm to get up.

Mari's outfit materializes buttons towards the end of the scene, before Shinji gets up. Some of her accessories aren't drawn in earlier in the scene.

Hey all. I don't know if anyone's here with me on this wonderful journey, but I've been rewatching the Train Station scene every few weeks to see if I can find some little things.

The other day I discovered some things.

(Clarifying previous point) Shinji and Mari's blazers have no buttons - until Mari removes the DSS choker. Then suddenly there are buttons on the blazers where they should be(on the arms and the chest). The buttons can still be seen when Mari and Shinji run up the stairs. Shinji and Mari's dress shirt buttons are still drawn in throughout the scene.

1a. Shinji's suit arm has 4 buttons, which matches the buttons Yui had on her suit arm in Asuka's Instrumentality flashback with Shinji as a child. Mari's suit at the Train Station has 2 buttons which no one wears in the flashback.

1aa. Shinji's suit is the same colors as his suit from the above flashback scene. In that scene, Shinji has a blue bowtie. In the Train Station, Shinji has a blue tie.

2. Kaworu's watch - disappears? When we're first shown Kaworu from the side, if you look very carefully, there's nothing shown on his left arm(you can tell because there's no "chunky" object on there; his arm just goes into his pocket). However, when the camera is behind Shinji's back, and Kaworu is show over the tracks, we can see he has a watch. Then, the camera zooms closer to Rei and Kaworu - he's wearing a watch. Then, when the train passes by, and Kaworu is shown behind the train window, Kaworu isn't wearing a watch. You can see that Kaworu's watch has disappeared through all the train windows. I measured it through screenshots and the watch is fully gone - but not before the train windows. If you look at the train, before it passes over Kaworu and Rei, there are some pipes that leave some space to see Kaworu and Rei, before the train windows. Look carefully - the watch is still there. The watch disappears through the train windows, but it's also not shown in the first shot of Kaworu and Rei on the side of the platform(although hard to see, and correct me if wrong). (And then after, Rei and Kaworu disappear)

3. Shinji's bag changes. It has a black zipper in all scenes. When he runs up the stairs with Mari, at the beginning of the run, you can see it's now a gold zipper for a moment.

4. The yellow train behind Shinji moves closer and further away from him. At first you can see it's a distance away, but when Mari talks with Shinji, it gets closer behind him. I'm almost 100% that the zoom/blur/angle of Shinji doesn't explain how the train gets closer to Shinji.

5. The unknown schoolgirl at the tracks changes distance. From the side you can see she stands close to the yellow line, in front of Rei and Kaworu, then from in front of Shinji the schoolgirl is further back, and behind Rei and Kaworu.

Let me know what you think, no screenshots but it's a short scene anyways

Also another thing I spotted, for some reason, before Mari spins around Shinji, neither of them have any teeth that shows, like they're just missing. After she spins around Shinji to talk to him face to face, you can see their teeth.

Double post merged - staff

Lol. Good eye for detail! That's quite an amount of animation errors there

Blockio wrote:Lol. Good eye for detail! That's quite an amount of animation errors there

So you think Kaworu, standing in the exact same still image position for a number of seconds, losing his watch only through the train windows(even after the train passes him, you can still see the watch behind it, through the gap in the bars behind the train), is an animation error?

This is the final train station scene. Like, the final scene of Eva. I find it hard to believe Anno didn't pay special attention to putting this scene together.

Mari clearly has no buttons, and you can confirm when she reaches out her arm to take Shinji's DSS choker off him. Her blazer arm in that part is the closest thing to the camera, so it's not a "lack of detailing due to distance" that her blazer cuffs have absolutely no buttons on them. Then suddenly - DSS off - they do.

Let's mention that Mari's dress shirt has her collar buttons drawn in the whole time.

Also it appears changes only appear when there's a significant event that happens. Even the girl moving back behind the line that I mentioned happens when the camera changes angles and the focus moves to Rei and Kaworu.

I'd go ahead and say "animation error" is quite a stretch.

I haven't drawn interpretations from my recent post but if I were to:
-Time(Kaworu's watch) disappears before Rei and Kaworu do, and before Mari touches Shinji. Also note it's only gone in the windows - time is already gone? The ability to reflect on time is gone? Time as we know it disappears upon Mari's arrival? Kaworu's time(his cycle) in the Eva universe is gone?
-Buttons could represent function, so when Shinji's DSS choker is removed, he sees things differently? More functionally?
-Shinji's bag which is shown beside him the whole scene could represent mental baggage from the past... which changes with the removal of the DSS and him running up the stairs. Or Mari swapped bags when we weren't looking?

Note on first and last interpretations: Shinji remembers "cute girl big boobs" from the past Eva. But Mari's boobs are not even touching Shinji.

I see your argument, but at the same time, I also don't see much significance in these particular changes to the outfits; what likely happened here is that the shots through the train windows were done in a different pass than the rest of the scene, and either something changed in the settei that were referenced for them, or the animation director in charge of the respective shots gave different instructions regarding the level of detail to be included.

NTE does use subtle differences to communicate a lot of story, yes, but that is generally done by ways of recurring patterns; a watch or some buttons being or not being there I can't really picture anything that would have enough significance to convince me that it is there by intent, and the only thing that comes to mind for the inconsistencies themselves to be the point would be some variant on the notion that the entire scene is not actually real/still takes place in minus space, which I think squares very poorly with the overall themes

EDIT: If you overlay the frames of Kaworu without the train over Kaworu through the train window, you also see that the watch actually is there, all but the top corner of it is merely covered.

We also know from various interviews that Anno handed in the final script for just shy of the last quarter of the movie incredibly late and have preproduction material dated to within a week of staff screenings; the ending of Shin was produced in quite a hurry.

The aspiration to find meaning where others did not look is commendable, and precisely what the forum is for, but unfortunately, this one is a fairly clear-cut case of being an oversight, much like Kaworu's choker disappeared for a few shots in the cinematic and initial home video release of Q, seemingly because the footage for the trailer was made first, and he did not wear it in that

I agree with Blockio that there's nothing interesting happening with Kaworu's watch in this scene (besides the mere fact of its presence—he's never worn one before, right?), and also that the "aspiration to find meaning where others did not look is commendable." There's so much to see in NTE!

unitM wrote:Mari clearly has no buttons, and you can confirm when she reaches out her arm to take Shinji's DSS choker off him. Her blazer arm in that part is the closest thing to the camera, so it's not a "lack of detailing due to distance" that her blazer cuffs have absolutely no buttons on them. Then suddenly - DSS off - they do.

I'll push back on the button topic. In this specific scene, where Mari's blazer arm is the closest thing to the camera, I think the two buttons are simply rotated inward, away from our point of view. More generally, I don't think the animators are making errors or sending messages via the buttons. Instead, I think they are drawing them correctly and consistently, and choosing to omit the buttons when they're distant. This is illustrated clearly when Mari and Shinji run up the stairs and their buttons all disappear halfway up:


I don't think the above two screenshots show an animation error or send a message. Instead, they just show the animators deliberately economizing on detail in a routine manner.

Also that, yes. Omitting detail on daraway shots is the singular most common practice in artwork of any kind, and as something moves away from the camera, that naturally happens at some point.

It's not only an animation technique that's in just about every instance of animation, it's there in the first place because it's mirroring the fact that details decrease from our vision in real life when distance is introduced. Our vision is relative and animation, in attempting to emulate it authentically, mirrors this by literally omitting detail, versus the way a film camera capturing reality will show details virtually but not literally disappear. If there's some kind of deeply encoded meaning in this scene specifically, using only the existence of these omissions as proof, then the notoriously error-riddled Musashi Gundoh is actually a genius philosophical treatise.