Hi. I am still trying to figure out the lore of the last Evangelion film, and one thing that I'm still trying to figure out is what is Kaworu's angelic appeareance.

There are some hints over 3.0 and TUAT that seem to imply that Kaworu was demoted to the 13th angel because Gendo used the Nebuchadnezar key on him.

So I'm supposing that said key is Kaworu's true body reverted into a nervous system or something akin, and the Kaworu we see in the coffin on the Moon is the vessel of the first angel's soul.

But SEELE has already prepared several clones of him in case the cycle repeats again and another clone is ready to receive the soul in the next loop if their plans get sabotaged (wich happens by Gendo's doings).

With no CRC book from 3.0 and TUAT released yet, we can only especulate from the little information we got from the films.

What are your thoughts guys?

I mostly agree with your analysis, but there's a point I disagree:

AsukaShikinami10 wrote:But SEELE has already prepared several clones of him in case the cycle repeats again and another clone is ready to receive the soul in the next loop if their plans get sabotaged (wich happens by Gendo's doings).

I don't think SEELE knows about the eternal cycle. However, even assuming SEELE knows, they wouldn't need to prepare many clones for Kaworu to receive the soul in the next loop, since each new life SEELE would create a new body for Kaworu.

As we can see in 1.0, the coffins really exist in the moon in Kaworu's current loop, so they likely have a function. I think the coffins are the way SEELE creates Kaworu's body (the soul being from the First Angel). The open coffins being the failed attempts and the closed ones would have been the future attempts.



PS: In the Instrumentality, the coffins appear as representation of Kaworu's eternal cycle. However, I don't think this should be taken literally as each open coffin being for each previous life in the cycle.

Konja7 wrote:As we can see in 1.0, the coffins really exist in the moon in Kaworu's current loop, so they likely have a function. I think the coffins are the way SEELE creates Kaworu's body (the soul being from the First Angel). The open coffins being the failed attempts and the closed ones would have been the future attempts.

Has anyone compared Kaworu's coffins to Yui, Rei, and Asuka's cloning tanks? Konja's ensoulment theory is consistent with the apparent serial use of the coffins: serial use guarantees that the one available soul is embodied in the corresponding one disinterred Kaworu. In contrast the established parallel tank use suggests many bodies will be soulless, such as Rei Q's (as stated directly in 3.0) and maybe even Yui's and Shikinamis' (although not alluded to by dialogue that I can remember).

I am still not entirely positive how literal the coffin circle is to be taken vs how much of it is metaphysical alternaty realities fuckery

AsukaShikinami10 wrote: So I'm supposing that said key is Kaworu's true body reverted into a nervous system or something akin, and the Kaworu we see in the coffin on the Moon is the vessel of the first angel's soul

I think that there's indeed a connection between Kaworu and Nebuchadnezar's key just like you said. And, in my opinion, Evangelion 13 is related to both Kaworu and the Key too. I like to believe that there was a Fifth Adams (represented by the huge cross in south pole and by the huge four armed entity in the dead sea scrolls) whose body became Evangelion 13, its soul reincarnated in Kaworu (just like Adam in the original NGE) and the Key was the missing link between the body and the soul. Maybe a part of the original body which was extracted, but I don't know

I remember Shigeto Koyama (who apparently designed the Key) saying on twitter that the design we see in 2.0 is kind of a spoiler.
I still don't know what he meant.

Yeah, neither do I. Given the circumstances and that Gendo inyected himself with it, there is nothing else spoilerific, just the fact that we can only speculate that it was indeed Kaworu's original body and Gendo inyected it in his body to become an angelic being and that was why Kaworu was "demoted" to the 13th angel, no longer owner of his original body (which was in stasis). But it's still pure speculation for now.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Kaworu state in 3.0 that clones made by the Lilin can’t pull the spears because their souls are in a different spot? Shinji had asked him about why Rei Q couldn’t pilot Eva 13 and he responded with that.
The only way I can see him being a clone and being able to pull Longinus with Shinji simultaneously without creating a big plot hole is if clones made by SEELE have their souls in the right spot, as they seem to not be Lilin if we go by Gendo’s speech in Q before killing them.
On the topic of Seele, I do think they do have knowledge of the cycles in NTE, as in the ANIMA light novel series (which I super recommend btw) they are depicted as collective of ancient beings who’ve lived through numerous cycles and collected knowledge throughout, controlling hosts by giving them said knowledge through the cool shades Kiel in NGE, Gendo in NTE and the host in ANIMA are seen wearing.
I know NTE’s correlations with the other branches of the franchise is a topic of constant debate, however it has already pulled lots of inspiration from ANIMA both in visuals and story beats, such as having a dark Adam Eva from the moon (Armaros and Mk. 6), and even though I haven’t finished the five novels, it has already touched in the topic of universe cycles more than NGE and NTE combined. This precedent for me makes it doubtful that Seele in NTE is not aware about at least the fact Kaworu has lived and died more than once.

@LucAAAs when Kaworu said that Rei's soul was misplaced, I think he was refering to the fact that Rei's soul is still trapped inside Unit-01, so Rei Q doesn't have a soul placed inside her body for her to do anything with removing the spear.

But in Kaworu's case, being the original vessel for the first angel, he does have its soul well placed inside his body and that is why he can handle pulling out one of the spears along with Shinji.

I do like your interpretation of Rei’s scenario, but from my understanding of the speech he was refering to all copies made by the lilin, such as the Shikinami series, and not just the Rei/Ayanami series. If we go by the Amazon subtitles, Kaworu states the “seat of the soul” is in a different place, and not the soul itself, similarly to Ritsuko’s comment on the “chamber of Guf” being empty in the dummy plug Rei’s in NGE, a more objective/physical compartment for the vaguely defined soul. however I could also see the “seat” being Eva 01s entry plug we see Rei in Shin, so just like always in Eva there is no clear answer
I also do agree that the nature of Kaworu’s soul is different enough for his case to also be extraordinary , so I am giving more credit to the idea I mentioned earlier of his cloning by the coffins/Seele being more precise or irrevalant before his angelic status.

LucAAAs wrote:I do like your interpretation of Rei’s scenario, but from my understanding of the speech he was refering to all copies made by the lilin, such as the Shikinami series, and not just the Rei/Ayanami series. If we go by the Amazon subtitles, Kaworu states the “seat of the soul” is in a different place, and not the soul itself, similarly to Ritsuko’s comment on the “chamber of Guf” being empty in the dummy plug Rei’s in NGE, a more objective/physical compartment for the vaguely defined soul. however I could also see the “seat” being Eva 01s entry plug we see Rei in Shin, so just like always in Eva there is no clear answer

The thing is Kaworu called Rei Q as a "mock Lilin", but it isn't really clear if this means a clone. It's possible he calls Rei Q as a "mock Lilin" because she has "the seat of their souls in a different place".

However, Asuka is also a clone, but we know she has a soul inside her body (Mari mentioned her soul in 3.0+1.0).


PS: I've always understood "the seat of the soul is in a different place" as Rei soul being inside Eva-01.

Mock lilin has indeed been used to describe Shinji in Shin, who I believe is not a clone, so I agree with you on the ambiguity of the term in this translation. I am new to the theory scene so I dont really know the general opinion on the Prime subtitles, but in it the term is instead translated as a "fascimile made by the lilin", which in my view makes it pretty explicit it is talking about cloning.

I apologize for not properly conveying my interpretation of the seat of the soul in my previous comments. I did not mean to imply that Rei´s or Asuka´s souls weren´t inside them, my theory was that the "seat of the soul"/"chamber of Guf" is quite literally an organ (maybe even a lilin equivalent to an angel core) of the body, that is misplaced in the clones, like if their hearts were on the right side instead of the left. This is some heavy speculation on my part but that is the idea I got from Ritsukos rambling in ep.22 of NGE and that i extended to Kaworus comment in Q.

Just for reference, Prime's subtitles:


And Prime's dubtitles (pretty similar in this case):