We know that in the original NGE, EVA-01 is Yui Ikari, or at least her in another body.

We also know that all the cybernetic components of the EVA as well as the power supply are to inhibit the EVA's strength and ability to act of her own accord. When she went 'berserk,' that was Yui regaining control of her own EVA body. Her screams are even pitched down versions of Yui's voiceactor, Megumi Hayashibara. https://evangelion.fandom.com/wiki/Evangelion_Unit-01

So.....why is the pilot and direct control necessary? Yui Ikari wasn't a violent killer or psychopath when in her normal human body. So why would she be in the EVA 01 body? I understand the mamma bear instinct of killing Sachiel, but why are the EVAs not simply recruited as soldiers themselves, since they are in fact known people, and instead used as mechs?

There’s no evidence to suggest that the Eva’s are capable of acting in any more than an instinctual, animalistic manner on their own. Just because they are animated with a human soul does not imply that there’s anything resembling a human consciousness left within them.

Rei’s probably the best first-hand example of how souls work mechanically in Evangelion. She is a being comprised of an alien soul inhabiting a series of half-human half-alien clone bodies, and it’s made clear that while there is some transfer of instinctual emotional connections, there is no continuity of consciousness (e.g. where Rei III starts crying when handling Gendo’s glasses, but doesn’t understand why).

I think the human Yui truly died during the contact experiment. Eva-01 might be animated by her soul, but little remains of the person that is Yui beyond the shadows of a protective maternal instinct.

Archer wrote:There’s no evidence to suggest that the Eva’s are capable of acting in any more than an instinctual, animalistic manner on their own. Just because they are animated with a human soul does not imply that there’s anything resembling a human consciousness left within them.

Rei’s probably the best first-hand example of how souls work mechanically in Evangelion. She is a being comprised of an alien soul inhabiting a series of half-human half-alien clone bodies, and it’s made clear that while there is some transfer of instinctual emotional connections, there is no continuity of consciousness (e.g. where Rei III starts crying when handling Gendo’s glasses, but doesn’t understand why).

I think the human Yui truly died during the contact experiment. Eva-01 might be animated by her soul, but little remains of the person that is Yui beyond the shadows of a protective maternal instinct.

Great points. I'd add to that that the series often evokes the separation between mind, body and the idea of total control in many ways, including for instance when Shinji is absorbed into the LCL. Or when Asuka is infiltrated psychologically by the angel, it's less like a conscious probe and more like the angels have reached a point where they're growing past certain thresholds in the manner of an evolutionary breakthrough--it's mental contamination, yes, but it's more like baby steps on their part instead of some kind of calculated scientific procedure.

All the manners of being in Eva are confused and alienated between their various components--often mirroring the ordinary problems regarding coherence (or lack of it) in day to day life.

Yui definitely has a meaningful degree of control and agency within 01, but she's the exception rather than the rule, and as shown many a time is somewhat temperamental

Blockio wrote:Yui definitely has a meaningful degree of control and agency within 01, but she's the exception rather than the rule, and as shown many a time is somewhat temperamental

That is so strange. She seemed so sweet and calm before when she was a normal human.

Maybe the greater agency is because EVA-01's body budded off of Lilith, and all humans have Lilith's soul to some extent as they're her descendants?

But if that's the case, why make any EVA units from Adam? Wouldn't Lilith-derived EVA bodies link with any human better as all modern humans are her descendants?

Blockio wrote:Yui definitely has a meaningful degree of control and agency within 01, but she's the exception rather than the rule, and as shown many a time is somewhat temperamental

Where’s the evidence for this? I admittedly do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of the original show, but I don’t recall anything to suggest that she’s in any meaningful degree of control and agency. The closest I could see this interpretation is where Shinji sees a vision of her when he’s trapped inside the core, but that’s just as easy to rationalize as being a hallucination/projection by Shinji in response to feeling the Eva’s “motherly” presence.

Asunji_Yuko wrote:That is so strange. She seemed so sweet and calm before when she was a normal human.

The audience sees Yui through the points of view of two people who are EXTREMELY biased and unreliable. When you take a look at the things she actually does, the most charitable interpretation of her character is that she’s a brainwashed death cultist who genuinely believes that everything she’s doing is in service of the greater good.

Archer wrote:Where’s the evidence for this? I admittedly do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of the original show, but I don’t recall anything to suggest that she’s in any meaningful degree of control and agency. The closest I could see this interpretation is where Shinji sees a vision of her when he’s trapped inside the core, but that’s just as easy to rationalize as being a hallucination/projection by Shinji in response to feeling the Eva’s “motherly” presence.

We also have no shortage of Gendo talking about 01 doing (or not doing) things as Yui being the one beind the actions.
Also the entirety of EoE

I don’t see why Gendo should be trusted as a credible source here. He’s one of the incredibly biased and unreliable POV’s I was talking about, and his entire motivation (bringing Yui back) basically requires him to believe that she’s still alive inside Unit-1. I believe that he believes it, but I don’t think his beliefs should be taken at face value as what’s actually true.

I also fail to see how “the entirety of EoE” suggests that Yui is in control. Clearly what you’re seeing isn’t as universally self-evident as you might have assumed. Do you have anything more specific for me to chew on? Just to clarify, my assertion is that every single instance of Unit-01 acting independently can be plausibly explained by animalistic instinct rather than human intellect. A single counter-example where I’d have to REALLY stretch to stick to the “instinct” interpretation would be sufficient to change my mind.

Archer wrote:I don’t see why Gendo should be trusted as a credible source here. He’s one of the incredibly biased and unreliable POV’s I was talking about, and his entire motivation (bringing Yui back) basically requires him to believe that she’s still alive inside Unit-1. I believe that he believes it, but I don’t think his beliefs should be taken at face value as what’s actually true.

I also fail to see how “the entirety of EoE” suggests that Yui is in control. Clearly what you’re seeing isn’t as universally self-evident as you might have assumed. Do you have anything more specific for me to chew on? Just to clarify, my assertion is that every single instance of Unit-01 acting independently can be plausibly explained by animalistic instinct rather than human intellect. A single counter-example where I’d have to REALLY stretch to stick to the “instinct” interpretation would be sufficient to change my mind.

AFAIK the EVAs are empty shells that can't function without a soul. When the EVAs respond instinctively i.e. 'go berserk,' I don't see who else it'd be driving that response other than Yui herself (or whoever else is the resident soul).

Keep in mind humans also have basal primate instincts. I think of it like when Saiyans turn into Oozaru, they usually don't use more than their battle instincts and rage, with some rare exceptions (Gohan recognizing his dad's voice, Vegeta being totally lucid and in control).

My point is, “being animated by Yui’s soul” and “has the consciousness and memories of Yui” are two very different things, and the former does not necessarily imply the latter. Rei has Lilith’s soul (and the soul of previous Rei incarnations), but it’s pretty solidly implied that every iteration is a different “individual” so to speak, e.g. Rei III isn’t just Rei II but with amnesia.

While there’s no textual evidence for it, I think the body also affects how a soul is expressed. Rei and Kaworu have the souls of eons-old eldritch abominations, and despite their behavior being a little off, they’re a LOT more well-adjusted than you’d expect for eons-old eldritch abominations reborn in semi-human bodies. I think this is because… well, the bodies they inhabit have a (mostly) human brain, the physical structure of which affects how someone thinks, their memories, etc. It’s entirely plausible that an Eva’s brain is incapable of supporting a human consciousness in the first place, hence why its “natural” state seems to be a berserk mode.

Archer wrote:My point is, “being animated by Yui’s soul” and “has the consciousness and memories of Yui” are two very different things, and the former does not necessarily imply the latter. Rei has Lilith’s soul (and the soul of previous Rei incarnations), but it’s pretty solidly implied that every iteration is a different “individual” so to speak, e.g. Rei III isn’t just Rei II but with amnesia.

While there’s no textual evidence for it, I think the body also affects how a soul is expressed. Rei and Kaworu have the souls of eons-old eldritch abominations, and despite their behavior being a little off, they’re a LOT more well-adjusted than you’d expect for eons-old eldritch abominations reborn in semi-human bodies. I think this is because… well, the bodies they inhabit have a (mostly) human brain, the physical structure of which affects how someone thinks, their memories, etc. It’s entirely plausible that an Eva’s brain is incapable of supporting a human consciousness in the first place, hence why its “natural” state seems to be a berserk mode.

Hm....well, I think there are 3 things, but I think I'm agreeing with you overall:

1. Feeling a certain way about an object implies some level of memory about it, though not understanding the emotion obviously means it's not a whole memory.

2. Even if the ensouled EVAs cannot act more than instinctively on their own, they still have a "human will" per Ritsuko. This will would come from the particular human soul contained in them. So however feral the EVAs may be, it would be the "feral" form of Yui, Kyoko, etc.

3. The inability of the EVAs to think rationally would explain the need for pilots, thus answering my question.

Archer wrote:Rei has Lilith’s soul (and the soul of previous Rei incarnations), but it’s pretty solidly implied that every iteration is a different “individual” so to speak, e.g. Rei III isn’t just Rei II but with amnesia.

I got the opposite impression. They may be in different bodies, and their memories may not all be there, but they're all still the same general Rei. The only Rei who is really own individual is Rei Q.

DTGee wrote:

Archer#940690 wrote:Rei has Lilith’s soul (and the soul of previous Rei incarnations), but it’s pretty solidly implied that every iteration is a different “individual” so to speak, e.g. Rei III isn’t just Rei II but with amnesia.

I got the opposite impression. They may be in different bodies, and their memories may not all be there, but they're all still the same general Rei. The only Rei who is really own individual is Rei Q.

Well, Rei I and Rei II/III are probably different since the former is likely in EVA-00.

Asunji_Yuko wrote:Well, Rei I and Rei II/III are probably different since the former is likely in EVA-00.

Could be but they never actually ended up going into who's soul is in Unit-00. Probably because they realized none of the possible options really made any sense.

DTGee wrote:

Asunji_Yuko#940698 wrote:Well, Rei I and Rei II/III are probably different since the former is likely in EVA-00.

Could be but they never actually ended up going into who's soul is in Unit-00. Probably because they realized none of the possible options really made any sense.

Didn't we see the point of view of EVA-00 during its freak out during testing, and from that we see Ritsuko but with brown instead of blonde hair, thus resembling her mother, Naoko? And it wasn't corrected on multiple redos of the cel painting? It would make sense that the soul of Rei I would feel an intense contempt for Naoko since she was murdered by her.

I believe it was probably the intention at the time the episode was made that Rei I was the soul inside Unit-00, but several rewrites ended up happening, and things changed, so they never followed up on that setup.

That's the commonly accepted theory, yes.
It's on a bit shaky ground, there definitely were some changes to the script partway through writing, but it does also make sense with how we see fractured souls portrayed in Kyoko; after the contact experiment, she's entirely psychotic, meanwhile 02 is the most well-behaved and docile Eva in the series; for Rei 2 and 00, it is the other way around. This is admittedly on somewhat shaky ground and has a couple of places where it stretches evidence a bit far, but it's something that I think works quite well as a metaphysics thing.

Blockio wrote:That's the commonly accepted theory, yes.
It's on a bit shaky ground, there definitely were some changes to the script partway through writing, but it does also make sense with how we see fractured souls portrayed in Kyoko; after the contact experiment, she's entirely psychotic, meanwhile 02 is the most well-behaved and docile Eva in the series; for Rei 2 and 00, it is the other way around. This is admittedly on somewhat shaky ground and has a couple of places where it stretches evidence a bit far, but it's something that I think works quite well as a metaphysics thing.

Why do you suppose only EVA-01 was made from Lilith and the other 2 were made from Adam???