First of all, this is my first message to this forum, so... hi everyone.

Now, let's try to build a coherent question.

One. Angels attack Nerv's HQ in Tokyo-3 from episode 1.

Two. Adam isn't actually in Nerv's HQ until episode 8. Kaji takes it from Germany and gives it to Gendo, so both of them know this.

Three. In episode 15 we see a giant, er, entity, nailed to a cross in Nerv's HQ (Terminal Dogma, if I'm not wrong). Kaji tells Misato it's Adam (more on this later), but we know it's actually Lilith (Kaworu tells us in episode 24).

So, from One and Two, either Angels really hate Tokyo-3's people, or we should infer that they want to make contact with Lilith (or they can't tell the difference between Adam and Lilith, but I'd find that quite odd), because they attack Nerv's HQ long before Adam is in there.

In episode 8 an angel attacks Shinji, Asuka et al in the middle of the sea. Again, he could be on route to Tokyo-3 and casually find them, but the most obvious conclusion is that he's after Adam, which Kaji is carrying. So, again, either Angels can't tell the difference between sources of life or they go after *both* Adam and Lilith.

Finally, as I said, in #15 Kaji calls Lilith Adam, but he surely knows that's not true (he knows angels attacked Tokyo-3 before he gave Adam to Gendo, and it's hard to believe Nerv could both make Adam grow and build the whole Terminal Dogma stuff in no-time).

So, basically:
Is it possible to describe a logical plan in Angel's actions or they are purely plot devices to move the show forward?

Why does Kaji call Lilith Adam? I think it's safe to say Anno had thought about Adam and Lilith way before that point, because I think quite early (don't remember exactly when, too tired to re-watch the DVD's now :)) in the show they call Sachield the 3rd Angel and because of the "Angels needed Lilith to be there from the beginning" theory I exposed before, so I won't buy that originally Lilith *was* Adam but later on they decided to make it Lilith. Any ideas? (other than "he was just lying to Misato for no reason").

Well, that's it, I hope I was able to explain myself :)

I'm going gender neutral on the Angels today.

My assumption is that Kaji mistook Lilith for Adam when he found it originally. He is a spy, and he was poking around and made his way into the LCL plant. Misato also mistook Lilith for Adam, so its not such a blunder I would think.

First of all, there's the belief that the Angels are secretly sent by Seele. There's nothing to verify or dissuade this idea, so I'll simply move on.

The idea that a higher power sending the Angels as a test isn't an option here as it has been expressly stated that there is no god or religious truth to Eva.

The Angels may well have some sort of sensory ability to sense the location of Adam/Lilith, otherwise, how would they know where to go?

The only Angel we know that is explicitly trying to return to Adam is Kaworu, who is the vessel for Adam's soul, who upon close inspection idenifies the giant in terminal dogma as Lilith. They can't all be trying to return to Adam, as Sachiel, Shamshel, and Ramiel attack Nerv when its just Lilith, Eva Unit 00 and Eva Unit 01.

Now, you can chalk this all up as plot convenience. Afterall, this is a cartoon.

The only, if any coherent motive to the Angels, given the facts, is that they are seeking out Lilith. Why? Because if you destroy Lilith, then you destroy humanity's chances of enacting Instrumentality. Afterall, Kaworu states that only one lifeform can survive, and it is my assumption that he was refering directly to Lilith based life versus Adam based life.

The Eva Monkey wrote:My assumption is that Kaji mistook Lilith for Adam when he found it originally. He is a spy, and he was poking around and made his way into the LCL plant. Misato also mistook Lilith for Adam, so its not such a blunder I would think.

There is actually some reason to think that Lilith simply didn't exist in the storyline at that point. (...But that Anno left the "second angel" slot open for something he could make up later to tie everything together.) I can dig up the link for anyone who cares.

First of all, there's the belief that the Angels are secretly sent by Seele. There's nothing to verify or dissuade this idea, so I'll simply move on.

Um... who the hell would actually believe this?

The Angels may well have some sort of sensory ability to sense the location of Adam/Lilith, otherwise, how would they know where to go?

Ah, one of my favorite "plot holes you could drive a truck through". Ever wonder why the Angels apparently can't tell Adam and Lilith apart, but the Evas don't seem to confuse them at all, despite the fact that they're all (and I do mean all) more closely related to Adam than Lilith is?

The only Angel we know that is explicitly trying to return to Adam is Kaworu

Being as Seele explicitly told him where Adam was and he went to Lilith anyway, maybe it's not as "explicit" as you might think.

They can't all be trying to return to Adam, as Sachiel, Shamshel, and Ramiel attack Nerv when its just Lilith, Eva Unit 00 and Eva Unit 01.

Now, you can chalk this all up as plot convenience. Afterall, this is a cartoon.

The only, if any coherent motive to the Angels, given the facts, is that they are seeking out Lilith. Why? Because if you destroy Lilith, then you destroy humanity's chances of enacting Instrumentality. Afterall, Kaworu states that only one lifeform can survive, and it is my assumption that he was refering directly to Lilith based life versus Adam based life.

Obviously, that motive can't apply to all Angels. NGE2 says, I believe, that some Angels were seeking out Adam, some were seeking out Lilith, and the rest were f***ing around. I've gotten to the point where explanations like this just seem pretentious and create more questions. I agree with Monkey (I shudder at the thought!) here: They show up wherever it is most convenient for the plot.

The only, if any coherent motive to the Angels, given the facts, is that they are seeking out Lilith. Why? Because if you destroy Lilith, then you destroy humanity's chances of enacting Instrumentality. Afterall, Kaworu states that only one lifeform can survive, and it is my assumption that he was refering directly to Lilith based life versus Adam based life.

In that sense, the Angels may have been seeking out the active Evas, too. Destroy Eva, and destroy the human race's last means of defending Adam/Lilith. Iruel was an Angel that seems to back this up - it was more preoccupied fiddling around with the MAGI and Evas than with directly seeking out Adam/Lilith when, since it was microscopic, no-one would've had a chance of stopping it if had decided to. I'd say Iruel was dumb, unless it was actually trying to get to the bottom of this silly Adam/Lilith business. :P

I always figured that since the angels were born from adam if one merged with him they'd grow stronger.

That or it a plot hole, not one important enough to kill off the plot just show that eva good though it is has its flaws.

Tabris wrote:In that sense, the Angels may have been seeking out the active Evas, too. Destroy Eva, and destroy the human race's last means of defending Adam/Lilith. Iruel was an Angel that seems to back this up - it was more preoccupied fiddling around with the MAGI and Evas than with directly seeking out Adam/Lilith when, since it was microscopic, no-one would've had a chance of stopping it if had decided to. I'd say Iruel was dumb, unless it was actually trying to get to the bottom of this silly Adam/Lilith business. :P

Ireul seemed more intent on proving it was a 1337 hacker than anything else. Arael and Armisael, too, seemed to just be f***ing around, as opposed to complying to some Higher Objective.

Reichu wrote:Ireul seemed more intent on proving it was a 1337 hacker than anything else. Arael and Armisael, too, seemed to just be f***ing around, as opposed to complying to some Higher Objective.

So much for the "the Angels appear to be getting smarter" line...

Tabris wrote:So much for the "the Angels appear to be getting smarter" line...

Well, how does taking a little side interest in the enemy make them stupid?

Reichu wrote:Well, how does taking a little side interest in the enemy make them stupid?

By getting oneself killed, perhaps? Thereby becoming not anything, least of all 'smarter'.

Of course, I'm in no position to define the nature of intelligence, so I'll just say that in order to have a shred of it, you probably have to be alive.

The idea that a higher power sending the Angels as a test isn't an option here as it has been expressly stated that there is no god or religious truth to Eva.

While I agree in the way this relates to the Angels, let's also not forget that nicotine is not addictive.

Reichu wrote:There is actually some reason to think that Lilith simply didn't exist in the storyline at that point. (...But that Anno left the "second angel" slot open for something he could make up later to tie everything together.) I can dig up the link for anyone who cares.

I do care! :)

Ah, one of my favorite "plot holes you could drive a truck through". Ever wonder why the Angels apparently can't tell Adam and Lilith apart, but the Evas don't seem to confuse them at all, despite the fact that they're all (and I do mean all) more closely related to Adam than Lilith is?

Obviously, now you have to tell me all the other huge plot holes in the series, I always thought the whole Adam/Lilith and Angels motivation was the only serious one.

Obviously, that motive can't apply to all Angels. NGE2 says, I believe, that some Angels were seeking out Adam, some were seeking out Lilith, and the rest were f***ing around. I've gotten to the point where explanations like this just seem pretentious and create more questions. I agree with Monkey (I shudder at the thought!) here: They show up wherever it is most convenient for the plot.

Hrm... I really need to play that game. Now, I really wanted you guys to enlighten me about the Angels motivation issue, but it seems the consensus is they are just plot devices. Oh well, I guess nothing is perfect, not even NGE :)

xan wrote:I do care! :)

Here you go.

Obviously, now you have to tell me all the other huge plot holes in the series, I always thought the whole Adam/Lilith and Angels motivation was the only serious one.

Ah, but it's more fun to discover them on your own...

Hrm... I really need to play that game.

From what I hear, it is "teh crap".

Now, I really wanted you guys to enlighten me about the Angels motivation issue, but it seems the consensus is they are just plot devices.

Well, it's not a "consensus" because a mere two people said so.

Reichu wrote:I've gotten to the point where explanations like this just seem pretentious and create more questions. I agree with Monkey (I shudder at the thought!) here: They show up wherever it is most convenient for the plot.

Mark my words, that is not the only thing you will agree to being a plot convenience. *maniacal laugh*

The harder and harder I think about this, the more painfully obvious it is that the Angels appear as they do purely for plot convenience. Without a higher power acting upon, its simply ludicrous to think they're behaving or acting in a realistic or logical fasion.

The Eva Monkey wrote:Mark my words, that is not the only thing you will agree to being a plot convenience. *maniacal laugh*

What else did you have in mind?

The Eva Monkey wrote:The harder and harder I think about this, the more painfully obvious it is that the Angels appear as they do purely for plot convenience. Without a higher power acting upon, its simply ludicrous to think they're behaving or acting in a realistic or logical fasion.

Hum, ok, wait a moment, maybe we are being too anthropocentric on this one. Why are humans the only beings entitled to act in a non uniform fashion? For an external observer human actions throughout NGE could seem as chaotic as angel's actions. The same way we had no less than 2 different visions of a 3I, Angels could have several versions as well, some requiring Lilith, some requiring Adam, ...

I think their actions are vague enough that anything we come up with will be pure speculation, but maybe dismissing them as pure plot devices is too premature.

Although, of course, you could argue that an object or someone's actions so vague that they could mean anything, that are never revealed in the end, and that *apparently* are just in the mix to move the show forward are exactly what plot devices (McGuffin!) are. The real question is whether the vagueness is intentional and justified or not.

xan wrote:Angels could have several versions as well, some requiring Lilith, some requiring Adam, ...

Some requiring the tentacle rape of an Eva...

Reichu wrote:Some requiring the tentacle rape of an Eva...

One of these days Reichu, one of these days!