Kaworu Nagisa and the Imaginary Monoliths
- Tyrus [ANF]
- Embryo
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Sounds like a Harry Potter knock-off, doesn't it?
I've been carrying this around for a while. Reichu's Revelations have inspired me to post and I'm very excited about laying it out.
There is a scene in Episode 24' ("... 'Knockin' on Heaven's Door'", [DC]) that I believe should NOT be taken at face value. I believe the scene has more in common with ep.s 25 & 26 than with anything else. In short: I don't believe the scene is actually happening. Or at least, not happening at the same time.
I'm talking about the "Seele Early-Morning Chat" addition to the Director's Cut.
The scene, as it opens, mirrors the one in which Shinji meets Kaworu for the first time:
Shinji ("voice over," thinking to himself): Everyone, including Toji and Kensuke, lost their homes and left. My friends... I don't have anyone I can call a friend anymore. There's no one. I can't go see Ayanami. I don't have the courage for it. I don't know how I'm supposed to face her. Asuka, Miss Misato, Mother... What should I... What should I do?
Later, Kaworu's predicament is much the same: What should I do?
KAWORU ("voice over," thinking to himself): Humans cannot create anything out of nothingness. Humans cannot accomplish anything without holding onto something. After all, humans are not gods.
SEELE 01 dissolves out of the sky.
SEELE 01: But there is one man who is trying to obtain power equal to that of God.
Now, consider what's happening. Keel is responding to the thoughts... inside Kaworu's head.
How is that possible? It may not be beyond reason that Kaworu's telepathic... but he never uses that ability elsewhere. Seele isn't made up of mind readers. So what's going on?
The answer, I believe, is that they aren't really there. What we have is an Ep. 25/26-style "self-interrogation"... Kaworu is sitting in the folding chair surrounded by imagined Seele constructs.
Why Seele, you ask? Well, all evidence points to Kaworu being a newly created being... a contingency plan, something Seele pulled out of the hat to screw Ikari. As such, he has no family... no friends. Seele is all Kaworu has ever known. Shinji may rely on fictional Asukas and Misatos when he steps into the black room... but all Kaworu has is Seele.
Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 11:29 GMT
I've been carrying this around for a while. Reichu's Revelations have inspired me to post and I'm very excited about laying it out.
There is a scene in Episode 24' ("... 'Knockin' on Heaven's Door'", [DC]) that I believe should NOT be taken at face value. I believe the scene has more in common with ep.s 25 & 26 than with anything else. In short: I don't believe the scene is actually happening. Or at least, not happening at the same time.
I'm talking about the "Seele Early-Morning Chat" addition to the Director's Cut.
The scene, as it opens, mirrors the one in which Shinji meets Kaworu for the first time:
Shinji ("voice over," thinking to himself): Everyone, including Toji and Kensuke, lost their homes and left. My friends... I don't have anyone I can call a friend anymore. There's no one. I can't go see Ayanami. I don't have the courage for it. I don't know how I'm supposed to face her. Asuka, Miss Misato, Mother... What should I... What should I do?
Later, Kaworu's predicament is much the same: What should I do?
KAWORU ("voice over," thinking to himself): Humans cannot create anything out of nothingness. Humans cannot accomplish anything without holding onto something. After all, humans are not gods.
SEELE 01 dissolves out of the sky.
SEELE 01: But there is one man who is trying to obtain power equal to that of God.
Now, consider what's happening. Keel is responding to the thoughts... inside Kaworu's head.
How is that possible? It may not be beyond reason that Kaworu's telepathic... but he never uses that ability elsewhere. Seele isn't made up of mind readers. So what's going on?
The answer, I believe, is that they aren't really there. What we have is an Ep. 25/26-style "self-interrogation"... Kaworu is sitting in the folding chair surrounded by imagined Seele constructs.
Why Seele, you ask? Well, all evidence points to Kaworu being a newly created being... a contingency plan, something Seele pulled out of the hat to screw Ikari. As such, he has no family... no friends. Seele is all Kaworu has ever known. Shinji may rely on fictional Asukas and Misatos when he steps into the black room... but all Kaworu has is Seele.
Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 11:29 GMT
- Tyrus [ANF]
- Embryo
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The other monoliths emerge:
SEELE 12: There is a man, who is not one of us, attempting to open Pandora's box again.
SEELE 04: There is a man trying to close the Box before the Hope at the bottom appears.
Think about it... just how are the holograms projecting? There is NO (functioning) machinery in that lake. Seele has nowhere to come from.
KAWORU: Hope? You're saying that is the Lilim's hope?
Kaworu arguing point/counterpoint with himself...
SEELE 10(?): Hope exists in as many forms as there are people.
SEELE 12: And that is because hope only exists within the hearts of people.
So this conversation never happened at all, right? Well... I wouldn't say that either. While Seele aren't here, right now, on the lake, I think the words Kaworu is imagining are based on things Seele actually said (remember, in Ep. 25/26, characters often twist the words of real-life conversations while "interrogating" themselves). Kaworu may be remembering some past interaction with Seele... his "mission brief" perhaps.
SEELE 01: However, our hope is becoming substantiated.
SEELE 04: That is Lilith, the progenitor of mankind who are the false successors from the black moon.
SEELE 10(?): And Adam, the progenitor of the Angels, who are the true successors from the lost white moon.
This, I believe, has Kaworu applying old information he learned to new circumstances:
SEELE 12: His salvaged soul exists only within you.
SEELE 01: However, his resurrected body already exists within Ikari.
KAWORU: Shinji's father. So he is also the same as me.
SEELE 01: That is why we entrust you with our wish.
With that, Seele dissipates, and Kaworu comes to the end of his dilemma:
KAWORU: I know. That's why I'm here now after all.
And here, finally, Anno just comes out and says what we are seeing:
Misato: It's no good. I can't read his lips from here. But he certainly is a shady character, going out for a walk so early in the morning to talk to himself.
There we have it... Misato can't see the monoliths. She has witnessed most (if not all) of the "conversation"... and sees that Kaworu's the only one there!
[Kaworu sees Misato looking through the binoculars]
Misato: He noticed me? No, it's not possible.
Kaworu decides that he will do what he was sent to do... sort of.
KAWORU: All will be as the Lilim direct it.
If you're going to take this scene as it plays, ask yourselves: how are the holograms operating? How is it that they're invisible to Misato and not Kaworu? Sure, you can explain it away by saying "we don't know how the technology works" or even "Tabris=Magic!" but me... I like my idea better.
Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 11:29 GMT
SEELE 12: There is a man, who is not one of us, attempting to open Pandora's box again.
SEELE 04: There is a man trying to close the Box before the Hope at the bottom appears.
Think about it... just how are the holograms projecting? There is NO (functioning) machinery in that lake. Seele has nowhere to come from.
KAWORU: Hope? You're saying that is the Lilim's hope?
Kaworu arguing point/counterpoint with himself...
SEELE 10(?): Hope exists in as many forms as there are people.
SEELE 12: And that is because hope only exists within the hearts of people.
So this conversation never happened at all, right? Well... I wouldn't say that either. While Seele aren't here, right now, on the lake, I think the words Kaworu is imagining are based on things Seele actually said (remember, in Ep. 25/26, characters often twist the words of real-life conversations while "interrogating" themselves). Kaworu may be remembering some past interaction with Seele... his "mission brief" perhaps.
SEELE 01: However, our hope is becoming substantiated.
SEELE 04: That is Lilith, the progenitor of mankind who are the false successors from the black moon.
SEELE 10(?): And Adam, the progenitor of the Angels, who are the true successors from the lost white moon.
This, I believe, has Kaworu applying old information he learned to new circumstances:
SEELE 12: His salvaged soul exists only within you.
SEELE 01: However, his resurrected body already exists within Ikari.
KAWORU: Shinji's father. So he is also the same as me.
SEELE 01: That is why we entrust you with our wish.
With that, Seele dissipates, and Kaworu comes to the end of his dilemma:
KAWORU: I know. That's why I'm here now after all.
And here, finally, Anno just comes out and says what we are seeing:
Misato: It's no good. I can't read his lips from here. But he certainly is a shady character, going out for a walk so early in the morning to talk to himself.
There we have it... Misato can't see the monoliths. She has witnessed most (if not all) of the "conversation"... and sees that Kaworu's the only one there!
[Kaworu sees Misato looking through the binoculars]
Misato: He noticed me? No, it's not possible.
Kaworu decides that he will do what he was sent to do... sort of.
KAWORU: All will be as the Lilim direct it.
If you're going to take this scene as it plays, ask yourselves: how are the holograms operating? How is it that they're invisible to Misato and not Kaworu? Sure, you can explain it away by saying "we don't know how the technology works" or even "Tabris=Magic!" but me... I like my idea better.
Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 11:29 GMT
- Mr. Tines [ANF]
- Bardiel
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- Reichu [ANF]
- Angel
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That scene is something that has pretty much defied all logic -- indeed, seeming to call for a rethinking of the "taking something at face value" bit.
So are you saying here that you think that Kaworu has only recently emerged from the mandorla? Is his image something he has 'chosen', or a form contiained within the casing anyway? My own default assumption is that he is not quite 'new to the world' - yeah, it seems likely that Seele - or Keel, more specifically - have been serving as his guardian, his guide, since his "Quickening" nine months after 2I. In this way, Kaworu has had ample time to arrive at all of the conclusions and observations about Lilim nature which he shares with Shinji, the same for his own True Self and her counterpart, and the arrival at the unflinching "fluency" he expresses with a body that is not truly is. I don' really think that what Kaworu shows us (including the love for music) really makes sense if he has been inside a mandorla up until recently, in a manner similar to the others, who amply demonstrate a much more developed sense of naivete when all is said and done.
In any case, interesting stuff, perhaps making up, in a way, for the absolute lack of "internal universe" scenes which we are given Kaworu. Reichu shall have to think about this more... much more...
Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 13:51 GMT
So are you saying here that you think that Kaworu has only recently emerged from the mandorla? Is his image something he has 'chosen', or a form contiained within the casing anyway? My own default assumption is that he is not quite 'new to the world' - yeah, it seems likely that Seele - or Keel, more specifically - have been serving as his guardian, his guide, since his "Quickening" nine months after 2I. In this way, Kaworu has had ample time to arrive at all of the conclusions and observations about Lilim nature which he shares with Shinji, the same for his own True Self and her counterpart, and the arrival at the unflinching "fluency" he expresses with a body that is not truly is. I don' really think that what Kaworu shows us (including the love for music) really makes sense if he has been inside a mandorla up until recently, in a manner similar to the others, who amply demonstrate a much more developed sense of naivete when all is said and done.
In any case, interesting stuff, perhaps making up, in a way, for the absolute lack of "internal universe" scenes which we are given Kaworu. Reichu shall have to think about this more... much more...
Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 13:51 GMT
Tyrus wrote:So this conversation never happened at all, right? Well… I wouldn't say that either. While Seele aren't here, right now, on the lake, I think the words Kaworu is imagining are based on things Seele actually said (remember, in Ep. 25/26, characters often twist the words of real-life conversations while “interrogating” themselves). Kaworu may be remembering some past interaction with Seele… his “mission brief” perhaps.
Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Kaworu has gone to the lake simply to reflect on his mission. This may indeed by happening only in Kaworu's head as some kind of stylized flashback to a conversation he actually had with SEELE, before he came to Tokyo-3. His "mission brief" as you say.
With this in mind, are the words Kaworu spoke here ones he said alound in front of SEELE, or words he was thinking as SEELE were talking, or simply new reflections he has thought of upon recalling the scene.
Another thought occurs? If this is a memory, how has Kaworu come by it? Was he conscious when conversing with SEELE? Or has this vision somehow been implanted in his memory while he was perhaps unconscious in his tank? Was Kaworu simlpy roused from sleep, with his mission, objectives and this "briefing" already implanted. Somewhat like Simon Phoenix in Demolition Man? I'm sure someone can come up with a more literary example.
Edit: The more I think about it, the more "right" an "Imaginary" view of this scene seems.
Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 19:27 GMT
- Reichu [ANF]
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Consider the possible merits of post #3 before you jump to any conclusions. The only "tanks" involved here is the one where Kaworu's mind pattern was digitized. Kaworu "hatched" from a mandorla. Read my exposition of Third Impact if this point STILL does not connect. You are, after all, supposed to base your impressions of this show on what is actually given, as opposed to outdated ideas that are blatantly disproven by realization of what we HAVE been given.
This is what I mean by the Hot Poker Syndrome. It is not unlike religious institutions who cling to the concepts of creationism and flat earth despite how abysmally wrong actual observations of the universe show that they are. (And if anyone reading is part of any said institutions, I'm sorry, but I live by science, even if you may not, and science is more relevant to NGE anyway.) I cannot emphasize the importance of this metaphor's veracity. I mean that 100%.
You must be aware of your own potential for human error and willing to admit your own mistakes and learn from them, otherwise you are violating everything Anno himself has been trying to tell us about fulfilling the good side of human potential.
Thank you for your time.
Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 21:26 GMT
This is what I mean by the Hot Poker Syndrome. It is not unlike religious institutions who cling to the concepts of creationism and flat earth despite how abysmally wrong actual observations of the universe show that they are. (And if anyone reading is part of any said institutions, I'm sorry, but I live by science, even if you may not, and science is more relevant to NGE anyway.) I cannot emphasize the importance of this metaphor's veracity. I mean that 100%.
You must be aware of your own potential for human error and willing to admit your own mistakes and learn from them, otherwise you are violating everything Anno himself has been trying to tell us about fulfilling the good side of human potential.
Thank you for your time.
Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 21:26 GMT
- Reichu [ANF]
- Angel
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- AchtungAffen [ANF]
- Shamshel
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- Reichu [ANF]
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Did you totally miss my exposition about Second Impact? See the Adam Embryo thread. Now.
And OMF, it's pertinent in that you have failed to acknowledge something I have quite soundly established in the Grand Scheme of Things. This is one of the things I keep on trying to relate the importance of, although sometimes I wonder if I am even being heard (or, rather, "read and registered").
Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 22:16 GMT
And OMF, it's pertinent in that you have failed to acknowledge something I have quite soundly established in the Grand Scheme of Things. This is one of the things I keep on trying to relate the importance of, although sometimes I wonder if I am even being heard (or, rather, "read and registered").
Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 22:16 GMT
- Tyrus [ANF]
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"My own default assumption is that he is not quite 'new to the world' - yeah, it seems likely that Seele - or Keel, more specifically - have been serving as his guardian, his guide, since his "Quickening" nine months after 2I."
Hmmmm... that probably makes more sense. But it begs the question: WHY would Seele allow him to exist? Isn't that... really, REALLY dangerous? (and I don't think they'd risk it for a 'contingency plan'... there's always the JSSDF, and raising a human angel "just in case" seems unrealistic)
It opens some interesting ideas, though. You'd have to think that Kaworu's relationship with Keel would be similar to the one between Shinji and Gendo... which gives Kaworu something else to sympathize with.
That Misato is in this scene at all is the biggest indication that it's "fake." There's no reason for her to be there. She sees it, I think, simply to tell us that it's not happening.
Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2005, 06:31 GMT
Hmmmm... that probably makes more sense. But it begs the question: WHY would Seele allow him to exist? Isn't that... really, REALLY dangerous? (and I don't think they'd risk it for a 'contingency plan'... there's always the JSSDF, and raising a human angel "just in case" seems unrealistic)
It opens some interesting ideas, though. You'd have to think that Kaworu's relationship with Keel would be similar to the one between Shinji and Gendo... which gives Kaworu something else to sympathize with.
That Misato is in this scene at all is the biggest indication that it's "fake." There's no reason for her to be there. She sees it, I think, simply to tell us that it's not happening.
Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2005, 06:31 GMT
- Reichu [ANF]
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Well, and there's my own hunch about why Misato is there... (I wonder what prompts the comment, "Everything is going according to the Lilim's plans"? Will need to think more.)
Something than I've attempted to relate in the Adam/embryo thread is that Keel:Kaworu as Gendo:Rei, which is part of completing the complete Kaworu:Rei equation. We already know who sent Kaworu, and that they're been keeping him busy over there (dummy plug preparation, for example). Sadamoto - the crazy guy who got my neurons firing in the first place - just puts this fact in your face with the somewhat, uh, homoerotic scene between Kaworu and Keel at the end of manga 8.
Another idle thought I have is about further parallelism at work here, regardless of how much we get to see of it:
Gendo:Naoko:Ritsuko::Keel:Katsuragi-hakase:Kaworu
For various reasons, I personally think that Kaworu "hatched" after a normal nine months. I mean, think about it... It just makes a much greater degree of sense, IMO, that Kaworu is not simply a regular Adanoko who opts for the Lilim form upon Quickening, but one who is essentially a normal Lilim conceived within an ovum of Adam and with her soul; and thus the remaining required human gestation time is spent inside the mandorla.
As for why Seele was keeping him around... Well, he seems like a pretty controlled guy, doesn't he? I guess we'll have to think about why this might be so. I mean, why on Earth is a kid with the soul of Adam, who knows who he is, not a little pissed off about the situation with the White Mooners?
Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2005, 06:47 GMT
Something than I've attempted to relate in the Adam/embryo thread is that Keel:Kaworu as Gendo:Rei, which is part of completing the complete Kaworu:Rei equation. We already know who sent Kaworu, and that they're been keeping him busy over there (dummy plug preparation, for example). Sadamoto - the crazy guy who got my neurons firing in the first place - just puts this fact in your face with the somewhat, uh, homoerotic scene between Kaworu and Keel at the end of manga 8.
Another idle thought I have is about further parallelism at work here, regardless of how much we get to see of it:
Gendo:Naoko:Ritsuko::Keel:Katsuragi-hakase:Kaworu
For various reasons, I personally think that Kaworu "hatched" after a normal nine months. I mean, think about it... It just makes a much greater degree of sense, IMO, that Kaworu is not simply a regular Adanoko who opts for the Lilim form upon Quickening, but one who is essentially a normal Lilim conceived within an ovum of Adam and with her soul; and thus the remaining required human gestation time is spent inside the mandorla.
As for why Seele was keeping him around... Well, he seems like a pretty controlled guy, doesn't he? I guess we'll have to think about why this might be so. I mean, why on Earth is a kid with the soul of Adam, who knows who he is, not a little pissed off about the situation with the White Mooners?
Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2005, 06:47 GMT
- Ornette [ANF]
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Reichu wrote:As for why Seele was keeping him around... Well, he seems like a pretty controlled guy, doesn't he? I guess we'll have to think about why this might be so. I mean, why on Earth is a kid with the soul of Adam, who knows who he is, not a little pissed off about the situation with the White Mooners?
maybe at first he didn't know who he is, kinda like Rei
Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2005, 07:05 GMT
- Reichu [ANF]
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- Dr. Nick [ANF]
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Interesting. I posted a short list of different possibilities here, but these new ones are definitely worth pondering as well. IMO, the mission brief flashback is probably the simplest and sanest option.
Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2005, 17:59 GMT
Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2005, 17:59 GMT
- Reichu [ANF]
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Tyrus got the ball rolling. My realizations about Armisael were the next step. One of the rules that Shin-seiki established is that "you never see the same thing just once". Well, even if you don't necessarily SEE something, it is certainly ALLUDED to, and that led to me to finally cracking the mystery of this absolutely mind-boggling scene once and for all...
Although Tyrus' fresh approach got the gears turning, Kaworu is, in actuality, not talking to ... verself. This is REALLY happening, RIGHT NOW.
The 15 monoliths. They say "SEELE" on them. They are numbered. Even though some of them are given the voices of Seele's members, their actual identities are hidden.
But not completely.
In episode #24, perhaps more than any other, things are not always as they seem.
What does the word "Seele" mean?
"Soul".
How many monoliths are there?
Fifteen.
The answer to the puzzle:
And people thought that this scene would never make any sense.
Originally posted on: 28-Jan-2006, 16:52 GMT
Although Tyrus' fresh approach got the gears turning, Kaworu is, in actuality, not talking to ... verself. This is REALLY happening, RIGHT NOW.
The 15 monoliths. They say "SEELE" on them. They are numbered. Even though some of them are given the voices of Seele's members, their actual identities are hidden.
But not completely.
In episode #24, perhaps more than any other, things are not always as they seem.
What does the word "Seele" mean?
"Soul".
How many monoliths are there?
Fifteen.
The answer to the puzzle:
And people thought that this scene would never make any sense.
Originally posted on: 28-Jan-2006, 16:52 GMT
- Seele08 [ANF]
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I did the hard work for you. Look beyond superficialities and trust Anno-tachi, and perhaps the stuff I didn't tell you about this scene will fall into place.
That is today's little present. If you can figure it out before the Big Day, then you'll be able to give yourself a huge pat on the back. If not -- oh, well.
Originally posted on: 28-Jan-2006, 17:11 GMT
That is today's little present. If you can figure it out before the Big Day, then you'll be able to give yourself a huge pat on the back. If not -- oh, well.
Originally posted on: 28-Jan-2006, 17:11 GMT
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