I do not think fun to be pessimistic and I'm not a nihilist, but I think that this story does not have a moral and that there is no redemption or anything positive to be absorbed it.

How can you possibly make such an assertion when the story isn't even finished being told? That's like not finishing Goldilocks two thirds of the way through and saying "This story has no moral or message; it's just some blonde bitch committing breaking and entering and messing up some house."

I always thought that there were two kinds of suffering in life: the constructive that makes people stronger and destructive it is only useless misery, the life of Shinji is only the second type. For me EoE was a nihilist

End of Evangelion objectively and demonstrably has a 'moral'. You may disagree on the quality of that moral, but it is present in the text of the film. The movie is a fantastical representation of the deepest pit of despair and depression (expressed in sci-fi concepts and apocalyptic scenarios instead of mundane situations) and Shinji is the stand-in for anyone who's ever felt so fed up with life that they have seriously considered killing themselves, other people, or both.

However, despite reaching such a blackened, dark, ugly place in his life, Shinji was able to rekindle his sense of hope and desire for companionship and living, and chose to crawl out of that hole and face reality of his own will. This corresponds to what people with clinical depression have to do basically every day they have an episode. Is the world Shinji/The Viewer returns to perfect? No. But there is hope for things to get better, and it's worth pursuing. It's worth trying. The journey itself is meaningful.

And it WILL get better. Asuka showed Shinji a tenderness she never would have before, afterall.

one-eyed wrote:Reichu: I understood that this dialogue was only illustrative, but the question is still valid: how can anyone control unconsciously want something “evil”? (snip)

As far as I was aware, this thread wasn't about the tired old question of Shinji's moral culpability, just whether or not his "wish" was accountable for all of Eva-01's actions.

I liked the original topic better. Let's go back to that.

I don't know whether this falls outside the scope of the original topic, but it certainly seems to me that Yui is fairly inconsistent about which conscious/unconscious desires she's willing to fulfill.

During the Bardiel incident, Shinji made it quite clear that his goal was to rescue Unit-03's pilot, or at the very least, not take any actions which would harm his co-worker. At that point, Yui demonstrated that it preferred to follow the dummy system's programming, even when her son was screaming at her to stop. Perhaps in that moment, her desire to destroy the angel took priority over anything Shinji wanted.

Then later on, as Zeruel is in the process of infiltrating the Geofront, Unit-02's beast mode proves ineffective, Rei/Unit-00 are devoured, and the result of the battle is rapidly approaching an angel-initiated Third Impact, Yui decides that now is a good time to reject the dummy system. Suddenly, whatever concerns she may have previously had about destroying angels and possibly preventing 3I aren't really considered urgent enough to either accept the dummy plug or simply activate on her own without Shinji and eliminate the threat immediately.

Leaving global emergencies aside for the time being, at any point during the course of the first two films, do you think Shinji might have ever wanted (consciously or not) for Gendo to die? The scene where Unit-01 climbed atop NERV's pyramid certainly comes to mind. Sadly, Yui's wish-indulgence mojo in those moments was nowhere to be found.

So is any of this inconsistency due to multiple plot contrivances being employed or lazy(ish) writing that viewers are willing to overlook in pursuit of a greater "message" that exists somewhere beyond the text? I don't think you have to look very far to find arguments which dance around both sides of the issue and I still think it's fair to say that until the final film is released, we can only speculate on what everybody's true objectives are.

In the meantime, I've seen a bunch of posts where people claim that the members of Wille (and I suppose by extension, Anno) are just using Shinji as a scapegoat. My personal take is that Yui should be included somewhere on that list, as well (if not right at the top in boldface, capital letters). I believe that she has had her own nebulous agenda since day one and instead of allowing herself to be influenced by people's random desires, she is merely acting on whatever components of those chaotic impulses just happen to run parallel to her own on that particular day.

On top of all that I say she's hiding. Many people accuse Shinji of this with the whole "retreating from reality into Unit-01's core" stuff. In the original series, when Shinji was absorbed as a result of his 400% sync ratio, the audience was given a glimpse into some of his trippy dream/flashback/train of thought dialogue sequences during the one month while NERV was attempting to retrieve him. Now in 3.33, we're told that he was contained within the core for a full fifteen years and, umm...

Well, nothing I guess. During all that time, Yui doesn't attempt to communicate with him once or use an episode 25/26 style therapy session to help him resolve some emotional issues? Unless I missed something it sure doesn't look that way.

So, now it would appear that Wille is quite confident that it can install Unit-01 as its power source, use it in battle to accomplish its own endgame, and somehow avoid duplicating the very same conditions they're blaming Shinji for. Perhaps there's an extra lance or similar piece of phlebotinum they somehow acquired when I wasn't looking, which will somehow guarantee that Yui stays wherever she's put. Or maybe Yui is remaining dormant out of shame for what she actively took part in. More than likely, she's just waiting for the right moment to participate in yet another apocalypse (what are they up to now, six?), deliver a rousing speech about how everything will be fine, and promptly leave before the heavy lifting begins. Tune in to 4.0 to find out.

Ball's in your court, Anno.

So, now it would appear that Wille is quite confident that it can install Unit-01 as its power source, use it in battle to accomplish its own endgame, and somehow avoid duplicating the very same conditions they're blaming Shinji for. Perhaps there's an extra lance or similar piece of phlebotinum they somehow acquired when I wasn't looking, which will somehow guarantee that Yui stays wherever she's put.

Asuka DID seem to bind Unit 01 to the Wunder sing the Lance of Cassius, to be fair.

It looked a bit like the Lance of Cassius, but I'm pretty sure there's been a thread where the difference was highlighted, showing that it is not the lance. I'm sure that if it had been, we would have been left in no doubt.

Reichu wrote:Going by this logic, Fuyutsuki calls the Rei who comes to get him in EoE "Ikari" (i.e., Gendo). What sinister implications!

That's a very poor argument on your part, to be honest. Fuyu was talking aloud, while Gendo was talking to a giant Rei head, and referring to it as Yui. The contexts are substantially different, and your "sinister" attempt to discredit my argument doesn't provide anymore value to yours either.

I am willing to say that I don't have evidence to prove my point. But using logical fallacies doesn't make your point any better, nor does standing outside of the argument set you on a morally higher ground.

Reichu wrote:As already pointed out to you, it's possible to address someone who isn't actually there. Some of the audience assumes the Rei head represents Yui, but obviously it doesn't, since that's not where Yui is. And, well, the script says it isn't Yui, which you've chosen to ignore for whatever reason.

See, here's the thing, and please don't mistake my repetition for hostility. But you unfortunately do not have any secure evidence to draw the line where you draw it. I'll let you have that the script tells us its a Rei head, but when you say things like "but it obviously doesn't, because it's not where Yui is" is your own interpretation of events. You don't know where Yui is, and there is nothing obvious about the scene. It's also pointed out later in the movie that Rei Q(Yui's?) soul is elsewhere. While this evidence is important to take into account, it is not definitive, though it does provide your argument an advantage over mine. But like I stepped in with in my previous post, just because the are holes in the boat of my argument, does not justify yours to be leak free. (Though considering the substance of your argument, it is definitely clean, something t I can't say for my own)

In the end, Gendo is still announcing something to Yui, whether it be to the air or the head. Yui is Rei, so frankly, whether the script titles the head as Rei or Yui makes little difference to me. But in the a sense of a secure argument, what you are saying is more correct than my words.

unitM wrote:Yui is Rei,

But that's too absolute. Rei is a physical clone of Yui, but their souls are not the same (though admittedly the exact situation is less clear in Rebuild)

unitM wrote:Fuyu was talking aloud, while Gendo was talking to a giant Rei head, and referring to it as Yui. The contexts are substantially different

Fuyutsuki was looking directly at Rei/Yui as he talked, so I fail to see the distinction you're trying to make. :p

Reichu wrote:Fuyutsuki was looking directly at Rei/Yui as he talked, so I fail to see the distinction you're trying to make. :p

One was a floating apparition that collected souls for the apocalypse.

The other was a giant head of a dead wife.

Hmm. :p

(What I really mean though, was that the contexts and the situations were entirely different. Talking aloud is talking aloud, but the environments were way different.)

unitM wrote:The other was a giant head of a dead wife.

Hmm. :p

Except, as I've mentioned, it's NOT the giant head of his dead wife. Hmm. :p

unitM wrote:Talking aloud is talking aloud, but the environments were way different.)

So how important is the environment? If they address their remarks to Yui, then Yui is whom they are talking to.

pwhodges wrote:So how important is the environment? If they address their remarks to Yui, then Yui is whom they are talking to.

Well, the point of the comparison was to show that you can talk AT something without it actually being the thing you're addressing.

EoE: Fuyutsuki talks AT Rei/Yui, but he's addressing Gendo, who is somewhere else.
3.0: Gendo talks AT giant Rei head, but he's addressing Yui, who is somewhere else.

It's obvious enough to know that Rei/Yui are not Gendo, but what about the giant head not being Yui? Well, Fuyutsuki tells us that Yui went into Eva-01; Gendo seems to have plans for himself and Yui; and part of Gendo's plans involve the giant head exploding into blood. Logically, then, we can probably trust the script on the matter of the head being a "Rei head". Its relation to Yui is probably restricted to the Yui/Rei connection, and whatever role Lilith's corpse plays in the plan Gendo is mentioning.